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Old 20th Aug 2010, 02:58   #441 (permalink)
 
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Can we be sure these transcripts are the real copy of CVR ?
And the DFDR data is required to match the panic. But that will most probably never come out.
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Old 20th Aug 2010, 06:20   #442 (permalink)
 
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The above are transcripts from the ATC recordings not teh CVR, the Court has promised that it will release the CVR during public Hearing at Delhi.... 6th September

So far we don't even have exact crash time in public domain... I fail to undestand why CVR/DFDR cannot be released before hearing... may be they don't want informed questions or witnesses at hearing... a ploy to safeguard own incompetence...

The court provided excuse that forensic labs have not given details of Viscera of deceased pilots, and the investigators were not able to query deceased captains widow on what kind of medications he was on, because of VISA problems...

Even though court has promised they are not going after blame-worthiness instead after opportunities to find and correct systemic flaws... the secrecy being practiced puts the intentions to question.

Apparently when a journo showed the court that they already have the 'leaked' ATC transcripts court stated,

Quote:
"We have received the decoded data of DFDR and CVR. I don't know how ATC transcript got out earlier, but what you got on Wednesday was authentic"
Of course the court is not a cautious speaker.
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Old 20th Aug 2010, 15:58   #443 (permalink)
 
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So did the F/O intentionally press the PTT when he asked the Capt to Go-Around so that it would be on ATC record ?
Maybe his previous "advice" was ignored by the Capt.
Is the query on possible medications just routine?
i guess the only way to find out is to show up at the public hearing,where is the venue?
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Old 20th Aug 2010, 21:17   #444 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
So did the F/O intentionally press the PTT when he asked the Capt to Go-Around so that it would be on ATC record ?
Maybe his previous "advice" was ignored by the Capt
Maybe you should swap your "APTL" for ATPL, and never ignore "advice" from your F/O.

To comment your first Question. As aircraft was in a position to crash, if you were in the seat of that F/O, all your hairs would go straight,
and of course you would most probably TX
EITHER by error instead (to Capt. via intercom), to ATC,
OR just did (as he did) very correctly with one transmission, informing his Capt. and informing ATC of next action.

Tike ?

Last edited by Green Guard; 21st Aug 2010 at 12:48.
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Old 20th Aug 2010, 22:43   #445 (permalink)
 
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He actually has an, uh, ALTP. Or is that the union?
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Old 20th Aug 2010, 23:14   #446 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
So did the F/O intentionally press the PTT when he asked the Capt to Go-Around so that it would be on ATC record ?
Maybe his previous "advice" was ignored by the Capt.
Is the query on possible medications just routine?
i guess the only way to find out is to show up at the public hearing,where is the venue?
In my speculation it seems a deliberate action that the F/O pressed the PTT, and for the same reason as you mentioned.

It better be that his previous advice were rejected by Captain, else we are going down to ugly on a good-bad-and-ugly scale.

Apparently the query on medicine is regular...

Not sure of the venue.... but I am sure it will be crowded, mostly by media..



Quote:
Maybe you should swap your APTL for ATPL, and never ignore "advice" from your F/O.
Thats a very revealing statement.
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Old 8th Sep 2010, 16:54   #447 (permalink)
 
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Mangalore Air crash due to pilot's error Mumbai, Sep.8 (ANI): An investigation into the four month old Mangalore Air crash that involved death of 158 lives, has revealed that the mishap occurred due to pilot's error.

An analysis of audio on the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) shows that the Air India Express Boeing 737 was incorrectly aligned to the runway while attempting to land, an NDTV report stated on Wednesday evening.

It has been found that the plane, the audio recording establishes, was too high to make a safe landing and the Ground Proximity Warning System sounded several times.

The co-pilot is heard on the audio asking the captain, a pilot of Serbian origin, to abort landing. "We don't have enough runway left," the co-pilot told the captain, as heard on the audio.

It has also been found that Thrust reversers, critical braking systems on jetliners, were applied late, only after the Boeing 737-800 jet was 6000 feet down the length of 8038 foot runway.

The Bajpe airport in Mangalore has a table-top runway with steep cliffs on all sides.

On May 22, the Air India Express Boeing overshot the runway and plunged down a ravine bursting into flames. It was 6:05 am.

The only survivors from among the 160 passengers and six crew members on board were those who were thrown off the plane.

The Boeing 737-800, which was inducted on January 15, 2008, was being piloted by a British national of Serbian origin, Captain Zlatko Glusica, who, Civil Aviation Minister Praful Patel later said had 7,000 hours as a pilot in command, with over 2000 of those on a Boeing.

He was familiar with the Mangalore airport and had landed there 19 times, the Minister had stated.

The Indian co-pilot, HS Ahluwalia, had landed at Mangalore airport 66 times. (ANI)
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Old 9th Sep 2010, 00:27   #448 (permalink)
 
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Should the GPWS be sounding alerts if the aircraft is high? And in landing configuration?
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Old 9th Sep 2010, 00:32   #449 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Should the GPWS be sounding alerts if the aircraft is high? And in landing configuration?
I'm guessing that it alerted to an excessive sink rate below a prescribed altitude. That would be consistent with an aircraft high on approach.
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Old 9th Sep 2010, 00:36   #450 (permalink)
 
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aditya104. The term in the article is simply "high" which is vague. It also doesn't say what warning sounded whether it was "sink rate" or "Terrain" or what. It's entirely possible that the pilot experienced it before and treated it as a nuisance alarm. I wouldn't draw any specific conclusions based up that published report.
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Old 9th Sep 2010, 03:46   #451 (permalink)
 
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More info from the CoI

Check out this article in today's Deccan Herald --Pilot was asleep before crash: Black box data
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Old 9th Sep 2010, 04:13   #452 (permalink)
 
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The first report says the he landed an 4K feet and thrust reversers were deployed at 6K feet.

Then the second report says that the wheels were found at the the take-off position and the engines at high thrust.

So I guess he tried to land but then tried to take off again with 2000 feet left and the thrust reversers still deployed?
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Old 9th Sep 2010, 04:16   #453 (permalink)
 
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@ aditya104
Quote:
Air Marshal Bhushan Neelkanth Gokhale should b stripped of his designation of Air Marshall they are making the investigation a joke
Aditya104, your remark's totally uncalled for. I served under the Air Marshal long enough to know that he is a sharp and meticulous professional. He has this sixth-sense sort of insight when it came to ops & flight safety. His 'handle' in the IAF was 'Bingo' Gokhale, incidentally.
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Old 9th Sep 2010, 04:19   #454 (permalink)
 
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The Deccan Herald report says that the crew attempted a 'go-around' with only 800 feet of runway remaining.
Quote:
Despite the high speed and landing in the middle of the runway, had the pilot tried to stop the aircraft instead of taking off after making touch down, it would have stopped at least at the end of the run way averting the disaster,” a Boeing official said. In support of the evidence that the pilot tried a “go around,” the DFDR shows that Glucika activated the takeoff gear and that the engine was in powered to high speed. “During normal touch down the engine speed is always low”, the official said.

“The main reason for the accident was that the pilot(s) tried to take off when just 800 feet of the runway was left. It was a wrong judgment while attempting a takeoff,” he said.
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Old 9th Sep 2010, 04:27   #455 (permalink)
 
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Rigid Rotor. Incorrect. The paper only says that 800 feet is what the Boeing official *thinks* the crew did. However, the paper doesn't offer any support for the 800 feet mark. You're reading more into the words than are there.

Further, the second report doesn't say *anything* about the thrust reversers which is an interesting omission.

Wise to wait for the official report.
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Old 9th Sep 2010, 13:15   #456 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Aditya104, your remark's totally uncalled for. I served under the Air Marshal long enough to know that he is a sharp and meticulous professional. He has this sixth-sense sort of insight when it came to ops & flight safety. His 'handle' in the IAF was 'Bingo' Gokhale, incidentally.
Ok I take back my criticism and apologize to you if you got offended. As an aviator who is still young in the industry I don't expect such mistakes from the enquiry committee. The standard that they are setting is very low. We need the future of aviation to be safer. That requires accident investigations which are able to issue reports that are transparent and timely. I hope you and Mr. 'Bingo' Gokhale are with me on this.
THANK YOU
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Old 9th Sep 2010, 14:26   #457 (permalink)
 
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@ Mountain Bear - I agree with you on that one - what we are getting are 'leaks', calibrated, deliberate or otherwise. From what I can gather – that as of now it appears to point to an HE landing accident, unless of course, the CoI comes up with something otherwise. It’s definitely very important to reconstruct what exactly happened in those last seconds, second-by-second, so as to pin-point the exact reason(s).

@Aditya104 – May I request you to hold your final judgement on Air Mshl Bingo’s performance on this one, till the CoI releases the report? It appears from previous posts in this thread (of a whole lot of other members) that its quite fashionable to bash in the Indian system (or lack of it or whatever), without waiting for the report.
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Old 9th Sep 2010, 15:34   #458 (permalink)
 
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Re to the Deccan Herald --Pilot was asleep before crash: Black box data

The cockpit voice recorder is only able to keep record for the last half-an-hour of the flight. It is therefore impossible to the investigation team to say the pilot was asleep for 110 minutes. That's bullshit and the Indian DGAC is showing the world, what we already knew: that they are not impartial or trustworthy. Hilarious is also the role of the journalists that publish whatever they are told to publish, without even taking the time to investigate. Bad journalism associated with unreliable investigation teams is the receipt for a lost opportunity to LEARN from this accident and to PREVENT other accidents. What a shame...what a waste!
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Old 9th Sep 2010, 15:43   #459 (permalink)
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In all probability in a 738 the CVR would be a 2hour recorder.
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Old 9th Sep 2010, 16:31   #460 (permalink)
 
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"Hilarious is also the role of the journalists that publish whatever they are told to publish, without even taking the time to investigate."

But...

"In all probability in a 738 the CVR would be a 2hour recorder."

Hilarious is also the role of some posters.

In defense of journalists, it needs to be pointed out that no newspaper on earth can afford to have on its staff an aviation expert, a police expert, a firefighting expert, an MD, a true automotive authority... They do as well as they can, writing one day about an aircraft accident, the next about a school-board issue and the day after that a ship sinking 8,000 miles distant.

The journalist certainly would have investigated if his information was that "somebody in India" claimed the pilot had been asleep. Since he/she apparently was quoting a DGAC report, I don't think that required them to re-invent the wheel when they're on deadline.

People are too quick to criticize others who perhaps work in professions about which they know little and couldn't themselves possibly participate in. (You Aguadalte, would be rejected for semi-literacy and an inability to punctuate correctly. See me after class.)
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