Save the UK Police Air Support - e-petition
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I take it you have not bothered to read the regular tweets from the various units?
Here is another example of disproprtionate waste of public money.....
From the Thurrock Gazette.
A South Ockendon helicopter operation to catch a man for car theft has ended successfully with a court hearing.
Thomas Enever, 38, of Hampden Crescent, Warley, who is unemployed, has been charged with using a motor vehicle without insurance and driving whilst disqualified.
The multi-man pursuit involved CID officers, a dog unit, South Ockendon police officers, and a police helicopter.
He was arrested on 1.25pm on February 12 in in Aire Drive, South Ockendon.
The arrest came following an incident in Warley where a Vauxhall Corsa was taken from a driveway.
The car was recovered and returned to its owner.
His hearing is set for February 27 at Basildon Magistrates' Court. He has been bailed till then.
http://www.thurrockgazette.co.uk/new...earing/?ref=mr
Total cost probably well north of £10,000
Or perhaps this heinous crime was worth the effort?
The police helicopter, a dog unit and officers were out in force to arrest two men following the theft of a Land Rover.(according to a report in last weeks Maldon Standard!)
An Essex Police spokesman said: “Two men were arrested last night following the theft of a Land Rover in Purleigh.
“Police were called around 10.20pm to a report the Land Rover Defender had been stolen from a house in Purleigh.
“The police helicopter assisted and located and tracked the vehicle to Rawreth Lane, Rawreth.
“Officers on the ground attended and arrested two men on suspicion of theft of a motor vehicle.
“One of the men was from Braintree and one from Pitsea, both aged 19.
“They were taken to Chelmsford Police Station for further questioning.”
Sergeant Paul Austin of Maldon Police took to Twitter to spread the news of the arrests yesterday evening.
He tweeted: “Cracking job! Landrover stolen in #Purleigh this evening. Vehicle located by @NPAS_Boreham & suspects decamp. Two arrested by Dog unit!”
Essex is obviously as dangerous at parts of the Bronx or maybe the local chief has got another camera crew filming more reality tv?
Here is another example of disproprtionate waste of public money.....
From the Thurrock Gazette.
A South Ockendon helicopter operation to catch a man for car theft has ended successfully with a court hearing.
Thomas Enever, 38, of Hampden Crescent, Warley, who is unemployed, has been charged with using a motor vehicle without insurance and driving whilst disqualified.
The multi-man pursuit involved CID officers, a dog unit, South Ockendon police officers, and a police helicopter.
He was arrested on 1.25pm on February 12 in in Aire Drive, South Ockendon.
The arrest came following an incident in Warley where a Vauxhall Corsa was taken from a driveway.
The car was recovered and returned to its owner.
His hearing is set for February 27 at Basildon Magistrates' Court. He has been bailed till then.
http://www.thurrockgazette.co.uk/new...earing/?ref=mr
Total cost probably well north of £10,000
Or perhaps this heinous crime was worth the effort?
The police helicopter, a dog unit and officers were out in force to arrest two men following the theft of a Land Rover.(according to a report in last weeks Maldon Standard!)
An Essex Police spokesman said: “Two men were arrested last night following the theft of a Land Rover in Purleigh.
“Police were called around 10.20pm to a report the Land Rover Defender had been stolen from a house in Purleigh.
“The police helicopter assisted and located and tracked the vehicle to Rawreth Lane, Rawreth.
“Officers on the ground attended and arrested two men on suspicion of theft of a motor vehicle.
“One of the men was from Braintree and one from Pitsea, both aged 19.
“They were taken to Chelmsford Police Station for further questioning.”
Sergeant Paul Austin of Maldon Police took to Twitter to spread the news of the arrests yesterday evening.
He tweeted: “Cracking job! Landrover stolen in #Purleigh this evening. Vehicle located by @NPAS_Boreham & suspects decamp. Two arrested by Dog unit!”
Essex is obviously as dangerous at parts of the Bronx or maybe the local chief has got another camera crew filming more reality tv?
Last edited by Romeopapa; 28th Feb 2015 at 08:14.
RP Now I get it! We should dump all sorts of detection equipment incase we inadvertently arrest someone who just might be bailed or let off by the courts!
Actually come to think about it, why have a Police Force at all? I'm sure that based on your philosophy once people got used to the fact that all laws were a waste of time because the courts take too lenient a view sometimes, then eventually it would all settle down. No one would have the right to life or own property freedom for all! Is that it?
TF
Actually come to think about it, why have a Police Force at all? I'm sure that based on your philosophy once people got used to the fact that all laws were a waste of time because the courts take too lenient a view sometimes, then eventually it would all settle down. No one would have the right to life or own property freedom for all! Is that it?
TF
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Not at all but expensive manpower and equipment needs to be used with common sense.
Scanning through the various police helicopter units tweets that does not appear to be the case and frequently the helicopter crew are called in simply because they are there.
Just look at this disproportionate response to an incident that could have been sorted out on the ground by some old fashioned style policing.
This event was reported in Sidcups local paper last week.
'7 police cars and vans and a helicopter' called to Sidcup station after man prevents train from leaving.
Police were called to Sidcup station yesterday evening (January 15) after a man prevented a train from leaving by obstructing the doors.
At the time of the incident, which happened at around 10pm, Abbie Thomson tweeted: "Just followed a police chase, about 7 police cars and vans and a helicopter at Sidcup station.
"What the f*** has happened."
A police spokesman said: "We were called to Sidcup railway station just after 10pm after a report of a man preventing a train from leaving by obstructing the doors.
"BTP officers attended, alongside colleagues from the Metropolitan Police Service, and stopped two men close to the station.
"Words of advice were given and no further action was taken.
"The train departed prior to officers arriving."
Whoever authorised the response needs their head checking.
It was obviously a guy trying to hold the train for his late running friend.
It is impossible to enjoy London anymore without the incessant wailing of police sirens and the persistent sound of helicopters overhead. The city has more cameras than anywhere else on the planet.
In Singapore or Bangkok the matter would have been dealt with without the above scenario.
Scanning through the various police helicopter units tweets that does not appear to be the case and frequently the helicopter crew are called in simply because they are there.
Just look at this disproportionate response to an incident that could have been sorted out on the ground by some old fashioned style policing.
This event was reported in Sidcups local paper last week.
'7 police cars and vans and a helicopter' called to Sidcup station after man prevents train from leaving.
Police were called to Sidcup station yesterday evening (January 15) after a man prevented a train from leaving by obstructing the doors.
At the time of the incident, which happened at around 10pm, Abbie Thomson tweeted: "Just followed a police chase, about 7 police cars and vans and a helicopter at Sidcup station.
"What the f*** has happened."
A police spokesman said: "We were called to Sidcup railway station just after 10pm after a report of a man preventing a train from leaving by obstructing the doors.
"BTP officers attended, alongside colleagues from the Metropolitan Police Service, and stopped two men close to the station.
"Words of advice were given and no further action was taken.
"The train departed prior to officers arriving."
Whoever authorised the response needs their head checking.
It was obviously a guy trying to hold the train for his late running friend.
It is impossible to enjoy London anymore without the incessant wailing of police sirens and the persistent sound of helicopters overhead. The city has more cameras than anywhere else on the planet.
In Singapore or Bangkok the matter would have been dealt with without the above scenario.
Romeopapa,
You have made your point (futile as it is) ad infinitum and are becoming a tedious troll. I'd suggest a break, or go to the Avalon Airshow and relax.
Meanwhile the issue of law enforcement is to do just that, both to apprehend criminals and to discourage others from offending by enforcing the law. Cherry picking statistics (from Twitter, for goodness sake!) achieves nothing in the face of contributions from experienced and knowledgeable professionals.
Using a helicopter as an airborne divvy van has been and gone in Victoria (ASTRO, as it was known) as it was essentially a Melbourne-centric service. The UK has had such success with a similar concept that the bean counters seem to have forgotten such problems as ram raids (which were both financially and socially expensive) that have been all but stopped by good policing including the use of Polair helicopters.
Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.
You have made your point (futile as it is) ad infinitum and are becoming a tedious troll. I'd suggest a break, or go to the Avalon Airshow and relax.
Meanwhile the issue of law enforcement is to do just that, both to apprehend criminals and to discourage others from offending by enforcing the law. Cherry picking statistics (from Twitter, for goodness sake!) achieves nothing in the face of contributions from experienced and knowledgeable professionals.
Using a helicopter as an airborne divvy van has been and gone in Victoria (ASTRO, as it was known) as it was essentially a Melbourne-centric service. The UK has had such success with a similar concept that the bean counters seem to have forgotten such problems as ram raids (which were both financially and socially expensive) that have been all but stopped by good policing including the use of Polair helicopters.
Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.
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The problem in the UK John is the police are still using helicopters as airborne divvy vans. (Oz speak for police vans used to round up minor hooligans usually drunks on a Saturday night).
The tweets are from police air support units!
The costs of police air support is funded by the public.
Meanwhile the excellent network of air ambulances has to rely on charity.
There is probably a future where both operations are combined to a degree.
UK air ambulance crews could easily carry out missing persons tasks.
The Australian police do not waste money the way their pom cousins do. Their fleet has much more of a public service remit including air ambulance tasking.
This thread is about an e-petition so there will be discussion on both sides.
Looking at the number who have signed so far it looks like being a dismal failure.
By posting recent examples of newspaper stories highlighting the blatant waste by those in command is just demonstrating what the public reads everyday.
I don't see what my support for the Melbourne air show has to do with this
The tweets are from police air support units!
The costs of police air support is funded by the public.
Meanwhile the excellent network of air ambulances has to rely on charity.
There is probably a future where both operations are combined to a degree.
UK air ambulance crews could easily carry out missing persons tasks.
The Australian police do not waste money the way their pom cousins do. Their fleet has much more of a public service remit including air ambulance tasking.
This thread is about an e-petition so there will be discussion on both sides.
Looking at the number who have signed so far it looks like being a dismal failure.
By posting recent examples of newspaper stories highlighting the blatant waste by those in command is just demonstrating what the public reads everyday.
I don't see what my support for the Melbourne air show has to do with this
Last edited by Romeopapa; 28th Feb 2015 at 11:31.
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If the criminals don't care about the helicopter, why did Merseyside finest try SO hard to destroy ours? We were affecting their businesses, finding cannabis farms, helping deny the roads. (Do some research on that, it works). When you "get out there" and start turning stones over, 99 are trivial stops but one is a biggie. The day you take your attitude, you have lost. You can spout all you want about value for money, policing ISN'T value for money, like defence spending.
It's about the social level you are prepared to go down to.
How low will YOU go????????
It's about the social level you are prepared to go down to.
How low will YOU go????????
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PS, in some areas of the UK, if you send a "plod on a bike" to deal with crime........ he will return without a bike.......
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They would not stop so low as a bike in Liverpool. A police car at least
Meanwhile from Police Magazine.
And in other news, it turns out one silly copper reported his own car as stolen.
The unnamed PC was tracking down a suspect in Doncaster, Yorkshire, when he hopped in an unmarked police car to knock on some doors.
But after getting no joy he decided to used automatic number plate recognition to find out if the suspects motor was parked in the street.
To his shock he discovered a silver Vauxhall Corsa and, not realising it was the car hed just stepped out of, contacted his colleagues to report a stolen police
However, when his colleague arrived on the scene, the red-faced officer was told: Thats our bloody car, youve just got out of it.
A police source said: There are a few unmarked pool cars which officers can use as and when they need them.
This officer obviously didnt clock the car he was using and radioed it in as a potentially stolen police car its highly embarrassing, but policemen are only human and make mistakes.
Meanwhile from Police Magazine.
And in other news, it turns out one silly copper reported his own car as stolen.
The unnamed PC was tracking down a suspect in Doncaster, Yorkshire, when he hopped in an unmarked police car to knock on some doors.
But after getting no joy he decided to used automatic number plate recognition to find out if the suspects motor was parked in the street.
To his shock he discovered a silver Vauxhall Corsa and, not realising it was the car hed just stepped out of, contacted his colleagues to report a stolen police
However, when his colleague arrived on the scene, the red-faced officer was told: Thats our bloody car, youve just got out of it.
A police source said: There are a few unmarked pool cars which officers can use as and when they need them.
This officer obviously didnt clock the car he was using and radioed it in as a potentially stolen police car its highly embarrassing, but policemen are only human and make mistakes.
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This whole problem on how to fund the NPAS could be solved if the home office did a deal with the CAA and negotiated an exemption from public transport rules and twin engine compliance.
Simples.
Simples.
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Fact: Two EC135s covering 5 counties prior to NPAS cost £1000 per flying hour this includes the paperclip.
Fact: the Helicopter is a force multiplier!!!!!! Helicopter gets on scene quickly, gets a handle on the task easily due to it's unique perspective, sorts it just as quickly, if tetra allows, and leaves. This means the units on the ground the staff in the control room can move on to the next burning issue so much quicker. Therefore you can tick off 10 tasks an hour with the helicopter involved compared to 1 without the helicopter because the helicopter saves you 10.000s in man hours on the ground.
Not to mention how it generates a safety blanket for the poorly paid bobbies on the ground in their much reduced numbers.
Fact: the Helicopter is a force multiplier!!!!!! Helicopter gets on scene quickly, gets a handle on the task easily due to it's unique perspective, sorts it just as quickly, if tetra allows, and leaves. This means the units on the ground the staff in the control room can move on to the next burning issue so much quicker. Therefore you can tick off 10 tasks an hour with the helicopter involved compared to 1 without the helicopter because the helicopter saves you 10.000s in man hours on the ground.
Not to mention how it generates a safety blanket for the poorly paid bobbies on the ground in their much reduced numbers.
As an outsider, we have seen what Reaper and Preditor can do, maybe a smaller sized version could do the helicopters job. Drone technology is the way to go.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Have I missed the links to these petitions?
Drones
Single engines
Tougher sentencing
Drones
Single engines
Tougher sentencing
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RP,
Now your posts are not only boring but completely irrelevant -
what has that "story" of the Corsa got to do with Police Air Support ?
Whilst I wouldn' wish it on anyone, I wonder what your attitude would be
if it was YOU or one of yours that had their Land Rover / car stolen,
or were criticailly injured or worse by collsion with same,
or it was one of your Relatives that had gone missing,
or was subject of a violent domestric incident,
or touched by any of the multitude of tasks that Police air Support regularly assist with?
( Try Googling how many people are murdered in the UK as a result of a Domestic incident ).
Chopjock - Still banging the same old drum - the skin must be wearing thin by now.
Sadly, as most of us know, the likelihood of either petiton making any difference at all, is extremely low -
Decisions have been made, and orders have been given,
just like when Nick Herbert first ordered that all forces SHALL join NPAS, no matter what !
Nail
Now your posts are not only boring but completely irrelevant -
what has that "story" of the Corsa got to do with Police Air Support ?
Whilst I wouldn' wish it on anyone, I wonder what your attitude would be
if it was YOU or one of yours that had their Land Rover / car stolen,
or were criticailly injured or worse by collsion with same,
or it was one of your Relatives that had gone missing,
or was subject of a violent domestric incident,
or touched by any of the multitude of tasks that Police air Support regularly assist with?
( Try Googling how many people are murdered in the UK as a result of a Domestic incident ).
Chopjock - Still banging the same old drum - the skin must be wearing thin by now.
Sadly, as most of us know, the likelihood of either petiton making any difference at all, is extremely low -
Decisions have been made, and orders have been given,
just like when Nick Herbert first ordered that all forces SHALL join NPAS, no matter what !
Nail
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The point I am trying to make is the the way a valuable resource such as police air support is wasted in around 75% of all cases.
For sure the pilots air observers and ground staff want to retain the bases but the man in the street is paying.
The like of Silso can not defend the wasted time and money such as the railway incident I quoted.
A GoPro on a telescopic van mounted mast is a hell of a lot cheaper than air support for shooting pictures of an RTA.
Drones can also do a lot of the misper work for a fraction of the cost.
I appreciate air support officers like being in the cushy exciting world of aviation but they joined as PC's and thats where they will return.
For sure the pilots air observers and ground staff want to retain the bases but the man in the street is paying.
The like of Silso can not defend the wasted time and money such as the railway incident I quoted.
A GoPro on a telescopic van mounted mast is a hell of a lot cheaper than air support for shooting pictures of an RTA.
Drones can also do a lot of the misper work for a fraction of the cost.
I appreciate air support officers like being in the cushy exciting world of aviation but they joined as PC's and thats where they will return.
RP,
Policing might be that quiet in OZ but I can assure you that in the UK most times in our Cities it is not.
As a Chief Inspector in the 80's I was getting totally disillusioned by the numbers of fast Hatchbacks that were being stolen. Most of the time just to try & goad the Police into entering into high speed chases. I can tell you it was bloody dangerous.
Then came ram raiding! The UK rapidly became the ram raiding capital of Europe. Again it was pretty hopeless, - we had lost the initiative and were suffering as a result.
The advent of the Police helicopter gave us back that initiative, we caught the ****ards nearly every time. That soon stopped their game.
Muggings were reduced too! Photographing accident scenes only came about because we were airborne anyway and could do it on the way back from an operational shout. So did many other less important cases.
But part of our trouble was that our efficiency brought about a reduction in crime, & politicians wanted to spend elsewhere. At the same time many of our units forgot the vital need to keep on telling people just how good we were at keeping the lid on it.
Well its practically all gone now NPAs reins supreme and rapid response a thing of the past. I wonder how long it will take before the criminal realizes its open house again!
TF
Policing might be that quiet in OZ but I can assure you that in the UK most times in our Cities it is not.
As a Chief Inspector in the 80's I was getting totally disillusioned by the numbers of fast Hatchbacks that were being stolen. Most of the time just to try & goad the Police into entering into high speed chases. I can tell you it was bloody dangerous.
Then came ram raiding! The UK rapidly became the ram raiding capital of Europe. Again it was pretty hopeless, - we had lost the initiative and were suffering as a result.
The advent of the Police helicopter gave us back that initiative, we caught the ****ards nearly every time. That soon stopped their game.
Muggings were reduced too! Photographing accident scenes only came about because we were airborne anyway and could do it on the way back from an operational shout. So did many other less important cases.
But part of our trouble was that our efficiency brought about a reduction in crime, & politicians wanted to spend elsewhere. At the same time many of our units forgot the vital need to keep on telling people just how good we were at keeping the lid on it.
Well its practically all gone now NPAs reins supreme and rapid response a thing of the past. I wonder how long it will take before the criminal realizes its open house again!
TF
Last edited by tigerfish; 1st Mar 2015 at 09:07. Reason: mistakes in grammer
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Interesting you suggest a police helicopter can stop a mugging?
How exactly can you achieve that?
When an innocent newspaper vendor was caught up in a so called police 'kettling' operation a couple of years ago no footage came from the Met helicopters to show the true story.
The victim was thrown to the ground by a PC and public and press footage later incriminated the officer who was dismissed.
Technology has seen rapid development in drones and GoPro cameras.
Why does London need helicopters hovering overhead when there are thousands of ground based cameras with higher definition plus cameras on buses taxis etc .
Australia is a unique situation. A massive country with few people out side the five big cities but
crime spread across huge areas.
Police use helicopters for crime management ,paramedic and search and rescue work.
Perhaps there is an argument for combined ops in rural Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland?
How exactly can you achieve that?
When an innocent newspaper vendor was caught up in a so called police 'kettling' operation a couple of years ago no footage came from the Met helicopters to show the true story.
The victim was thrown to the ground by a PC and public and press footage later incriminated the officer who was dismissed.
Technology has seen rapid development in drones and GoPro cameras.
Why does London need helicopters hovering overhead when there are thousands of ground based cameras with higher definition plus cameras on buses taxis etc .
Australia is a unique situation. A massive country with few people out side the five big cities but
crime spread across huge areas.
Police use helicopters for crime management ,paramedic and search and rescue work.
Perhaps there is an argument for combined ops in rural Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland?
Thread Starter
RP
You really have no idea, do you.
Yes, air support may be 'wasted' - please define wasted, by the way - in 75% of tasks, (please quote the unbiased source for this figure), but that is with hindsight. It's only by deploying to these jobs and investigating from a safe distance, do we know if it is a crap job or something that is worth the cost and then some.
Drones for mispers! Are you having a laugh? Would you be happy to take the kit out the back of your patrol car, lug it across the fields for a couple of miles to start the search from the last known position?
How would you cover the 15 mile route of the search quickly? Running behind it with the remote controller around your neck?
Is there a commercial drone available that can do TI searches?
Can you photo a half mile of relevant road for an RTA fatal inquiry with a camera on a stick? Not unless your stick can extend to 500'.
You really have no idea, do you.
Yes, air support may be 'wasted' - please define wasted, by the way - in 75% of tasks, (please quote the unbiased source for this figure), but that is with hindsight. It's only by deploying to these jobs and investigating from a safe distance, do we know if it is a crap job or something that is worth the cost and then some.
Drones for mispers! Are you having a laugh? Would you be happy to take the kit out the back of your patrol car, lug it across the fields for a couple of miles to start the search from the last known position?
How would you cover the 15 mile route of the search quickly? Running behind it with the remote controller around your neck?
Is there a commercial drone available that can do TI searches?
Can you photo a half mile of relevant road for an RTA fatal inquiry with a camera on a stick? Not unless your stick can extend to 500'.
RP,
You really are a bit sad! Helicopters stop muggings by making the arrest of the culprit more likely. Strangely enough the increased likelihood of getting caught reduces the culprits enthusiasm for the job.
My view on the subject is not imagination for I have been the person responsible to the public for the success or otherwise of my anti crime measures.
In the years 1990 - 1995 we had air support on a temporary abd casual basis. 3 months there and three months not etc. During that period we could mirror the rise & fall of our street crime by the presence or not of our Helicopter.
Also we stopped the helicopter at 0300 to save money. We soon noticed that crime after 0300 was rising!
The temporary cure for that one was for the control room to have periodic conversations with our none existing aircraft. Ground based units suitable briefed provided the other end of the conversation!
So what it worked for a while!
I say again RP you have a very shallow knowledge of Police work. Age and service length please!
TF
You really are a bit sad! Helicopters stop muggings by making the arrest of the culprit more likely. Strangely enough the increased likelihood of getting caught reduces the culprits enthusiasm for the job.
My view on the subject is not imagination for I have been the person responsible to the public for the success or otherwise of my anti crime measures.
In the years 1990 - 1995 we had air support on a temporary abd casual basis. 3 months there and three months not etc. During that period we could mirror the rise & fall of our street crime by the presence or not of our Helicopter.
Also we stopped the helicopter at 0300 to save money. We soon noticed that crime after 0300 was rising!
The temporary cure for that one was for the control room to have periodic conversations with our none existing aircraft. Ground based units suitable briefed provided the other end of the conversation!
So what it worked for a while!
I say again RP you have a very shallow knowledge of Police work. Age and service length please!
TF