FAA fixed-wing add on?

[hueyracer]

Maybe any of you rotor heads can help:

FAA ATPL(H)
EASA ATPL(H) IR
almost 4500 flight hours, including >700 night and >400 IFR.

Looking at adding a FAA ATPL(A) to my cv…..

What needs to be done?
Please point to the appropriate sections, share your experience…

It looks to me that i will have to get a FAA CPL(A) with IR initially…..with the written exams, of course…then continue towards the ATPL(A)?

Any credits from my helo-time?

[rick1128]

I went the other way, but the process will be similar. Since you didn't mention it, I assume at the present you do not any airplane ratings. You will have to get your commercial add-on first, as the ATP requires 250 PIC in airplanes. The commercial add-on requires 50 hrs in airplanes. The instrument rating requires 15 hours in airplanes. If you are current on instruments you will be bored out of your skull before you finish the 15 hours. However, since the commercial certificate requires at least 10 hours of instrument time, you can quickly finish that portion up. There are no additional written required for the commercial or instrument. The ATP however does require a written exam. You do get credit for your helicopter time. All you have to comply with is the times that say airplane.

I would suggest that you get an instructor that is dual rated. That way the instructor will understand where you will have problems. The ATP (A) written is an add-on written so it is quite a bit shorter. I would try to take it prior to August 14, 2014, as the requirements to take it will change quite dramatically on that date.

Good luck

[hueyracer]

That´s right, i have never flown fixed wings before…

I got a chance to do some time in africa-with a locally registered aircraft, and a FAA license will easily be converted (as a local license is impossible to get), so once i got a CPL/IR, the hours will come easily…

When you say that the CPL requires 50, the IR 15 hours-can the IR be included in the 50 h airplane?

[multycpl]

Get the written test done before the end of July....Everything changes 1st Aug.


http://www.avweb.com/news/features/T...s221453-1.html

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=9d09b530e987ceff87362dd42f6b7787&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.7 .1.4&rgn=div8

[rick1128]

Huey,

Yes it can. Under the current regulations you have to have at least 10 hours of IR training for the CPL anyway and under Part 61 the hours count. Unless you do the PPL add-on first (which is not required) you will have to take the instrument check ride after the commercial. In your case I would recommend that you do not do the PPL. As it is not required and would just increase the time frame.

[hueyracer]

Thanks for the advice-much appreciated…

[Gordy]

Looks like you will need 250 hours PIC in an airplane, of which 100 is cross country and 25 is night----Your helo hours will count for a all the rest of the hours requirements. There are some specific training maneuvers etc but that is the basic hours requirements. Highlights added

Best way would be to get a private airplane rating and start building PIC hours in airplanes.

ATP Hours requirements

Sec. 61.159

Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:

(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.
(2) 100 hours of night flight time.

(3) 50 hours of flight time in the class of airplane for the rating sought. A maximum of 25 hours of training in a full flight simulator representing the class of airplane for the rating sought may be credited toward the flight time requirement of this paragraph if the training was accomplished as part of an approved training course in parts 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter. A flight training device or aviation training device may not be used to satisfy this requirement.

(4) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to the following:


(i) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(4)(ii) of this section, an applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.
(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(4) of this section if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

(iii) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane.


(5) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least--

(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and
(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.


(6) Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section or § 61.160 may be obtained in a full flight simulator or flight training device provided the device represents an airplane and the aeronautical experience was accomplished as part of an approved training course in parts 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter.

(b) A person who has performed at least 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hour of night flight time to satisfy the requirements of paragraph (a)(2) of this section; however, not more than 25 hours of night flight time may be credited in this manner.
(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:


(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane--

(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;
(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or

(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember.


(2) Flight-engineer time, provided the time--

(i) Is acquired in an airplane required to have a flight engineer by the airplane's flight manual or type certificate;
(ii) Is acquired while engaged in operations under part 121 of this chapter for which a flight engineer is required;

(iii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a pilot training program approved under part 121 of this chapter; and

(iv) Does not exceed more than 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.


(3) Flight-engineer time, provided the flight time--

(i) Is acquired as a U.S. Armed Forces' flight engineer crewmember in an airplane that requires a flight engineer crewmember by the flight manual;
(ii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a flight engineer crewmember training program for the U.S. Armed Forces; and

(iii) Does not exceed 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.

(d) An applicant is issued an airline transport pilot certificate with the limitation, "Holder does not meet the pilot in command aeronautical experience requirements of ICAO," as prescribed under Article 39 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, if the applicant does not meet the ICAO requirements contained in Annex 1 "Personnel Licensing" to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, but otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of this section.
(e) An applicant is entitled to an airline transport pilot certificate without the ICAO limitation specified under paragraph (d) of this section when the applicant presents satisfactory evidence of having met the ICAO requirements under paragraph (d) of this section and otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of this section.


Amdt. 61-130B, Eff. 12/24/2013

[Peter PanPan]

It's always a good idea to get a PPL add-on since it enables you to log PIC time during dual instruction flights. Otherwise you need a need an endorsement every single time you need to build those 50 PIC hours for the CPL portion. If you do your PPL by the minimum requirements you'll only have used 20 hours dual time, commercial maneuvers are pretty much the same as PPL anyways so it's good practice.

[Gordy]

No need to do the commercial license, as this is an add-on, just the PPL to log PIC. (Highlight added).

FAR Part 61 Sec. 61.153 effective as of 07/15/2013

Sec. 61.153

Eligibility requirements: General.

To be eligible for an airline transport pilot certificate, a person must:
(a) Meet the following age requirements:


(1) For an airline transport pilot certificate obtained under the aeronautical experience requirements of §§ 61.159, 61.161, or 61.163, be at least 23 years of age; or
(2) For an airline transport pilot certificate obtained under the aeronautical experience requirements of § 61.160, be at least 21 years of age.


(b) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicant's pilot certificate as are necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft;
(c) Be of good moral character;

(d) Meet at least one of the following requirements:


(1) Holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating issued under this part;
(2) Meet the military experience requirements under Sec. 61.73 of this part to qualify for a commercial pilot certificate, and an instrument rating if the person is a rated military pilot or former rated military pilot of an Armed Force of the United States; or

(3) Holds either a foreign airline transport pilot license with instrument privileges, or a foreign commercial pilot license with an instrument rating, that--


(i) Was issued by a contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation; and
(ii) Contains no geographical limitations.

(e) After July 31, 2014, for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an airline transport pilot certificate obtained concurrently with an airplane type rating, receive a graduation certificate from an authorized training provider certifying completion of the airline transport pilot certification training program specified in § 61.156 before applying for the knowledge test required by paragraph (g) of this section;
(f) Meet the aeronautical experience requirements of this subpart that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought before applying for the practical test;

(g) Pass a knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge areas of Sec. 61.155(c) of this part that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought;

(h) Pass the practical test on the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.157(e) of this part that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought; and

(i) Comply with the sections of this subpart that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought.


Amdt. 61-130, Eff. 7/15/2013

[alj87]

help?

can anyone assist please one how best to convert easa cpl (h) to faa cpl(H)?

[MartinCh]

Gordy,

The point (1) of last point, ie his FAA ATPL(H) satisfies 'issued under this part' as it includes instrument privileges,

BUT,

I'm not 100% on different class and category in his case.
Strictly speaking, meeting aeronautical experience, one can do CPL(H) to PPL(A) despite some FAA CFIs saying otherwise, but logging the FAA PIC time etc, can be sticky point.

He could also combine foreign (ICAO) and FAA commercial and instrument, mix'n'match, but if he doesn't have any fixed wing licenses outside FAA world, then I'd rather get specific interpretation. Or are you going by the fact that 'different/same class category' is not mentioned, ie it doesn't matter?

Definitely get the ATP written by end of July to avoid the extra hassle coming up. FYI, Farnborough is booked out, so is Paris FSI according to a post elsewhere on pprune. I had it direct from FSI UK.
That is, if you are happy to rent/pay or secure some job to knock off the fixed wing hours as per 61.159.

Also, don't forget that to get twin ATP, you need 50hrs in class/category It can be mix of your dual training for FAA ratings and any work/renting.

Another thing is, if i the end needing to do FAA commercial fixed wing first, then due to the requirements of initial twin commercial, it's easier/faster to get single engine first and then it's proficiency based for twin add on. FAA initial commercial in fixed wing needs to be done in complex (RG/VP/CS) and you need 10hrs of training in complex aeroplane, but can do some twin time which is still complex for ASEL - single eng comm checkride first. UNLESS you want to rack up the twin time for ATP during your commercial and isntrument training in US, that is. Then you're still left with job or renting of 200+hrs. Maybe somewhere in light twin ops considering your helicopter hours.

Can you leave your helicopter job for few months to a year, to get all this? OR use time between 'hitches'? Can you work in the US/work rights? I'm sure some Part 135 ops job after enough hours/training in twin could be viable considering your heli experience.

[hueyracer]

The reason for me wanting to get a FAA ATPL is that one of the companies i work for has both:

A helicopter AND a fixed wing (which is N-registered, but operated by an outfit out of the US).

So i would be able to continue flying my helo, but do the fixed wing on several trips a week (logging about 5-7 hours every day i fly it)…

Would this make sense?

[MartinCh]

and you need ATP to fly it at work? If not, then it's straightforward quick FAA comm/ifr. If non-US national, only needing the TSA 'clearance' for twin rating, too. As you say, the hours flown would easily add up to those required for ATP in current conditions, till end of July passing ATP written. The single complex vs twin time is up to you/your budget and bearing in mind the initial twin commercial needs plenty twin dual training, 5hrs iFR in twin, the qualifying XC, night, etc.

Get interpretation on(whether) needing cpl and ir in class/category or not and heli ATP would be enough. Doing European ratings in your case doesn't make sense obviously due to the European PIC for IR and CPL even though you'd not have to do much IR training in aircraft. So using the ICAO licence/ratings clause is irrelevant to you.

[MarkerInbound]

alj,

There is no conversion of foreign licenses above the private level in FAA land. To get any FAA commercial you would have to get past TSA, get a medical, sit the written and pass a checkride.

[Gordy]

one can do CPL(H) to PPL(A) despite some FAA CFIs saying otherwise, but logging the FAA PIC time etc, can be sticky point.

There is no sticky point...there are 2 ways to log PIC: (There may be another way when dealing with airships...)

1. Hold a category and class rating for that aircraft and act as PIC.
2. Have a solo endorsement issued under part 61.87 and be the sole occupant of the aircraft.
3. As per FAR 61.89(b) when operating an airship and acting as PIC within the limitations of that rule: (b) A student pilot may not act as a required pilot flight crewmember on any aircraft for which more than one pilot is required by the type certificate of the aircraft or regulations under which the flight is conducted, except when receiving flight training from an authorized instructor on board an airship, and no person other than a required flight crewmember is carried on the aircraft.

[hueyracer]

Looks like this would be the easier way, then…(initially)...

If not, then it's straightforward quick FAA comm/ifr

It seems i did not give you guys all the information necessary-my apologies…


The company operates small Single Engine Aircrafts in Africa (some N-registered, some african registered).
The local CAA accepts FAA licenses and converts them into its local equivalent easily, or (in my case) even accepted the FAA license to fly the local registered aircraft (approval of CAA as written statement).

So basically you are right:
Initially i would only need comm/IR…and only go for ATP in the long term..

Thanks for pointing that out…
In europe the path straight to ATPL is much easier (as they offer "combined courses" that finish with the fATPL)…

[MartinCh]

why bother with EASA aeroplane stuff if you've got the heli licenses and only need FAA papers to fly f/w? If you fly where I'm thinking (or vaguely remembering the company's website and fleet), then I'd not spend money on more EASA stuff unless really needed. You'd have generous allowance for the IR on f/w in Europe, but if you can fly small single engine and day VFR, you don't even need the IR or twin stuff just yet, but then, why not do it all, budget permitting, while getting the training for FAA commercial.

I'm envious of your position/job, except maybe location for now. I'd like to be able to fly both rotary and f/w, but it depends on jobs/experience/opportunities to match both and in some countries, flight duty hours/days can be headache more than actual hours in the air.

As mentioned, do get the FAA ATP done by end of July to keep simple upgrade to full FAA ATP. If you're not likely to need f/w instrument, you may consider doing VFR commercial and then 'brush up' on checkride prep doing IFR checkride (if your heli IFR is not enough, get that black/white from Chief Counsel) for the ATP.

In general, budget allowing, no point not doing instrument with twin, as for the twin checkride with IFR privileges, even having ASEL IR, you have to shoot an approach or two in twin/OEI simulation and as mentioned, even if doing the checkride ASEL initial in Arrow/Skylane/172RG, the twin time/training is still OK as complex training for ASEL, even half-way done ME rating, back to complex single, checkride/s, then 'proficiency based' twin add on.

Hell, for the heck of it, if you go to place like Adventure Seaplanes in Minnesota and fly 182 or 206 on floats, either one or both equipped with IFR deck and VP/CS amphibs, so counting as complex time towards ASEL/S commercial, if doing checkride doing both splash and squeaks..
That is, if you fancied something different, yet 3 birds with one stone scenario. I know I'd love to do that, just not yet. I'm dreaming of Sheble's Beech 18 on floats in Arizona. Bit pricey, but what an experience, twin seaplane in piece of history. I'm digressing, ehrm.

[rick1128]

Martin,

For the FAA FW commercial, you have to have the instrument rating or you have a restriction put on your certificate. The Civil Aviation Authorities I have dealt with will not accept a certificate with restrictions for validations or conversions. Besides you have to have at least 10 hours of instrument training for the commercial and that counts toward the 15 hours for the instrument add-on, so take the extra day and get the instrument rating.

[MartinCh]

Good point/advice to keep in mind, Rick. Treating commercial without instrument as restriction rather than not having the extra privileges seems to be potential minefield for validations. Still much less nonsense in FAA than I see/read about elsewhere.

[ediks]

Consider doing a multi/IR add on??

It may be possible to get a multiengine rating which conveniently circumnavigates you having to get a Private Pilot's Certificate (remember no licences in the US)
You get to log the PIC time during training as being under supervision and you can then get an Instrument rating added on at the same time as well if you do the specific training required.
It's a more expensive route to getting fixed wing ratings but it's definitely much quicker!