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Old 29th Dec 2012, 00:49   #81 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: europe
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The F100 although advanced for its time did have drawbacks, many were fitted with AHRS and without adequate DME updating the map could shift quite alot, I do not know of a GPS upgrade for the aircraft and the airline i operated them for had TAWS (EGPWS) fitted some 7 or 8 years ago, it is unlikely that this aircraft had TAWS fitted when new , therefore it is possible that it was retro fitted to this airframe. An NDB approach was not easy although the drift ball and (if well trained) the FPA was useful.

I always remember my sim instructor in the 1990s when converting onto the type preaching that when all the gizmos were starting to confuse and absorb the crew to throw them away and to always remember "its only a bloody aeroplane!" and revert to basics. "the kit although clever is perfectly capable of flying you into a mountain". Wise words.
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 05:51   #82 (permalink)
 
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#slim shady:

Since when was knowledge a prerequisite to post authoritatively on PPRuNe?
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 19:41   #83 (permalink)
 
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@bluepilot: that particular model was a 650-15 unlike the KLM jets that were 620-15 a la F70. The KLM jets had AHRS.

That jet had triple IRS: there is no DME / DME updating in that area. Once you leave the Mandalay VOR you are on your own:the Heho NDB is next to useless, in a valley 3600ft above MSL. If you can't do a visual approach the chance of getting in is slim.

The road that runs perpendicular to the runway axis has power lines to the south: it may be an error setting the local QNH.

@bob - there is no LIKE button on here :-)
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Old 3rd Jan 2013, 00:44   #84 (permalink)
JFA
 
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I was under the impression that KLM had a mix of 650-15 F100's with triple FCC and triple IRS, which was the top notch config available.

Also, FMS approaches are not allowed in the Fokker 100, but if used wisely, can make NPA's, specially NDB, much, much, much safer. You don't have to be in a 3rd world country to start an approach only to find your ADF needles just frozen. Happened to me more times than i would like, but you gotta relate all the information available to the crew and don't screw with the MDA.

I flew F100's with 3 AHRS over the Atlantic to the beautiful Madeira Island, it always found us that piece of land, but we had some drift events.
With 3 IRS's, if everything is checked out and operated correctly, you have a better gun than ADF needles, even after 150NM navigating only on IRS sources.
FMS navigation, like i said before, is a good source for cross-reference, on the Fokker 100, is a supplemental means of navigation.

I am sorry for the loss of life, my condolences to the families of those who where victims of this tragic event.

Last edited by JFA; 3rd Jan 2013 at 01:05.
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Old 3rd Jan 2013, 13:54   #85 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Shady is correct the KLM F100s were TAY620-15 with triple AHRS, the F70s had twin IRS, KLM later aquired 5 used F100s with 650-15 engines with triple IRS. All F100s have been retired and only the F70s remain in service.

I am informed that this airframe was ex BMI so probably did have triple IRS, not that that makes a huge difference given the challenges to the crew on the day with primative NDB equipment and terrain issues.
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Old 7th Jan 2013, 17:57   #86 (permalink)
 
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F100 SYSTEMS

I second the above comments on flyability and updating

NDBs were very easy as groundspeed and track were clearly displayed, what else do you want. On an ILS you did not get DME if the wrong runway was entered, not sure how this would be presented on a non ILS runway

There was a problem that the systems were designed for european operation and so if out of dme range for some time perculiar effects could be seen. The system seemed to assume that any errors were due to system drift and allow for it in future but if the percieved drift was due to poor dme quality the system could correct for non existing drift and induce an error
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Old 21st Mar 2013, 15:59   #87 (permalink)


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A bit of history

As befits my age, I have only just become aware of the crash (thanks to Airliner World) Something jogged my memory about 11327 and sure enough, it was an aircraft that I worked on at EMA, when it flew for British Midland. (I still cannot call it bmi). Its always sad to hear bad news of an old friend.
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Old 22nd Mar 2013, 11:18   #88 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
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My most stressful flight ever was on a F100 as we lost our Nav dsiplays during a dirty dive into Sofia during the Yugoslavian conflict.
A cheap system which would drop out if you lost the two DMEs that it calculated it's position from. Did the same if the two were were on the same axis as the aircraft (gva).
So you had to dive into your briefcase, find the chart, tune the nav aids.....

Similarly the all talking autothrottle didn't work in open descent - we had two stall warnings flying into Nice during visual approaches before it was realised that it didn't do what it was supposed to do.

The first the crews knew that the autothrottle wasn't working was the shakers.

Then it had a useless undercarriage - I grounded an aircraft once to be told by the guy who was responsible for the original acceptance that he had refused the aircraft...SR modified it and Marichetti? Built a new one which failed with the press on board.
Wrong aircraft for a flag carrier.
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Old 24th Mar 2013, 02:06   #89 (permalink)
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Thumbs up

Fokker 28...ala Piedmont/Henson had no T/R's...
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Old 25th Mar 2013, 10:06   #90 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 58
Posts: 2,319
Quote:
...nobody seems to have mentioned the bloody big hole in the side of the nacelle..
How about engine components which, nanoseconds before, where whizzing around at warp factor snot, escaping when asked to stop in the blink of an eye?

There also appears to be some rather high expectations of an investigation. Analysing CVR and FDR data requires a great deal of expertise - if they were working. And then who will be doing the investigation? I'll suggest that there is not a great deal of experience in this country. Unfortunately, normal procedure in this part of the world is to find the captain and blame him.

However, if you consider these questions:

Was there a DME?
Was the runway lit (are lights installed)?
Was there an official approach?
What were the minima for that approach?
What are the restrictions if the NDB was U/S?
When was the NDB last tested?
What was the weather on the day?
What were the planning minima?
What do the airline's procedures say about operating at Heho?
How much fuel was carried?
What was the technical status of the aircraft?
What was the background of the pilots?

etc...

Unless each of these has a reasonably positive answer, this will just be another "Third World Jungle Crash", of which we will see more of as this part of the world gets richer.

Top Tip: Don't fly "Third World" if you want first world safety.
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Old 26th Mar 2013, 22:31   #91 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2006
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Flight Data Recorders were sent to Singapore, but got refused, then sent to Australia for read out and analyses.
In answer to your questions:

Was there a DME?
- there is no DME at Heho.
Was the runway lit (are lights installed)?
- the runwa is not lighted.
Was there an official approach?
- there are NDB approaches (with high minima) to both runways
What were the minima for that approach?
- between 4500 and 5700 ft altitude depending on the charts
What are the restrictions if the NDB was U/S?
- no IFR approach possible
When was the NDB last tested?
- good question, let's say the indication is stable 3 NM inbound
What was the weather on the day?
- fog in the morning, otherwise clear
What were the planning minima?
- see approach minima
What do the airline's procedures say about operating at Heho?
- not much I reckon!
How much fuel was carried?
- usually plenty as fuel is tankered into Heho
What was the technical status of the aircraft?
- reliable sources tell me it left of lot to be desired...
What was the background of the pilots?
- local
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