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Old 14th Oct 2012, 23:50   #21 (permalink)
 
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I can only imagine the true facts here.

It strikes me that if there is a fire in the cockpit that there would be little women & children and passengers first BS beside the crew exiting the perceived and severe threat ASAP at the very front.

Orderly evacuation in that case would be expected only at the mid and aft doors.

I'm happy to be corrected if a published SOP was violated or that passengers were beaten back by the crew with batons
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Old 15th Oct 2012, 08:04   #22 (permalink)
 
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Media follow up

Norwegian media has followed up the events, and I have edited and featured the parts that has to do with the crew. Translation is Google with minor adjustments to make it understandable:

Rasende flypassasjerer til VG: - Flyvertinnene forlot flyet uten å hjelpe oss - VG Nett om Luftfart

- My boyfriend was the last to leave the plane. He helped a family with children out. The crew was missing. Nobody saw anything of them, and we do not know where they went. There was no one to receive us at the bottom of slides, says Lene Orvik to VG Nett.

AP this afternoon talking with a number of passengers who were aboard the charter plane that night caught fire on the runway in Antalya, Turkey.

Everyone tells the same story: Flight attendants left the plane first. And the crew's behavior reinforced the chaos that prevailed in the dramatic minutes.

When panic broke out on board the aircraft, the crew were the first who left the burning plane, claimed passengers VG has spoken to. - The crew was missing. Nobody saw anything of them, and we do not know where they were, says Lene stator.
- There was a flight attendant right diagonally in front of me who spoke about safety procedures. She was missing during evacuation.I have the impression that it broke out greater panic among flight attendants than among passengers. I saw them afterwards, says Tine Norsted (29) from Trondheim to VG.

Lene Stator, which is one of the most prolific bloggers in Norway, sat in the middle of the plane when she saw smoke poured into the cabin further ahead.

- I shouted that we had fire, but the stewardess told me to calm me down. Then she turned and saw the flames themselves, and shouted, "Get out, run!". Then it was complete panic. People began to push in, the kids were pinned to the floor, said Stator.

- I was sure I was going to die. When you stand in the middle between a hundred people squeezed in a plane with fire and smoke spreading there, you think that this is the end. Luckily we taxied out when it started to burn. Had this happened in the air, we had not had a chance, said stator.

- Those who received the passengers who went out behind the aircraft performed well. But flight attendants inside the aircraft appeared frantic, waving arms and cried, saying Viggo Skålsvik (58) from Verdal.

Others saw nothing of flight attendants at all.

- Flight attendants were gone in a flash right after this happened. No one saw anything of them. Everyone cursed at them because they did not do what they should do. No one saw anything of them, says Ida Marie Kveli Selvik (19) from Namsos.

- Attendant's job is to make sure that passengers get out. So if these statements are true, they have broken with the procedures. Then the airline has an explanatory problem, says Jo Bear Skat Violence, Head of Air Safety Committee in the Norwegian Pilots Association.

- The same rule applies to an aircraft as any other vessel: The captain has the ultimate responsibility. He should be the last to go, says Skat Violence.

Last edited by paparomeodelta; 15th Oct 2012 at 08:07. Reason: forgot link
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Old 15th Oct 2012, 08:57   #23 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
- Attendant's job is to make sure that passengers get out. So if these statements are true, they have broken with the procedures. Then the airline has an explanatory problem, says Jo Bear Skat Violence, Head of Air Safety Committee in the Norwegian Pilots Association.

- The same rule applies to an aircraft as any other vessel: The captain has the ultimate responsibility. He should be the last to go, says Skat Violence.
The crew are no use dead.

Perhaps in this instance they gathered upwind at a safe distance?
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Old 15th Oct 2012, 10:06   #24 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
SOP for the Flt deck to exit via cockpit DV windows
I thought DV windows were tiny - just enough to peer through. At least they were in a Canberra and DC3. You might be just able to push a rabbit through them but nothing larger. What sort of aircraft are you discussing here?
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Old 15th Oct 2012, 10:55   #25 (permalink)

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"The crew are no use dead.

Perhaps in this instance they gathered upwind at a safe distance?"



I belive you may be clutching at straws sir.
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Old 15th Oct 2012, 11:06   #26 (permalink)
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The old Avro 748 had ropes stowed beside the dv windows for drivers to get out with. Bit of a squeeze if you're over 12 stone though.
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Old 15th Oct 2012, 11:09   #27 (permalink)
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A37575 - Boeing DV windows are big enough for most pilots to exit through, although it is no mean feat and the ensuing drop to the ground if you get it wrong can kill.

Regarding 'SOPs', my training said that as a Captain (and F/O) my primary escape route was via the cabin where I would assist with the passenger evacuation ('primary duty' and all that) and only where this was not possible was the window to be used. Note we do not know this airline's procedures.
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Old 15th Oct 2012, 12:27   #28 (permalink)
 
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But according to witnesses they DID escape via the cabin, but WITHOUT helping the passengers evacuate. Manners...
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Old 15th Oct 2012, 13:06   #29 (permalink)
 
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Could this be the classic scenario of "the captain shall be the last to leave the a/c. If I pass you on the way out you are to assume the rank of captain." Safety brief over.
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Old 15th Oct 2012, 13:38   #30 (permalink)

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Regarding the size of DV windows, you'd be surprised. I did "dunker" training on helicopters years ago. The cabin window was pretty small, and with a waistcoat life-raft strapped on the average pilot was of greater size than the window. Having been rolled and pitched underwater, everyone managed to get out of the "too small" window. I agree with BOAC though; the DV window is a "secondary" escape. It's a long drop if you get it wrong.
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Old 15th Oct 2012, 15:40   #31 (permalink)
 
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The B737 has an 'escape rope' that you are supposed to dangle out from when using the windows as an escape route. Being a 737 F/O Myself, training has thought us to use the window has an alternatif if the normal escape route ( Doors ) cannot be used.
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Old 15th Oct 2012, 16:21   #32 (permalink)
 
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Ok from my company manual and in my opinion how it should be:

Flight deck crew:
Quote:

- Put on life vest if req, take flashlight


- Captain: take along PBE, if req.


- Proceed to cabin


- Assist with evacuation


- Captain : check all occupants have evacuated.


- Leave aircraft.

Last edited by sleeper; 15th Oct 2012 at 16:22.
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Old 15th Oct 2012, 16:24   #33 (permalink)
 
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Only if you cannot check the aircraft for reasons as : completely on fire and unable to proceed into cabin, Then it is time to leave and save yourself.
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Old 15th Oct 2012, 17:46   #34 (permalink)
 
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Barbara Harrison must be turning in her grave ...
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Old 15th Oct 2012, 17:53   #35 (permalink)
 
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Good point!!!

Wiki:
On 8 April 1968, BOAC Flight 712 left Heathrow Airport, bound indirectly for Sydney. Soon after take-off, the Boeing 707's number two engine caught fire and fell from the plane's port wing. The aircraft managed to land two-and-a-half minutes later, but fire continued to engulf the wing and spread to the fuselage. Harrison and a steward inflated the escape chute at the aft of the plane but it became entangled and the steward had to climb down to free it for use and was unable to return.[5]
Harrison stayed at her station and helped passengers to escape as fire consumed the plane, encouraging them to jump and in some cases simply pushing them out to safety. As the fire spread, escape from the rear of the aircraft became impossible and she led the remaining passengers to another exit. She refused to leave the plane to save herself and her body was found near that of a disabled pensioner, seated in one of the last rows. She is buried in Fulford Cemetery in York.[6]
[edit]
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Old 15th Oct 2012, 21:31   #36 (permalink)
 
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Devotion to duty:-

Quote:
For the gallantry she showed in helping the passengers escape the burning aircraft, Queen Elizabeth II awarded Harrison a posthumous George Cross (GC), the only GC awarded to a woman in peacetime.[7][8] The award was published in a supplement to the London Gazette of 7 August 1968 (dated 8 August 1969).[8] Harrison's medal was accepted on her behalf by her father, Alan.[5] Harrison is the youngest female recipient of the George Cross.
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Old 15th Oct 2012, 22:42   #37 (permalink)
 
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DV Windows

A37575 wonders what sort of aircraft we are talking about. His pseudonym is obviously misleading. All the civil (commercial) aircraft I have flown have DV windows as escape routes. On a light note, on a flight on "the gripper", an old granny of a captain remarked
" You do realise, I hope, that the eyebrow sunshade you are using is blocking your escape rope?"
Bemused F/O, peering down at the Med some 6 miles below:
"I don't think it will reach!"
Also, when teaching in the sim I have often been surprised at how many students do not know what DV even stands for.
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Old 15th Oct 2012, 22:57   #38 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Barbara Harrison must be turning in her grave ...
Agreed, although she preferred to be addressed as Jane.
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Old 15th Oct 2012, 23:14   #39 (permalink)
 
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Looks like this China Airlines crew did a better job with their 738 Okinawa fire. Flight crew came out last with ropes from cockpit. No CC running away either.

China Airlines Flight 120 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia







Last edited by armchairpilot94116; 15th Oct 2012 at 23:21.
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Old 16th Oct 2012, 06:47   #40 (permalink)
 
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Devil

Quote:
1capt Non smoking both and an F/o and another cpt Lady on the jumpseat
.... so please clarify:
1. Both Capt and F/O Non Smoking ( or non smokers ??)
2. Capt Lady ( on Jump seat ) was not smoking, but did she extinguish last one properly ? In plastic glass with some or w/o any more coffee ?

Would not be first time, in other airplanes all over the world. Plastic glasses with some tea or coffee used as an ash-tray, BUT when they catch fire they burn real quick. Can anybody refresh: that B-52 on patrol over western part of Greenland and after a fire in cockpit all crew bailed out, leaving airplane to crash with all of its atomic bombs on stand-by, some 40-50 years ago.
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