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Old 20th Mar 2017, 09:20   #821 (permalink)
 
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I don't think anyone is talking about doing a zero/zero IF take off without SAS or AP - again, not impossible but does need to be practised.

This crash was in a fully-IFR capable twin with more bells and whistles in the AP than you can shake a stick at. The simple application of a basic technique would have saved their lives - or they could have just said No.
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 09:41   #822 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by crab@SAAvn.co.uk View Post
- or they could have just said No.


For me that has to be the biggest learning point for any pilot; ATPL, CPL and PPL alike. No matter
  • how frightened you are of the big, scary businessman
  • what your employer wants
  • what you promised your friends for this weekend
  • how important it is to get to where you hoped you were going
you are the Captain; if the combination of conditions / machine / crew / training makes THIS FLIGHT unsafe it is your duty and responsibility to say "No".


If you can't do that - for whatever reason - then the odds are high that one day you will figure badly in an accident report, and we will be here talking about how we can't understand why you did what you did.
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 11:16   #823 (permalink)
 
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Once upon a time a major British operator removed the Helipad Takeoff from the VMC Basecheck to save money. I could well see them omitting the Vertical IFR Departure for the same reason.

The day came when a crew had to medevac a patient from offshore to Aberdeen Hospital. To depart required a Helipad Takeoff which were not checked out to do so the company had to send a training captain out from Dyce to fly it back.

Allofasudden Helipad Takeoffs were back.
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 21:19   #824 (permalink)
 
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Its not a question that the vertical IFR departure is "verboten by the CAA", or that it is not approved by an operator.
If the rotorcraft flight manual says you can't fly less than 50 kts IMC, then you can't do it under anybody's rulebook, until the RFM is amended.
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 21:24   #825 (permalink)
 
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So then we come back to Geoffers point about rig departures. We all know it happens and can be done quite safely but because of the way the RFM is written it is technically verboten.

No one is suggesting extended flight below Vmini but to prevent the transition from hover to forward flight on instruments is to deny one of the great abilities of the helicopter.
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 23:04   #826 (permalink)

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The stated minimum visibility from private sites is 800 metres. Technically speaking, this does allow departures in fog.
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 23:26   #827 (permalink)
 
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If the rotorcraft flight manual says you can't fly less than 50 kts IMC, then you can't do it under anybody's rulebook, until the RFM is amended.
There is the rub....."The Rule is the Rule!",

Mind you we have had this argument over and over.

Challenging the Lawyers who write RFM's might be in order in certain cases....don't you think?

After all....in far too many instances...the RFM is written to be a one size fits all recipe that has a sole function of protecting the Factory's legal interests only.
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 23:59   #828 (permalink)

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I hope that those who have previously argued that in the UK, IFR departures from "non-IFR sites" are illegal, will note that the CAA don't agree with them.
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 00:29   #829 (permalink)
 
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The stated minimum visibility from private sites is 800 metres. Technically speaking, this does allow departures in fog.
If you have a minimum visibility of 800 Meters you might.....and of course you know this.....how? Have a Tape Measure in your Pilot's Kit Bag?
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 00:38   #830 (permalink)
 
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SAS

Quote:
After all....in far too many instances...the RFM is written to be a one size fits all recipe that has a sole function of protecting the Factory's legal interests only.


... until the day comes when they beat you over the head with it because something went wrong during the period 0 kts - Vmini and you crashed. The management are very good at turning a blind eye when it suits them but soon disappear from the scene when the lawyers come running. The industry has collectively cast a blind eye over this whole subject because the situation is TOO DIFFICULT to resolve without hampering the offshore support industry.

G.
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 00:56   #831 (permalink)

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If you have a minimum visibility of 800 Meters you might.....and of course you know this.....how? Have a Tape Measure in your Pilot's Kit Bag?
Metric, or Imperial (0.43 nm)? It could only ever be an estimate, in practical terms, unless it's a regularly used site. Or you could calibrate your legs and pace it out.
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 01:26   #832 (permalink)
 
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You wouldn't want to violate the Rule and sneak out with only 790 Feet Visibility would you?
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 01:57   #833 (permalink)
 
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It's very common in the US to pick up a IFR flight plan beginning at a point in space, if departing from a LZ without a instrument approach. Call the TRACON, get your clearance. They may ask you if you can maintain VFR to the first waypoint if the VFR transition is in controlled airspace and you may need to request special VFR. Picking up a pre-filed IFR flight plan in flight is also common, depending on how busy the sector controller is. I've always found ATC to be be extremely helpful and accommodating. How does this compare in the the UK?
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 02:11   #834 (permalink)
 
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As a Civvy - never done a towering IF departure in a relatively 'modern' aircraft with an excellent ap.
As a Mil pilot, did quite a few in a dinosaur aircraft with non-existent auto-pilot.
We all know that the accepted/approved/trained procedure for PC2DLE is 250m RVR, clear of obstructions etc etc, no reject option as you ain't landing back on the deck.
Done many VMC departures using the IF/Visual scan in pitch black with no discernible horizon.............but the fudge is definitely 250m RVR.
Which is laughable - on one departure I swear it was more like 240m but we vowed not to tell anyone.
I remember one shag suggesting they ask the rescue vessel to station at 250m until someone highlighted the 'obstruction-like' qualities of such a vessel, right where you would not want him.

This is old hat - fudge will continue until Mr Tesla and Mr Solar Panel save the world from our addiction to carbon fuels or the OEMs provide a suitable aircraft which the energy companies are mandated to use.
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 03:38   #835 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by EESDL View Post
As a Civvy - never done a towering IF departure in a relatively 'modern' aircraft with an excellent ap.
As a Mil pilot, did quite a few in a dinosaur aircraft with non-existent auto-pilot.
We all know that the accepted/approved/trained procedure for PC2DLE is 250m RVR, clear of obstructions etc etc, no reject option as you ain't landing back on the deck.
Done many VMC departures using the IF/Visual scan in pitch black with no discernible horizon.............but the fudge is definitely 250m RVR.
Which is laughable - on one departure I swear it was more like 240m but we vowed not to tell anyone.
I remember one shag suggesting they ask the rescue vessel to station at 250m until someone highlighted the 'obstruction-like' qualities of such a vessel, right where you would not want him.

This is old hat - fudge will continue until Mr Tesla and Mr Solar Panel save the world from our addiction to carbon fuels or the OEMs provide a suitable aircraft which the energy companies are mandated to use.
What language did you google translate that from?
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 06:43   #836 (permalink)
 
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Ah, that is ex-mil Anglais, I don't think google translate can turn that into spam
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 08:38   #837 (permalink)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Korsky View Post
It's very common in the US to pick up a IFR flight plan beginning at a point in space, if departing from a LZ without a instrument approach. Call the TRACON, get your clearance. They may ask you if you can maintain VFR to the first waypoint if the VFR transition is in controlled airspace and you may need to request special VFR. Picking up a pre-filed IFR flight plan in flight is also common, depending on how busy the sector controller is. I've always found ATC to be be extremely helpful and accommodating. How does this compare in the the UK?
In UK, helicopters operating from field sites seldom, if ever, "pick up a IFR flight plan". Most operate on an ad hoc basis, outside of controlled airspace, using lower airspace radar service where available (and there are significant gaps in the latter). There is no requirement to file an IFR flight plan when operating in Class G and no such thing as a clearance to operate within it. Most lower airspace in overland UK is Class G apart from airways, control areas, CTRs, and ATZs/MATZs. Basically, pilots manage their own departure and climb to MSA and pick up whatever en route ATC service they can glean. When requesting a radar service in Class G, controllers will generally advise that they can offer only a limited radar service.

In over fifteen years of corporate RW aviation, I've only ever filed one IFR flight plan prior to flight and that was almost fifteen years ago, simply because the captain decided to try it from a major airport to another minor one. In practice, we never got to fly any of the planned route and were messed about so badly we became concerned about our fuel state.
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 12:12   #838 (permalink)
 
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Crab,

It may shatter your World View but that translated quite easily into Spam....perhaps it might prove difficult for those who are limited to a single "dialect" but that post came across plain as Day.
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 14:52   #839 (permalink)
 
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Ah, but you've been well trained SAS
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 19:10   #840 (permalink)
 
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The RFM surely is a result of testing by manufacturer test-pilots?
If there was sufficient commercial pressure from operators saying they wanted to perform IMC hover takeoffs, then they would presumably test the helo under these conditions and approve a profile?
I can only assume that the profile is not there because there has not been the overt demand for it.
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