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Old 4th Feb 2012, 14:09   #61 (permalink)
 
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He negotiates reduced landing fees, the airport makes more money from selling the food & drink that he does not provide on the flight to more passengers than they had before.
Both sides win.

Most airports make most of their money nowadays from selling stuff to the passengers who have to check in earlier due to the security circus and then sit around for 2 hours with nothing to do but spend money.
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Old 4th Feb 2012, 16:44   #62 (permalink)
 
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Unless every other carrier is given the same concessions that Ryanair gets, it is still a subsidy and is anti-competitive.
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Old 4th Feb 2012, 17:05   #63 (permalink)
 
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There will be no jobs for the F/Os at Ryanair from Malev. Experience counts for nothing in the modern world of LCCs.

Having been out of work as an experienced F/O, and being up against the cadets, it is a depressing outlook. Unfortunately, you will have to go out of Europe for work. Still, even that must be better than taking it up the ass by joining Wizz or RYR.
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Old 4th Feb 2012, 17:09   #64 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Unless every other carrier is given the same concessions that Ryanair gets, it is still a subsidy and is anti-competitive.
If other airlines deliver the same number of passengers then they will.
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Old 4th Feb 2012, 17:57   #65 (permalink)
 
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Where will the Fat Lady sing next Friday ?

Two Fridays, two airline closures, they say bad things happen in threes, so, who do we reckon is going to shut up shop on Friday 10th Feb 2012 ?
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Old 4th Feb 2012, 18:15   #66 (permalink)
 
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last friday?

which airline closed last week?

cheers!
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Old 4th Feb 2012, 18:40   #67 (permalink)
 
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Spanair.

----
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Old 5th Feb 2012, 07:16   #68 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Unless every other carrier is given the same concessions that Ryanair gets, it is still a subsidy and is anti-competitive.
What makes you think that other carrires don't enjoy the same concessions?
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Old 5th Feb 2012, 07:37   #69 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
What makes you think that other carrires don't enjoy the same concessions?
Quote:
German carriers win right to challenge Ryanair over subsidies.
Quote:
airberlin and Lufthansa win right to challenge Ryanair over alleged subsidies
Quote:
Ryanair today vowed to launch an appeal against an EU decision ordering the Irish discount airline to repay subsidies it received at Charleroi
Quote:
Air France is angry at low-cost Irish carrier Ryanair which it said is getting unfair subsidies from European regional governments

Quote:
French city scraps subsidies to 'blackmailing' Ryanair. A French city said Wednesday it was ending the subsidies it pays Ryanair to maintain flights there

Quote:
Ryanair received a subsidy from the Balearic Government

Quote:
several courts have already brought up the matter of Ryanair's subsidies, namely in Spain, France, Germany and Italy

Quote:
Ryanair Returns to Girona and Reus, Spanish Taxpayers to Thank


All are from industry industry press items.
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Old 5th Feb 2012, 07:46   #70 (permalink)
 
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Well, Malev was shot down by Brussels because it was subsidized, which they consider illegal. Yet, Malev was important for Hungary as a flag carrier and ensured that Hungary was connected by public transport with most European cities.

So why is it legal then that FR and others are getting paid to fly routes which would otherwise be not economically viable? Just because it is important that these cities are connected to others for the local governments?

What the hell is the difference?

Either you want market only and are prepared to see hundreds of flight connections stopped, because they could not live out of their own. OR, you want these connections and then subsidies need to be part of the game.

You can't have it both ways.

How about running public transport like trains this way? you'd end up with lots of villages, cities and others without any connection to the outside world. So trains and other public transport is subsidized and nobody really opposes this because without it, there would be no coverage worth mentioning and you'd end up with ghetto cities and ghost villages all over the place.

So why the hell should a country not be allowed to have a state run and subsidized flag carrier if it so decides?

Or wait, under the new hegemonial rule of the Brussels figureheads, there are no countries anymore, just European provinces? And is it a coincidence, that one of those provinces has a non grata prime minister at the very time that it's flag carrier has the rug pulled from below it?

Malev was serving major cities and connections. Ryan and Wizz will serve their typical "proximity" airports anywhere within 100 miles from those cities. They are no replacement for what Malev used to do. And they do get paid subsidies just as Malev did, but under the different name of local incentive payments or whatever it's called when a region pais them to fly to airports the large carriers won't touch.

The LCCs and their subsidized low cost airports have their reason of being. But so do flag carriers in countries which otherwise become even more isolated and ready for the big take over.

Somehow I hope that Hungary will succeed in rising a sucessor out of the ashes like Bulgaria did when Balkan went bust after a corruption ridden privatisation scandal. Bulgaria Air is doing fine these days, despite Wizz and Ryan giving some money to Plovdiv and the other airports on the side.
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Old 5th Feb 2012, 08:14   #71 (permalink)
 
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Stuckgear

As every one of your examples has to do with FR,do you have some prejudice against them?
There IS a difference between national governments pumping money into eternally loss making airlines and local authorities attracting successful airlines to their locality which may,at least,create jobs and,in some cases,massively increase tourism to the area.
...........and AN2,have you forgotten Sabena,Alitalia,Swissair etc?All bloated airlines with over-optimistic route structures and lo-costs weren't even on the sidelines at most airports.Two were in EEC founding countries,whereas this thread is being made to appear as though it's an anti -Eastern Europe thing.
I have Hungarian relatives and I believe most are astonished,with the country on it's knees and massive personal taxation,Malev lasted this long.
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Old 5th Feb 2012, 08:43   #72 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
have you forgotten Sabena,Alitalia,Swissair
As a former Swissair employee, I certainly did not forget Swissair and how it's end came about. And the pressure the EU exercised against the non-EU Swiss government which lead to them letting it go down. And the fact that the re-emerged successful carrier was sold for peanuts to Germany, where it's the cash cow for it's mother now.

The impact this scandal and the way it was dealt with had on our country is felt until today. Whatever trust I had in the country ended that day. It has never been restored and Switzerland has been on the decline since. Looking at the renewed attacks on our sovereignity in recent months, the country's failure to back Swissair will at some stage be remembered as the beginning of the end.

Swissair failed because of an ill conceived expansion plan, not because it was internally weak or unprofitable. Swissair failed, because it's parent company severely misjudged the risks and badly executed the take overs of namely Sabena and AOM. Not because it was a bad product.

Ever since this happened, this country's self confidence has all but disappeared. It will probably end one day by Anschluss to the EU, something which politicians here crave for since a long time. It all started with the end of one of the most respected airlines of the world.

Tell me. If British Airways or Air France would ever fold, do you think that any government under which this happens would survive this? No way. Likewise with Lufthansa, who btw is doing EXACTLY the same thing now then what Swissair's Hunter Strategy was about with high success. Could a German government survive a bancruptcy of Lufthansa? Never.

You mention Alitalia. If the same criteria would have been applied to it as it has been to Malev, Alitalia would have been gone YEARS ago. It is still there.

A country whose flag carrier disappears has to a large extent lost it's national identity and it's representation in the world. Hungary better consider this and see that they re-start something else which deserves to carry their flag. Otherwise, they might well pull the flag of their parliament building as well.
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Old 5th Feb 2012, 09:05   #73 (permalink)

 
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AN2 Driver

Anyone who talks about there being flag carriers in the EU is living 20 years in the past.
In your mind, then, what's the flag carrier of Ireland, Aer Lingus or Ryanair?

I agree with some of your reasons for the demise of Swissair, but you forgot to mention the years of operating long haul (subsidised?) services out of Geneva: a questionable business strategy.
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Old 5th Feb 2012, 09:28   #74 (permalink)
 
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Black kettle,
Quote:
The difference is fundamental.Most FR subsidies are from airports or regional authorities trying to get flights where there may well otherwise be none,and to a successful,rather than eternally loss making outfit.Rather different to a national government trying to prop up an airline despite EC rules totally forbidding it,and where there are perhaps plenty of profitable operators to step in without tax payers money being wasted.
I donīt agree with you. Money comes to the company,neither MOL nor any other CEO will care about where it origins. MOL has shown time and again how loyal and dependent a business partner he is. RYR and its likes competes a lot with the 'normal' carriers and the well payed jobs that pay a lot into social security and the tax system going down the drain put the cost of the LCCs to public up again.

The real issue is, that these things are not considered when making the comparison. Any sane airport management/local politician honestly thinking he will gain from RYR when complying to their condititions is dead wrong. If they would, MOL would have invented the perpetuum mobile. I think he is a smart dude, but not that smart....
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Old 5th Feb 2012, 10:00   #75 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
There IS a difference between national governments pumping money into eternally loss making airlines and local authorities attracting successful airlines to their locality which may,at least,create jobs and,in some cases,massively increase tourism to the area.
In one case, taxpayer money flows from a central government to prop up legacy carriers, in order to maintain employment/tourism/national pride.

In the other case, taxpayer money flows from regional governments to regional airports to subsidise low-cost carriers coming in order to create employment/tourism.

I can't see any "fundamental", or moral difference.
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Old 5th Feb 2012, 11:05   #76 (permalink)
 
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black kettle,
Quote:
As every one of your examples has to do with FR,do you have some prejudice against them?
Nope. FR is by and large a successful business model and that has to be applauded, it has however had detrimental impacts in the industry. They provide income to many flight crews but have also set a standard that sees T&C's lowered.

I am no lover of FR, I am no hater of FR.

FR is a large player of the EU subsidy game and that was why those examples were given. If you are attempting to imply an open bias from myself against FR, you are looking for monsters under the bed .

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Old 5th Feb 2012, 12:07   #77 (permalink)
 
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OT



Well said Stuckgear, one of the most balanced posts on Ryanair I've seen. I could add that the FR business model doesn't necessarily require the animosity and general disagreeable attitude (towards both pax AND crew) we associate with O'Leary's company. It could be the best place to work in Europe (and one of the best-paying) just as Southwest, the first LCC, is probably the best place to work as a pilot in the US.

But THAT would take real management skills, not just the killer shark instinct MOL possesses.
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Old 5th Feb 2012, 16:26   #78 (permalink)
 
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main dog,

thank you. FR does exactly what it says on the tin. and no one should expect more or less from them from providing what they do.

O'Leary, love him or hate him, is from an accountancy background (KPMG, IIRCC), so no one should be surprised otherwise if he runs the operation purely on figures and numbers.

As such, he is highly in tune of what subsidies he is able to leverage from the EU to help his bottom line. Can anyone decry O'Leary for that ? No. He is doing what is best for his P&L statements.

Any issues, conflicts, problems etc. with subsidies lies with the EU, the and if the EU wish to subsidise, one airline, not another that is their failing.

The operational environment for carriers in the EU is a farce, and that is the fault of the EU.

As I said before, when we have politicians that stand up for and promote the industry, we will see change, until then nonsense policy and a percentage point here or there of a fringe vote seems to take precedence over the billions that the aviation industry earns in taxes for governments, the billions generated in direct and indirect employment.

Governments and bureaucrats have choked the the golden goose for all it is worth; it's at the point of extinction. When they've regulated and taxed aviation out of the EU, what are they going to do then ?

Of course they wont give a stuff because they'll still have their gold plated, index linked, public sector pensions and hubris to keep them warm at night.

And AN2-Driver pointed out:

Quote:
Well, Malev was shot down by Brussels because it was subsidized, which they consider illegal. Yet, Malev was important for Hungary as a flag carrier and ensured that Hungary was connected by public transport with most European cities.
Quote:
So why is it legal then that FR and others are getting paid to fly routes which would otherwise be not economically viable? Just because it is important that these cities are connected to others for the local governments?
Quote:
under the new hegemonial rule of the Brussels figureheads, there are no countries anymore, just European provinces? And is it a coincidence, that one of those provinces has a non grata prime minister at the very time that it's flag carrier has the rug pulled from below it?
it's equally worth a point a point of consideration that Malev also paid the price for Hungary's position on the EU Veto:

Hungary, alone with UK, said vetoing plan for further EU integration seen as vital to eurozone rescue | Politics.hu

No conspiracy theories, but political reality: perhaps a factor in the consideration of illegal subsidies in the EU, while the EU subsidises elsewhere, which it considers legal, despite having legal cases drawn against them. Maybe Malev were caught in 'perfect storm' of political leverage? who can say? I have no evidence either way. Either way though, as above, the operational environment for carriers in the EU is farce and it needs addressing before the golden goose is dead and buried.
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Old 5th Feb 2012, 21:01   #79 (permalink)
 
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I haven't really thought through the EU legality around the alleged differences between Malev receiving subsidies from the Hungarian Government and Ryanair receiving ' Incentives ' from Regional and City Governments....

However, for those of you posting here that it is acceptable for Brussels to interfere and dictate to the Hungarian Government ( and previously the Italain Government ) what and how those currently independent Governments can do with their own tax revenues....If you genuinely believe that is acceptable or desirable - then beware !!

Because the logical follow-on from that is that you no longer really need your own National Governments anymore and therefore you will no doubt be quite happy to accept their dissolution and replacement by Regional Governments funded from the EU's central funds, which would, of course, need to collect all 100% of all taxes paid throughout the EU before deciding how to redistribute them....

Sounds crazy ?? Well, if 15 years ago you had been told that these same unelected EU Commissioners in Brussels would require member Governments to submit their own economic plans and budgets for review and approval by a a German based Central European Bank, you would have said that that idea was crazy too....

As the phrase goes - Be careful what you wish for....
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Old 5th Feb 2012, 21:11   #80 (permalink)
 
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Hussar 54

Like lots of Europeans, Hungarians are not having an easy time financially. Maybe you would care to ask them whether they want the taxes they pay out of their tight incomes to be spent on subsidies so they can fly to Frankfurt on Malev, or whether they want to pay less tax and fly to FRA on Lufthansa.

Of course, tax-and-subsidise governments will never ask the people.
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