CPL(H), IR(H) to ATPL(A) Theoretical Knowledge
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CPL(H), IR(H) to ATPL(A) Theoretical Knowledge
Just after any advice / thoughts.
CAP 804 gives dispensation from 9 of the 14 exams if converting from an ATPL(H) to a fATPL(A) - CAP 804, Section 4, Part L, Appendix 1 to
Part-FCL, Crediting of Theoretical Knowledge, Paragraph 3 (page 392).
I've got a CPL(H) and IR(H) with full ATPL(H) theory credits and sufficient hours to open an ATPL(H) but the cost of doing an ATPL(H) skills test is prohibitive in order to avoid doing 9 exams. I've asked the CAA if they can apply the same exemption from 9 of the 14 exams but has anyone done anything similar / got dispensation from the CAA and what form does it take - is a simple e-mail from the CAA all that is required!?!
The last thing I need is any problems when actually coming to licence application .
CAP 804 gives dispensation from 9 of the 14 exams if converting from an ATPL(H) to a fATPL(A) - CAP 804, Section 4, Part L, Appendix 1 to
Part-FCL, Crediting of Theoretical Knowledge, Paragraph 3 (page 392).
I've got a CPL(H) and IR(H) with full ATPL(H) theory credits and sufficient hours to open an ATPL(H) but the cost of doing an ATPL(H) skills test is prohibitive in order to avoid doing 9 exams. I've asked the CAA if they can apply the same exemption from 9 of the 14 exams but has anyone done anything similar / got dispensation from the CAA and what form does it take - is a simple e-mail from the CAA all that is required!?!
The last thing I need is any problems when actually coming to licence application .
Jet88...You have answered your own question..
You have NOT got an ATPL H ...you have a CPL H. Im afraid your going to be up for the 9 exams....
There is no such thing as a frozen ATPL...CPL with atpl exams is not an ATPL
You have NOT got an ATPL H ...you have a CPL H. Im afraid your going to be up for the 9 exams....
There is no such thing as a frozen ATPL...CPL with atpl exams is not an ATPL
Not strictly correct. Email the CAA and and helpful chap will get back to you.
The conversion is based on the validity of your theory.
If you did your CPl(H) under JAR amendment 3 then you actually have an VFR ATPL(H) so you only have to do 5 exams to convert.
If you have done ATPLH theory, got your CPL and done an IR within three years which hasn't expired by more than 7 years then your ATPL theory remains valid aka frozen until you meet the full requirements for an ATPL(H) to be issued. In which case to convert you will need to sit just the five exams.
The conversion is based on the validity of your theory.
If you did your CPl(H) under JAR amendment 3 then you actually have an VFR ATPL(H) so you only have to do 5 exams to convert.
If you have done ATPLH theory, got your CPL and done an IR within three years which hasn't expired by more than 7 years then your ATPL theory remains valid aka frozen until you meet the full requirements for an ATPL(H) to be issued. In which case to convert you will need to sit just the five exams.
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If you did your CPl(H) under JAR amendment 3 then you actually have an VFR ATPL(H)
You only HAVE a license when you hold it in your hands, its stamped and dated (and valid), and you have SIGNED it.
There is no such think as a "frozen" ATPL in helicopter business.....
People might fulfill the REQUIREMENTS of an ATPL-but until such time they hold a valid ATPL-license in hand, they do not HAVE it.
I agree that the CAA might apply the same rule due to the fact that he has the theoretical knowledge and proved it-but they might not give that compensation for the pure fact that the rule is based on EXPERIENCE as well, which he does not have (as he does not have an ATPL, he can not have "experience" as an ATPL-holder)...
But as my father used to say:
"Just ask-you already have a "No", you can only get a "Yes""..
But apply for it in writing...
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You're fine
I asked this exact same question recently at Gatwick. The credit is all about TK not the physical licence. The bridge is 5 exams. Interestingly though you don't need any exams to go do your IR(A). You could compress your conversion timeline by concurrently doing exams and IR before CPL (which is more efficient in minimum hours too (10 hrs IR followed by 15 hr CPL)). Only snag I've just had is whether IR(H) needs to be current for this route. Regardless your TK credit still valid (as previous respondent pointed out validity)
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Your ATP exams are effectively valid as long as you have either an IR or a type rating, and for some time after their expiry, so you only need to take the 5 bridging exams - POF, Perf, Ops, AGK and Instruments.
Phil
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Thanks very much for the replies and info.
Ersa – I totally agree – I do not hold an ATPL(H) but the only thing from stopping me holding an ATPL(H) (and avoiding 9 of the 14 exams) is the skills test which would cost me £6000 ish – I have the rest of the flying hours / MCC from mil flying - but not £6000 lying under my bed!
Misterbonkers – Thanks – I’ve seen this reference to JAR Amendment 3 in other threads – I can’t find any reference to it on my old JAA CPL(H) licence but the exams were done in October 2010 with the CPL(H) licence opened in November 2010 – does this make it Amend 3 or is the only way to check with the CAA?
The IR(H) was done in 2014 – theory credits kept valid from 2010 by mil flying which, as I understand, now locks in the ATPL theory credits for 7 years.
FloaterNW – Only have AS355 on licence from type and instrument rating from 2014. ATPL(H) flying hours / crew requirements fulfilled by mil flying but the helicopter type is not recognized by CAA to be entered on an EASA licence – hence requirement only to do ATPL(H) skills test to open and hold an ATPL(H) licence.
GipsyMagpie – Thanks for the info – What was the final answer with regards to IR(H) validity for your training route of IR then CPL?
Misterbonkers – Thanks – I’ve seen this reference to JAR Amendment 3 in other threads – I can’t find any reference to it on my old JAA CPL(H) licence but the exams were done in October 2010 with the CPL(H) licence opened in November 2010 – does this make it Amend 3 or is the only way to check with the CAA?
The IR(H) was done in 2014 – theory credits kept valid from 2010 by mil flying which, as I understand, now locks in the ATPL theory credits for 7 years.
FloaterNW – Only have AS355 on licence from type and instrument rating from 2014. ATPL(H) flying hours / crew requirements fulfilled by mil flying but the helicopter type is not recognized by CAA to be entered on an EASA licence – hence requirement only to do ATPL(H) skills test to open and hold an ATPL(H) licence.
GipsyMagpie – Thanks for the info – What was the final answer with regards to IR(H) validity for your training route of IR then CPL?
Jet88,
Before you start spending money on exams and flights then check with the CAA on the type you are proposing to use to apply for an ATPL.
I know a Company that uses a loophole in order to use the EC135 training syllabus to qualify for ATPL.
Before you start spending money on exams and flights then check with the CAA on the type you are proposing to use to apply for an ATPL.
I know a Company that uses a loophole in order to use the EC135 training syllabus to qualify for ATPL.
Last edited by FloaterNorthWest; 22nd Dec 2015 at 09:34.
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IR(H) validity vs credit for IR(A)
Jet88,
I have asked the very same question to the CAA recently, regarding the use of my IR(H) to reduce training hours for an IR(A).
The 'experts' say that the IR(H) must be valid ie current on a type. If not current, you do not get the reduction in training hours for an IR(A). Having simply held an IR(H) in the past year is not enough
I don't have the numbers immediately to hand, but the reduction in training hours for an IR(A) is significantly reduced with a valid/current IR(H). I've yet to sit down and work out the cost of: IR(H) renew + reduced IR(A) compared with full IR(A) course.
Edit: with regard to the theory, as an ex-mil pilot you should be able to just crack on with the extra 5 required to bridge - POF, Perf, Ops, AGK and Instruments.
I have asked the very same question to the CAA recently, regarding the use of my IR(H) to reduce training hours for an IR(A).
The 'experts' say that the IR(H) must be valid ie current on a type. If not current, you do not get the reduction in training hours for an IR(A). Having simply held an IR(H) in the past year is not enough
I don't have the numbers immediately to hand, but the reduction in training hours for an IR(A) is significantly reduced with a valid/current IR(H). I've yet to sit down and work out the cost of: IR(H) renew + reduced IR(A) compared with full IR(A) course.
Edit: with regard to the theory, as an ex-mil pilot you should be able to just crack on with the extra 5 required to bridge - POF, Perf, Ops, AGK and Instruments.
Last edited by rotormonkey; 22nd Dec 2015 at 15:28.
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FloaterNW - My aim at the moment is to work towards a fATPL(A) - I am merely trying to get the same dispensation from some of the exams that an ATPL(H) holder would get in order to make life a bit easier. As an aside I believe another company based further south east at an airport in the cotswolds is in the process of getting certification to do atpl skills tests on the AS355.
Rotormonkey - Having just looked at CAP804 it seems like re validating the IR(H) could well be cheaper - with a valid IR(H) the single engine IR(A) drops from 50 to 10 hours whilst a multi engine IR(A) drops from 55 to 10 hours - Section 4, Part L Appendix 6 (Page 424, 425) paras 10.2, 7 & 8!!
Rotormonkey - Having just looked at CAP804 it seems like re validating the IR(H) could well be cheaper - with a valid IR(H) the single engine IR(A) drops from 50 to 10 hours whilst a multi engine IR(A) drops from 55 to 10 hours - Section 4, Part L Appendix 6 (Page 424, 425) paras 10.2, 7 & 8!!
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FloaterNW - My aim at the moment is to work towards a fATPL(A) - I am merely trying to get the same dispensation from some of the exams that an ATPL(H) holder would get in order to make life a bit easier. As an aside I believe another company based further south east at an airport in the cotswolds is in the process of getting certification to do atpl skills tests on the AS355.
Rotormonkey - Having just looked at CAP804 it seems like re validating the IR(H) could well be cheaper - with a valid IR(H) the single engine IR(A) drops from 50 to 10 hours whilst a multi engine IR(A) drops from 55 to 10 hours - Section 4, Part L Appendix 6 (Page 424, 425) paras 10.2, 7 & 8!!
Rotormonkey - Having just looked at CAP804 it seems like re validating the IR(H) could well be cheaper - with a valid IR(H) the single engine IR(A) drops from 50 to 10 hours whilst a multi engine IR(A) drops from 55 to 10 hours - Section 4, Part L Appendix 6 (Page 424, 425) paras 10.2, 7 & 8!!
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With the UK CAA (only, as far as I am aware), if you have one set of exams (regardless of licence), you can bridge to the other with the usual 5 exams. For helicopters (only), your ATPL exams are valid as long as you have an IR or a type rating.
(2) The completion of the airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) theoretical
knowledge examinations will remain valid for the issue of an ATPL for a
period of 7 years from the last validity date of:
(i) an IR entered in the licence; or
(ii) in the case of helicopters, a helicopter’s type rating entered in that
licence.
The school concerned must have a specific bridging course on its ATO certificate - you can't just rock up at any one and take 5 exams.
Phil
(2) The completion of the airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) theoretical
knowledge examinations will remain valid for the issue of an ATPL for a
period of 7 years from the last validity date of:
(i) an IR entered in the licence; or
(ii) in the case of helicopters, a helicopter’s type rating entered in that
licence.
The school concerned must have a specific bridging course on its ATO certificate - you can't just rock up at any one and take 5 exams.
Phil
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With the UK CAA (only, as far as I am aware), if you have one set of exams (regardless of licence), you can bridge to the other with the usual 5 exams. For helicopters (only), your ATPL exams are valid as long as you have an IR or a type rating.
(2) The completion of the airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) theoretical
knowledge examinations will remain valid for the issue of an ATPL for a
period of 7 years from the last validity date of:
(i) an IR entered in the licence; or
(ii) in the case of helicopters, a helicopter’s type rating entered in that
licence.
The school concerned must have a specific bridging course on its ATO certificate - you can't just rock up at any one and take 5 exams.
Phil
(2) The completion of the airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) theoretical
knowledge examinations will remain valid for the issue of an ATPL for a
period of 7 years from the last validity date of:
(i) an IR entered in the licence; or
(ii) in the case of helicopters, a helicopter’s type rating entered in that
licence.
The school concerned must have a specific bridging course on its ATO certificate - you can't just rock up at any one and take 5 exams.
Phil
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Hello Gipsy,
I completed the 5 exams last year - following this query on prune I did receive an e-mail confirmation from the CAA that it was only the 5 exams required - thank goodness.
Getting back to fixed wing flying (renewing the PPL, IMC / IR(R), CPL and IR) was good fun - just the tricky bit left of actually trying to find a job!
All the best, jet.
I completed the 5 exams last year - following this query on prune I did receive an e-mail confirmation from the CAA that it was only the 5 exams required - thank goodness.
Getting back to fixed wing flying (renewing the PPL, IMC / IR(R), CPL and IR) was good fun - just the tricky bit left of actually trying to find a job!
All the best, jet.
