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Old 15th Mar 2017, 22:29   #81 (permalink)
 
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blackrock island

"There had been no satellite alerts, no signals, no Mayday. The last communication from Rescue 116, at 12.45am, was brief and to the point. It was “landing in Blacksod”

However at 12.46am one minute later the last AIS position is 13km away from Backsod lighthouse helipad and 60 metres from blackrock lighthouse .As others have stated blackrock LH is on a large rock in the sea with 300ft elevation while blacksod is at sealevel.Given the last radiocall "landing at blacksod" was made 1 minute before the final position beside blackrock island it would seem highly probable that a landing was attempted at blackrock. Depending on the approach maybe only one lighthouse was visible?Would there be evidence of a contact on blackrock island ?it is such a sad story given these great people risk there lives to save others rip bravest ones.
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Old 15th Mar 2017, 23:29   #82 (permalink)
 
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Why do so many people feel empowered to tell other people what they should post on this forum? It is a recurring theme every time there is an accident. People are allowed to post what they think is right and relevant, so (self righteous) people: give others the courtesy to be allowed to post what they want to post. Nobody likes a control freak.

Anyway, all accidents are sad and unfortunate, surely it goes without saying? I didn't know any of the people involved but why would it make a difference if I did?
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Old 15th Mar 2017, 23:44   #83 (permalink)
 
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Anyway, all accidents are sad and unfortunate, surely it goes without saying? I didn't know any of the people involved but why would it make a difference if I did?
because you might care a bit more...............
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 00:05   #84 (permalink)
 
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Because even if theories are proved correct it is deeply unpleasant for anyone connected to have to hear such opinion until the factual un-opinionated report is released. An AW139 crew who visited the scene seem to think differently, providing an armchair opinion that has now reached as far as Aberdeen!!! People in glass houses in this case.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 00:08   #85 (permalink)
 
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In conditions of darkness and drizzle with low broken cloud (assuming EINN METAR relates), is a let down over a large area of sea before turning to approach Blacksod from the west not a more likely scenario than landing at Black Rock?
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 00:24   #86 (permalink)
 
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My deepest condolences to the families, absolutely shocked by this
At the Spanish maritime SAR we all feel like we lost a member of our family
God bless for all the lifes you saved, RIP brothers
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 03:50   #87 (permalink)
 
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Was there a mixup between BlackRock and Blacksod lighthouses?

One lighthouse is at sea level, the other at around 300 feet are they not? They shot one or two missed approaches in order to get in to refuel. What was their fuel status? ( pressure building with multiple missed approaches?) The weather had a cloud base of 500 feet. Figuring it would have been dark. Were they wearing NVD's? Clearly something has gone wrong and it would seem from this thread many are speculating but without focusing on causal factors and sound theories. There are many things to probably learn from this accident. Hopefully the Flight recorder will quickly be recovered and shed light on what actually happened. An S&R S92 should have auto hover & NVD's I presume. RIP to the crew. Always hard on their families & loved ones. Hopefully CHC will support the families financially for the years ahead.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 05:13   #88 (permalink)
 
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My very sincere condolences.

A question if I may from downunder .... does this operation use NVIS? If not, is this well proven technology on the table for the future there? Like all technologies, they have limitations, but I almost never fly at night without them now.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 05:23   #89 (permalink)
 
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HC people feel compelled to control posts because they fail to separate the emotion from the technical performance of machine and crews. Like you said, the tragedy is obvious and a given. However the event has happened.

What immediatly matters now, to everyone flying in the front or the back of an S92 is; is it an aircraft problem OR a crew problem.

Given the information already available I suspect the answer on this one might be a little sooner than later. However that is just an opinion. The evidence so far could just be circumstantial.

I knew both pilots. It does not change the desire to know what caused it.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 05:54   #90 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HeliComparator View Post
Why do so many people feel empowered to tell other people what they should post on this forum? It is a recurring theme every time there is an accident. People are allowed to post what they think is right and relevant, so (self righteous) people: give others the courtesy to be allowed to post what they want to post. Nobody likes a control freak.

Anyway, all accidents are sad and unfortunate, surely it goes without saying? I didn't know any of the people involved but why would it make a difference if I did?
I completely agree, all too often posters on here play the self righteous card and type what people think they want to hear, it's the corporate higher manangement tact when something goes wrong to discuss 'only facts'. The problem with that is facts may take a long time to compile especially with incidents like this one.

So this should be a condolence thread? A discussion where people post their condolences hidden by forum usernames and not their own? Is that helpful, to who?

What is the first thing we all do when we hear of a sudden death? What's our immediate reaction? Shock at the death of course but the inevitable question, "what's happened?".

Now, I happen to know the parents of 1 of the victims from the G-REDL crash and I know for a fact they looked in on PPRuNe for answers regularly, from a couple of days post the accident all the way through legal proceedings and they still do now post the Norwegian 225 accident. Why? They needed to know, they needed to know of all possible theories, they needed answers. Sometimes facts are presented in a way that make it difficult for the non aviation community to understand and more often than not, these facts are presented months, if not years after the accident.

PPRuNe is the place to come to to gather the thoughts of (some) experts. Experts being the guys at the front line that fly and maintain these machines on a daily basis. Not the generic corporate management answers but the theories and thoughts from the guys (and girls) that know the machines inside out back to front.

I'm sure there are many of us who have lost a loved one or a close friend in questionable circumstances? You can't sleep, you can't eat, you're highly stressed, every possible thought is going through your head and you want answers to try and cope. It's human nature.

I'm actually sure the G-REDL thread was edited to state "Not condolences"

Yes, this is tragic, yes some people here know the crew involved but that does not mean we should not do what comes naturally and discuss possible failure modes?

Condolence threads are not helpful, we all have empathy, we are all saddened. I think it's wrong to use the corporate tact and only talk of "facts only" - This may turn out to be a year or so down the line.

If I had lost a loved one in an aviation accident and I knew nothing about aviation, I'd be trawling the internet 24hrs a day to look for answers, answers or theories from experts, that's just me though.

So the "facts" we have at the moment is the event happening suddenly and the aircraft impacting the water at speed or with force (debris field). We know that the aircraft was needing fuel, we know that the pilot was very experienced.

The sudden nature of the accident would point to either a CFIT or a Mechanical break up. What about fuel? It left heavy and was needing a refuel shortly before the crash, someone could work out the burn rate between the time periods and rule that one out surely? CFIT? What could go wrong for the aircraft to fly itself into the water? Mechanical break up? MGB? TGB?

Just my 2 cents worth

Last edited by Mitchaa; 16th Mar 2017 at 07:45.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 06:29   #91 (permalink)
 
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The sudden nature of the accident would point to either a CFIT or a Mechanical break up. What about fuel? It left heavy and was needing a refuel shortly before the crash, someone could work out the burn rate between the time periods and rule that one out surely? CFIT? What could go wrong for the aircraft to fly itself into the water? Mechanical break up? MGB? TGB?

Just my 2 cents worth
You made your point well but then went into random speculation which helps no-one
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 06:55   #92 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by jimf671 View Post
In conditions of darkness and drizzle with low broken cloud (assuming EINN METAR relates), is a let down over a large area of sea before turning to approach Blacksod from the west not a more likely scenario than landing at Black Rock?
y
That was my interpretation - the ais track looks like an ARA. However, it raises more questions than answers!
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 07:55   #93 (permalink)
 
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Irish Examiner
"Update 7.40am: It has emerged the Air Corps was initially asked to provide top cover for the mission missing helicopter Rescue 116 was sent on.

The Defence Forces confirmed to Newstalk Breakfast they could not provide an aircraft outside of normal hours, due to a loss of experienced personnel.

At 10.06pm on Monday night the Irish Air Corps received a request from the coast guard to provide top cover for a long range medical evacuation off the west coast.

They replied that it was not possible to provide fixed wing aircraft cover outside of normal hours.

They have confirmed to Newstalk Breakfast that this is because of a loss of experienced personnel among both air crew and air traffic control.

The Rescue 116 helicopter was subsequently sent to provide top cover for the mission.

The Defence Forces say at 1.45am they then received an emergency request to conduct a search for the helicopter, which had gone missing.

They initiated a recall plan and were able to provide a Casa aircraft to assist in the search and rescue operation."


http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/latest-air-corps-was-initially-asked-to-provide-top-cover-for-rescue-116-mission-781772.html

Last edited by juice; 16th Mar 2017 at 08:30.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 08:40   #94 (permalink)
 
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Theories.

Could members please keep theories and speculation to a minimum. Family members are awaiting the return of their loved ones, inaccurate reporting of on going circumstances, and inaccurate theories is not making the current situation any easier. As we know press are reading what is being posted, so we kindly ask that it be kept to a minimum at this time.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 09:15   #95 (permalink)
 
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At 10.06pm on Monday night the Irish Air Corps received a request from the coast guard to provide top cover for a long range medical evacuation off the west coast. They replied that it was not possible to provide fixed wing aircraft cover outside of normal hours.
To be fair to the Air Corps, though, SAR and top-cover are not funded or 'primary missions' and thus are flown as-available. It doesn't appear that ICG compensates them for any missions flown, and certainly it isn't deducted from CHC's budget, so crews and aircraft aren't dedicated on stand-by.

Before this incident I had assumed that SAR was a tasking but the CASAs are primarily for maritime surveillance, medevac and personnel transport.

The Air Corps even sent the LJ45 once for top-cover, since the aircraft and crew happened to be available at Baldonnel that day.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 09:33   #96 (permalink)
 
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Very sad indeed.

The other pilot, Mark Duffy, was he also a captain?
The press is all over Capt. Dara but there were three other crew in the helicopter to remember, one of them the other pilot who may have been running the show.
With regards to the few previous threads families may be looking at all reports, websites etc for answers. Not very nice for families of the rest of the crew hearing all about one of the pilots.
I am sure there are people on here who knew the other crew members.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 09:42   #97 (permalink)


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Originally Posted by jeepys View Post
Very sad indeed.

The other pilot, Mark Duffy, was he also a captain?
The press is all over Capt. Dara but there were three other crew in the helicopter to remember, one of them the other pilot who may have been running the show.
With regards to the few previous threads families may be looking at all reports, websites etc for answers. Not very nice for families of the rest of the crew hearing all about one of the pilots.
I am sure there are people on here who knew the other crew members.
Mark was also a captain.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 10:06   #98 (permalink)
 
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The other pilot, Mark Duffy, was he also a captain?
the press are reporting that he was the Chief Pilot.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 10:14   #99 (permalink)
 
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Norunway. I agree with Mitchaa. I also understand your point though. However, on this forum you will get professional opinions from Pilots, Rear Crew and Engineers who do this stuff every day. Sometimes we are not as professional in our postings as we maybe should be. Then you get others.

I have to say that over the years the "RIPs" and "Very Sads" are small consolation to those individuals who operate and maintain similar/identical types. We know the risks and the platitudes served on these forums are meaningless to us.

However, for family members and loved ones the clinical, technical descriptions, opinions and "Swags" may, or may not provide some comfort/explanation. That is the power of the internet.

What we, as a professional body of people, should not do, is apportion blame. Even when it may seem that "Pilot" or "Engineer" errors appears or is confirmed as the root cause. We should, and mostly do, look deeper. Why/How can that error be made? and most importantly, "Am I capable of the same error".

We are all stakeholders in these situations. Some are looking for explanations or reasons why an event occurs. Some are simply interested in whether it was "Aircraft" or "Human". Some are looking for news column inches.

Having said all of that, I have found over the last few years that many posters, of the professional type, add great value to understanding the details of such events. There is a lot more good than bad on PPRuNe.

You cannot suppress it. You cannot control it (unless you are a MOD). However, you should take what value you can and disregard the rest.

DB
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 10:23   #100 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Very sad indeed.

The other pilot, Mark Duffy, was he also a captain?
The press is all over Capt. Dara but there were three other crew in the helicopter to remember, one of them the other pilot who may have been running the show.
With regards to the few previous threads families may be looking at all reports, websites etc for answers. Not very nice for families of the rest of the crew hearing all about one of the pilots.
I am sure there are people on here who knew the other crew members.
Unfortunately the circumstances regarding her rescue, subsequent death and no doubt, her gender played a big part in the amount of press cover she received. Also, there were plenty of archive photos etc which the press love to use to fill column/inches.

Every member of the crew play an important part in such operations and jeepys is correct to remind us not to, unintentionally, play down the loss of them.

Both pilots may have been captains by rank but the question of who was commander by role for this task has yet to be answered. The press seldom understand the distinction.
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