PPRuNe Forums


Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 13th Apr 2010, 13:49   #481 (permalink)


Probationary PPRuNer
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Poland
Posts: 7
Impact trajectory

Korn is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2010, 13:49   #482 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: east of north east
Posts: 3
andrasz: From the pictures we do gain one piece of important information not mentioned elsewhere: there are approach lights in place, though perhaps not exactly up to current ICAO standards...

If you refer to yellow plastic buckets with lamps inside, these are not approach lights but makeshift night lights placed by Russian emergency workers after the crash (to allow work to be carried overnight). I've seen those before, so no doubt on this one.
Zakrylok is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2010, 13:49   #483 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 483
Brutal irony of the fate.

This is the parliament interrogation of Przemysław Gosiewski,
one of the victims of the Smolensk crash regarding the 2008 Georgia incident:

Google T?umacz

Speaks for itself...

And the answer of the Minister of Defence.

Google T?umacz


This is official page of the Polish Parliament, official Parliament documents,
no journalists comments or interpretations.
Ptkay is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2010, 13:52   #484 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: East Molesey, Surrey, UK
Posts: 101
Ptkay, I'm former military (RAF) and have flown PARs and SRAs. They are simple if you are in practice at doing them.

Flying a PAR or an SRA, you don't respond to the instructions once you are established. There are too many instructions to respond to, either adjustments or confirmation that you are on centreline/glidpath. At short final the controller checks with tower, then clears you to land. At that point you just acknowledge the clearance, and as you approach your DH/MDH you look up, and if you can see the runway you land.
shortfinals is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2010, 13:56   #485 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: east of north east
Posts: 3
From what I understand from Russian press reports initial impact happened before the highway (therefore the white piece may actually be a wing tip). The plane then bounced over the highway and disintegrated upon impacting more trees. Press could be wrong of course.
Zakrylok is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2010, 13:58   #486 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: not a million miles from old BKK
Posts: 494
Shortfinals

I practiced and performed PARs and VDF letdowns in order to pass my IMC rating back in 1980. With the current level of instrument landing aids available, I don't know if anyone does these things any more.
Xeque is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2010, 14:23   #487 (permalink)


Probationary PPRuNer
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Italy, Switzerland, Poland
Age: 42
Posts: 2
SSQAR

Quote:
Reading various media reports about a third data recorder being recovered ?! That can be truth. Next to FDR and CVR we have another system of registration flight parameters on military aircrafts.
I wish to say hello to everybody as this is my first post here (end offtop).

This plane apart from the FDR and CVR probably was also equipped with SSQAR (Solid State Quick Access Recorder) as these units were mounted on all LOT aircrafts between 88-90

Google Translation

Best Regards
graziano is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2010, 14:25   #488 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: White eagle land
Posts: 298
Quote:
Is that a wing-tip?
It think, this is the right picture. Judge by yourself.

iMGSRC.RU 154 on para-moto1.iMGSRC.RU

iMGSRC.RU 154 on para-moto1.iMGSRC.RU

Arrakis
ARRAKIS is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2010, 14:36   #489 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Where it is comfortable...
Age: 53
Posts: 558
Zakrilok,

Thanks for the clarification, indeed those were the ones I had in mind.
andrasz is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2010, 14:47   #490 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 483
The CASA case was not the only PAR accident in PAF recently.

12 June 2001 the airbase in Powidz held night flights of Su-22 fighter-bombers jets. Visibility deteriorated so rapidly, that upon landing a young pilot refused to continue with the next flight. Not any one of the commanders, however, took notice of that. Another crew boarded Su-22 cockpit: trained pilot and instructor. The approaches were based on PAR procedures The official minima were clouds ceiling at least 100 m . In Powidz at that time it was significantly lower.

After the first unsuccessful approach by the pilot, the instructor took over the controls. "In this situation, the only right decision was to divert to reserve airfield with VFR conditions, which was prepared to accept the plane '- assessed in the report of accident investigation committee. Unfortunately, the instructor took a different decision. Su-22 crashed in a similar way as the presidential Tupolev Tu-154 - into a tree about 1 km from the threshold, to the right side of the approach axis. Probably the pilot took the, barely visible in a cloud, lights of the hangar roads for the runway lights. Both pilots did not have the slightest chance of survival.
Ptkay is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2010, 14:50   #491 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 4
Well many UK mil a/c only use PAR and SRA for airfield approaches since they are not fitted for ILS causes havoc if you have to fly IFR in Europe............
squadronblue is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2010, 15:00   #492 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 411
The Kathryn Report reports aircraft was on 2nd landing attempt . . .

Reconstruction of Polish president?s plane crash | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire Russian animation of accident . . .
robbreid is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2010, 15:12   #493 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 483
Specific and factual on the technical status of the Tupolev Tu-154M No. 101 (No. 90A837)

It was produced in Russia 14 April 1990 and that same year went to the
Warsaw regiment. Her TBO was 30 thousand hours in
air or 15 years of service. The day of the accident, the aircraft reached 5,141 hours.
Tupolev was supposed to be subject three main overhauls. Before the last
overhaul, which began in May 2009, Tu-154 has logged 5000
hours 19 minutes and made 3,821 landings.
(Rather low average time of single mission: 1h20min)

The last major refurbishment of the aircraft, coupled with the prolongation of service life and
modification was made in the aviation industry factory in Samara in Russia.

Order "for Samara," covered the primary repair with another
service life extension and modification of two aircraft, eight main overhaul of
D-30KU engines (including two spare) and the APU TA-6A.

The works were valued at almost $ 25 million

She returned to the country just before the Christmas holidays, December 23.
After returning from Russia she has been again serviced acc. to 36 SPLT procedures
designed to double-check the technical condition of the
aircraft before being allowed to fly with VIP.

After the overhaul Tu-154M 101 could spend 7,500 hours in the air.
She has flown less than 140h.
For the last flight the aircraft took off from the Warsaw Okecie
Saturday, January 10, at 7:15 with 96 people on board. "

January 12, 2010 the second Tu-154 reg. no 102 flew to Samara.
Her renovation is expected to continue until the second half of July.
Ptkay is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2010, 15:21   #494 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Choroni, sometimes
Posts: 1,975
Well for me the outcome will look like:

Blame the Russian Controller/Equipment? - NO
Mechanical Failure? -NO
Blame the Polish Top Brass or President? - OH NO


So what is left?
hetfield is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2010, 15:22   #495 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: East Molesey, Surrey, UK
Posts: 101
Robbreid - thanks for posting the RIA-Novosti "reconstruction", but as you undoubtedly appreciate, it's pretty dire and does not represent any kind of reality.
The media are in love with graphics, presumably because they find that the audience like them. But they never represent anything better than the written story that they accompany, and usually they are far worse.

Last edited by shortfinals; 13th Apr 2010 at 15:33.
shortfinals is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2010, 15:29   #496 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: EDDF
Posts: 15
"The Kathryn Report reports aircraft was on 2nd landing attempt . . .

Reconstruction of Polish president?s plane crash | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire Russian animation of accident . . ."

Not worth watching at all... Yet another media's rubbish.
GfaRm is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2010, 15:30   #497 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 483
Quote:
Well for me the outcome will look like:

Blame the Russian Controller/Equipment? - NO
Mechanical Failure? -NO
Blame the Polish Top Brass or President? - OH NO


So what is left?
As usual, the young, junior officer.

BTW: I just realized that he lived just 3 km from my place.
Ptkay is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2010, 15:44   #498 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Where it is comfortable...
Age: 53
Posts: 558
Crashed Tu-154's engines were operational before impact
andrasz is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2010, 16:23   #499 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 483
Human memory seems short.

It did happen before, in the, allegedly, best Air Force of the World, the USAF:

1996 Croatia USAF CT-43 crash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also an IFR NDB approach...

Also VIP on board.

Ronald Brown U.S. Secretary of Commerce was lost in the crash.

Last edited by Ptkay; 13th Apr 2010 at 17:11.
Ptkay is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2010, 16:28   #500 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: est
Posts: 59
A video of the crashed plane before firefighter's arrival appeared on Youtube.
Gives some clue to the visibility.

YouTube - ????? ???????.mp4
liider is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 01:47.


1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1