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Old 15th Mar 2017, 20:05   #81 (permalink)
 
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Condolences to the deceased. Tragic that a relatively straightforward cross-country run to a station refuel would end like this.

Always looking at the benefit and alignment of modern technology for rescue purposes. As far as I know, most helicopters these days are satellite tracked, typically pinging every 2 minutes with an accuracy of 60'. With the benefit of AIS near shorelines of developed countries the frequency is more like 2-10 seconds and an accuracy of 6'. Some media have commented on lack of a rescue signal, PLB's require activation and the circumstances may not have lent themselves to that. CPI should be automatic but predictably it once again failed. For their burden of cost, installation and weight, I'd be more heartened to hear of a single ditching where they actually worked as advertised.

CVR/FDR have a sonic pinger that will transmit for about 30 days underwater. Hope the proximity to Blackrock is only a coincidence.
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Old 15th Mar 2017, 20:25   #82 (permalink)
 
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Is that a serious question? What might be floating and moving with tides and wind and would be desirable to find? Here's a clue - there are three of them!
Yes it was, I'm well aware of floating debris but on AIS they seem to be concentrating in an area away from the main wreckage. And I'm aware there are three missing!
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Old 15th Mar 2017, 20:33   #83 (permalink)
 
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Well, two days since the accident and with a prevailing westerly wind, I doubt very much they will be close to the accident site!
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Old 15th Mar 2017, 20:54   #84 (permalink)
 
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There might be a tragic story building here.

The pinger as reported in the press is just off Blackrock Light (BBC News).

The traces of AIS flight path as shown on line show a circle of Blackrock.

The Last AIS position recorded at 00:46 was N54.06736º, W10.3229º, which is just next to Blackrock, in the surf.

The wreckage as reported by fisbangwollop, has been found is just off the island (60 meters). This is unconfirmed by any news source.

Blackrock is located atop a 300 foot cliff, Blacksod is just about at sea level.
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Old 15th Mar 2017, 21:54   #85 (permalink)
 
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There might be a tragic story building here.
Don't think there's any "might" about the outcome.

Let's keep the surmises from the circumstantial evidence to ourselves for now, even if ultimately our own hypotheses are proved correct. There is nothing to immediately gain in a wider safety context if its not attributable to an S92 design/manufacturing flaw which the recorders will help verify for the investigators.
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Old 15th Mar 2017, 22:29   #86 (permalink)
 
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blackrock island

"There had been no satellite alerts, no signals, no Mayday. The last communication from Rescue 116, at 12.45am, was brief and to the point. It was “landing in Blacksod”

However at 12.46am one minute later the last AIS position is 13km away from Backsod lighthouse helipad and 60 metres from blackrock lighthouse .As others have stated blackrock LH is on a large rock in the sea with 300ft elevation while blacksod is at sealevel.Given the last radiocall "landing at blacksod" was made 1 minute before the final position beside blackrock island it would seem highly probable that a landing was attempted at blackrock. Depending on the approach maybe only one lighthouse was visible?Would there be evidence of a contact on blackrock island ?it is such a sad story given these great people risk there lives to save others rip bravest ones.
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Old 15th Mar 2017, 23:29   #87 (permalink)
 
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Why do so many people feel empowered to tell other people what they should post on this forum? It is a recurring theme every time there is an accident. People are allowed to post what they think is right and relevant, so (self righteous) people: give others the courtesy to be allowed to post what they want to post. Nobody likes a control freak.

Anyway, all accidents are sad and unfortunate, surely it goes without saying? I didn't know any of the people involved but why would it make a difference if I did?
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Old 15th Mar 2017, 23:44   #88 (permalink)
 
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Anyway, all accidents are sad and unfortunate, surely it goes without saying? I didn't know any of the people involved but why would it make a difference if I did?
because you might care a bit more...............
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 00:05   #89 (permalink)
 
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Because even if theories are proved correct it is deeply unpleasant for anyone connected to have to hear such opinion until the factual un-opinionated report is released. An AW139 crew who visited the scene seem to think differently, providing an armchair opinion that has now reached as far as Aberdeen!!! People in glass houses in this case.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 00:08   #90 (permalink)
 
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In conditions of darkness and drizzle with low broken cloud (assuming EINN METAR relates), is a let down over a large area of sea before turning to approach Blacksod from the west not a more likely scenario than landing at Black Rock?
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 00:24   #91 (permalink)
 
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My deepest condolences to the families, absolutely shocked by this
At the Spanish maritime SAR we all feel like we lost a member of our family
God bless for all the lifes you saved, RIP brothers
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 03:50   #92 (permalink)
 
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Was there a mixup between BlackRock and Blacksod lighthouses?

One lighthouse is at sea level, the other at around 300 feet are they not? They shot one or two missed approaches in order to get in to refuel. What was their fuel status? ( pressure building with multiple missed approaches?) The weather had a cloud base of 500 feet. Figuring it would have been dark. Were they wearing NVD's? Clearly something has gone wrong and it would seem from this thread many are speculating but without focusing on causal factors and sound theories. There are many things to probably learn from this accident. Hopefully the Flight recorder will quickly be recovered and shed light on what actually happened. An S&R S92 should have auto hover & NVD's I presume. RIP to the crew. Always hard on their families & loved ones. Hopefully CHC will support the families financially for the years ahead.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 05:13   #93 (permalink)
 
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My very sincere condolences.

A question if I may from downunder .... does this operation use NVIS? If not, is this well proven technology on the table for the future there? Like all technologies, they have limitations, but I almost never fly at night without them now.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 05:23   #94 (permalink)
 
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HC people feel compelled to control posts because they fail to separate the emotion from the technical performance of machine and crews. Like you said, the tragedy is obvious and a given. However the event has happened.

What immediatly matters now, to everyone flying in the front or the back of an S92 is; is it an aircraft problem OR a crew problem.

Given the information already available I suspect the answer on this one might be a little sooner than later. However that is just an opinion. The evidence so far could just be circumstantial.

I knew both pilots. It does not change the desire to know what caused it.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 05:54   #95 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HeliComparator View Post
Why do so many people feel empowered to tell other people what they should post on this forum? It is a recurring theme every time there is an accident. People are allowed to post what they think is right and relevant, so (self righteous) people: give others the courtesy to be allowed to post what they want to post. Nobody likes a control freak.

Anyway, all accidents are sad and unfortunate, surely it goes without saying? I didn't know any of the people involved but why would it make a difference if I did?
I completely agree, all too often posters on here play the self righteous card and type what people think they want to hear, it's the corporate higher manangement tact when something goes wrong to discuss 'only facts'. The problem with that is facts may take a long time to compile especially with incidents like this one.

So this should be a condolence thread? A discussion where people post their condolences hidden by forum usernames and not their own? Is that helpful, to who?

What is the first thing we all do when we hear of a sudden death? What's our immediate reaction? Shock at the death of course but the inevitable question, "what's happened?".

Now, I happen to know the parents of 1 of the victims from the G-REDL crash and I know for a fact they looked in on PPRuNe for answers regularly, from a couple of days post the accident all the way through legal proceedings and they still do now post the Norwegian 225 accident. Why? They needed to know, they needed to know of all possible theories, they needed answers. Sometimes facts are presented in a way that make it difficult for the non aviation community to understand and more often than not, these facts are presented months, if not years after the accident.

PPRuNe is the place to come to to gather the thoughts of (some) experts. Experts being the guys at the front line that fly and maintain these machines on a daily basis. Not the generic corporate management answers but the theories and thoughts from the guys (and girls) that know the machines inside out back to front.

I'm sure there are many of us who have lost a loved one or a close friend in questionable circumstances? You can't sleep, you can't eat, you're highly stressed, every possible thought is going through your head and you want answers to try and cope. It's human nature.

I'm actually sure the G-REDL thread was edited to state "Not condolences"

Yes, this is tragic, yes some people here know the crew involved but that does not mean we should not do what comes naturally and discuss possible failure modes?

Condolence threads are not helpful, we all have empathy, we are all saddened. I think it's wrong to use the corporate tact and only talk of "facts only" - This may turn out to be a year or so down the line.

If I had lost a loved one in an aviation accident and I knew nothing about aviation, I'd be trawling the internet 24hrs a day to look for answers, answers or theories from experts, that's just me though.

So the "facts" we have at the moment is the event happening suddenly and the aircraft impacting the water at speed or with force (debris field). We know that the aircraft was needing fuel, we know that the pilot was very experienced.

The sudden nature of the accident would point to either a CFIT or a Mechanical break up. What about fuel? It left heavy and was needing a refuel shortly before the crash, someone could work out the burn rate between the time periods and rule that one out surely? CFIT? What could go wrong for the aircraft to fly itself into the water? Mechanical break up? MGB? TGB?

Just my 2 cents worth

Last edited by Mitchaa; 16th Mar 2017 at 07:45.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 06:29   #96 (permalink)
 
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The sudden nature of the accident would point to either a CFIT or a Mechanical break up. What about fuel? It left heavy and was needing a refuel shortly before the crash, someone could work out the burn rate between the time periods and rule that one out surely? CFIT? What could go wrong for the aircraft to fly itself into the water? Mechanical break up? MGB? TGB?

Just my 2 cents worth
You made your point well but then went into random speculation which helps no-one
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 06:55   #97 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by jimf671 View Post
In conditions of darkness and drizzle with low broken cloud (assuming EINN METAR relates), is a let down over a large area of sea before turning to approach Blacksod from the west not a more likely scenario than landing at Black Rock?
y
That was my interpretation - the ais track looks like an ARA. However, it raises more questions than answers!
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 07:27   #98 (permalink)
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I wouldn't say so Crab,

Sudden and immediate means CFIT or mechanical failure to me as I'm sure it does to most of us? Although yes, it is speculation at this stage, it would be very surprising if it wasn't.

There are far more intelligent and clued up individuals on here than I am, the last time a CHC helicopter flew itself into the water was the Sumburgh accident. If memory serves me correct, VR brought on by low airspeed brought on by an autopilot channel being decoupled? Understanding why the Sumburgh accident happened was discussed in great depth on this forum and many predicted and theorised correctly from the start. Could the same happen in an S92? That's not to say this is a CFIT accident but talking about 1 of the 2 logical theories on how CFIT can/may happen.

This article in the Irish times discusses the possible 3 failure modes for example...

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irela...lure-1.3010682

Whoever has written the article has stated that pilot error is extremely remote due to the enormous amount of training and practice required by the SAR crews and that catastrophic mechanical failure is the most likely cause. Finger in the air analysis I know but possibly very worrying times ahead for the S92.

Last edited by Mitchaa; 16th Mar 2017 at 08:39.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 07:55   #99 (permalink)
 
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Irish Examiner
"Update 7.40am: It has emerged the Air Corps was initially asked to provide top cover for the mission missing helicopter Rescue 116 was sent on.

The Defence Forces confirmed to Newstalk Breakfast they could not provide an aircraft outside of normal hours, due to a loss of experienced personnel.

At 10.06pm on Monday night the Irish Air Corps received a request from the coast guard to provide top cover for a long range medical evacuation off the west coast.

They replied that it was not possible to provide fixed wing aircraft cover outside of normal hours.

They have confirmed to Newstalk Breakfast that this is because of a loss of experienced personnel among both air crew and air traffic control.

The Rescue 116 helicopter was subsequently sent to provide top cover for the mission.

The Defence Forces say at 1.45am they then received an emergency request to conduct a search for the helicopter, which had gone missing.

They initiated a recall plan and were able to provide a Casa aircraft to assist in the search and rescue operation."


http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/latest-air-corps-was-initially-asked-to-provide-top-cover-for-rescue-116-mission-781772.html

Last edited by juice; 16th Mar 2017 at 08:30.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 08:40   #100 (permalink)
 
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Theories.

Could members please keep theories and speculation to a minimum. Family members are awaiting the return of their loved ones, inaccurate reporting of on going circumstances, and inaccurate theories is not making the current situation any easier. As we know press are reading what is being posted, so we kindly ask that it be kept to a minimum at this time.
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