UK NPAS discussion thread: Mk 4
Change of name!
The post above from Whitehead 06 will be his last. I have now reverted to the original title of tigerfish.
Some longer service ppruners will recall that I was a fairly regular subscriber from about 2003 to 2011 when circumstances dictated my demise. I retained an interest as Whitehead06.
The battle with NPAS was lost on the plains of the economy, and we must now do what we can to make the best of what we have got. I have no bitterness towards NPAS and indeed do recognise that it is now mainly staffed by those who really do see the wood for the trees.
Accordingly I will do whatever I can, in any way that I can, to assist in the success of NPAS as it faces a continued & troubled future. Together we might all succeed in getting what we want.
tigerfish TF
Some longer service ppruners will recall that I was a fairly regular subscriber from about 2003 to 2011 when circumstances dictated my demise. I retained an interest as Whitehead06.
The battle with NPAS was lost on the plains of the economy, and we must now do what we can to make the best of what we have got. I have no bitterness towards NPAS and indeed do recognise that it is now mainly staffed by those who really do see the wood for the trees.
Accordingly I will do whatever I can, in any way that I can, to assist in the success of NPAS as it faces a continued & troubled future. Together we might all succeed in getting what we want.
tigerfish TF
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Thread Starter
Accordingly I will do whatever I can, in any way that I can, to assist in the success of NPAS as it faces a continued & troubled future.
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There was a PR campaign in Scotland some years ago, the press were told that the Strathclyde helicopter would be patrolling roads in Northern and Central areas (I think). TV news had pictures of the helicopter somewhere in the Highlands but I don't know anyone who ever saw it.
I think some warning signs appeared but can't remember where, possibly on the A85 where there is a problem with motorcycles having fatal RTAs, usually with no other vehicle involved.
I think some warning signs appeared but can't remember where, possibly on the A85 where there is a problem with motorcycles having fatal RTAs, usually with no other vehicle involved.
Back in July of last year, Coconutty said:
Having now retired, I offer these figures, obtained by Freedom Of Information(FOI) requests.
Some things that stand out from the pre NWAOG/NPAS budgets are GMP’s relatively low costs and North Wales’ extraordinarily high budget, especially compared to Lancs who had the same number of budgeted hours. I wonder what’s changed so remarkably that they’ve managed to save £600000 with NPAS? Still, I expect the North Wales Council Tax payers are happy with the savings.
Total savings for the North West are £M1.22, some 0.08% of the total 2012/2013 North West Police budget. You could add another £730000 saving a year for Merseyside if the lease of their old aircraft is taken into account.
In the period 2010-2011, Merseyside and Lancs overflew their budgeted hours with the others just under theirs.
In the first 6-9months of the NWAOG, there was a sharp drop in hours flown/incidents attended across the board of about 30%. This was, sort of, understandable for Merseyside, having lost their aircraft, but seemed strange for the others where nothing much had changed apart from how aircraft were tasked. Anecdotal evidence suggested that Merseyside bobbies were deciding that it wasn’t worth asking for an aircraft, as it was taking too long to get a response. Perhaps that was the same for the other forces.
When Merseyside was asked if they were aware of this, and were they happy, they replied that they were as the aircraft wasn’t going to tasks that weren’t worthwhile. Well, if the various FIMs, CIMs, duty Supt/Insp/Sgts etc had taken our advice in the past, then we wouldn’t have gone to tasks that weren’t worthwhile! Of course, NPAS has stopped all that, haven't they?
As you can see, in 2012-2013 only GMP and Cheshire reached and in fact passed their budgeted hours. GMP probably because of Op Chess, and Cheshire probably because they now have access to Air Support for 24 hours a day. The others are continuing the trend that started with the NWAOG when hours flown in support of and incidents attended were down by around 30%. However, for the year 2013-2014, upto October 2013, all were on track to achieve the hours. Remember that’s hours flown in support of each force, not the hours flown by each aircraft.
So, as they say; they are lies, damned lies and statistics, and people will make what they will from statistics. You can make from them what you will.
Regards,
MG(Retired)
It think it will be VERY interesting to find out, once everyone has joined NPAS,
by way of Freedom of Interest Requests, just how much each force is paying for NPAS,
and for how many hours cover, and compare this with what was being paid and the hours flown pre-NPAS
by way of Freedom of Interest Requests, just how much each force is paying for NPAS,
and for how many hours cover, and compare this with what was being paid and the hours flown pre-NPAS
Some things that stand out from the pre NWAOG/NPAS budgets are GMP’s relatively low costs and North Wales’ extraordinarily high budget, especially compared to Lancs who had the same number of budgeted hours. I wonder what’s changed so remarkably that they’ve managed to save £600000 with NPAS? Still, I expect the North Wales Council Tax payers are happy with the savings.
Total savings for the North West are £M1.22, some 0.08% of the total 2012/2013 North West Police budget. You could add another £730000 saving a year for Merseyside if the lease of their old aircraft is taken into account.
In the period 2010-2011, Merseyside and Lancs overflew their budgeted hours with the others just under theirs.
In the first 6-9months of the NWAOG, there was a sharp drop in hours flown/incidents attended across the board of about 30%. This was, sort of, understandable for Merseyside, having lost their aircraft, but seemed strange for the others where nothing much had changed apart from how aircraft were tasked. Anecdotal evidence suggested that Merseyside bobbies were deciding that it wasn’t worth asking for an aircraft, as it was taking too long to get a response. Perhaps that was the same for the other forces.
When Merseyside was asked if they were aware of this, and were they happy, they replied that they were as the aircraft wasn’t going to tasks that weren’t worthwhile. Well, if the various FIMs, CIMs, duty Supt/Insp/Sgts etc had taken our advice in the past, then we wouldn’t have gone to tasks that weren’t worthwhile! Of course, NPAS has stopped all that, haven't they?
As you can see, in 2012-2013 only GMP and Cheshire reached and in fact passed their budgeted hours. GMP probably because of Op Chess, and Cheshire probably because they now have access to Air Support for 24 hours a day. The others are continuing the trend that started with the NWAOG when hours flown in support of and incidents attended were down by around 30%. However, for the year 2013-2014, upto October 2013, all were on track to achieve the hours. Remember that’s hours flown in support of each force, not the hours flown by each aircraft.
So, as they say; they are lies, damned lies and statistics, and people will make what they will from statistics. You can make from them what you will.
Regards,
MG(Retired)
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Thought I'd just pop back in ..... thanks for those figures Mighty Gem 
Am I correct in thinking that the various forces involved now pay NPAS
for the number of hours "budgeted" for, but they don't get any refund if those hours are not flown ?
If so then the figures are very revealing indeed ! ( Wonlt bire you with the Maths ).
I await similar reports from other "regions" ( especially one a bit closer to home ),
where I've heard that a LOT more is now being spent under NPAS
for the same number of "budgeted" hours, to see just how many hours are actually received !
Predicition : Next year each force will want to cut their budgets.
Am I correct in thinking that the various forces involved now pay NPAS
for the number of hours "budgeted" for, but they don't get any refund if those hours are not flown ?
If so then the figures are very revealing indeed ! ( Wonlt bire you with the Maths ).
I await similar reports from other "regions" ( especially one a bit closer to home ),
where I've heard that a LOT more is now being spent under NPAS
for the same number of "budgeted" hours, to see just how many hours are actually received !
Predicition : Next year each force will want to cut their budgets.
When was this?
Am I correct in thinking that the various forces involved now pay NPAS
for the number of hours "budgeted" for, but they don't get any refund if those hours are not flown ?
for the number of hours "budgeted" for, but they don't get any refund if those hours are not flown ?
If, when still over Southport, they are given a task for Cheshire in, say Chester, then Cheshire Police start paying the moment the aircraft completes the Merseyside task and leaves Southport on the way to Chester. So Cheshire are paying for an extra 15/20 minutes flying time, even though Chester's less than 5 minutes from Hawarden, and Merseyside don't have to pay for the trip back to Hawarden. We were on task over Accrington, north of Manchester, and then were tasked to Chester, so Cheshire picked up a bill for the return transit.
Ref the stats: I thought Merseyside didnt have an air support after NPAS started????
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Since Herts and Beds are reported to have signed up to NPAS on the understanding that support would be supplied by the Met and given that the Met have decided not to be part of NPAS, it would appear that Herts and Beds are at liberty to reinstate their old police helicopter service due to contract conditions not being met.
It will never happen though because the wording of such agreements is full of woolley terms and conditions that will obligate Herts and Beds to pay a contribution to NPAS whether or not they run an independent service of their own. So it can never represent good value for money.
Whenever politicians get involved you always end up with half the service for double the money.
It will never happen though because the wording of such agreements is full of woolley terms and conditions that will obligate Herts and Beds to pay a contribution to NPAS whether or not they run an independent service of their own. So it can never represent good value for money.
Whenever politicians get involved you always end up with half the service for double the money.
November is a long time ago in news terms.
Since then I have spoken to 'The Met' and confirmed that joining NPAS is merely delayed. At that time [last month] the delay was to October but the engineering is more of a sticking point in that six months ago the Met engineering was doomed to go in March. That will not happen in March or October so may prove the biggest headache for NPAS overall.
Of course another week or so has passed so even October may have its doubters by now!
Meanwhile the Met are dealing with some calls to Hertfordshire [spitting distance from Lippitts] and available on the 24 hour call out option, which no doubt keeps their immediate neighbours happy as a pair of turbines always sounds better at 3am when repeated more regularly.
The aspect I do not yet grasp is...... if London policing consumes 3,300 hours per year from 3 aircraft that should in fact be more in number where on earth is the spare capacity to serve Herts and Beds supposed to come from?
Putting in 135s in place of the 145s might improve availability of the three airframes [because they are far more efficient and modern] but at hundreds of hours the nominal air support requirement of the former Chiltern north way outstrips the claim that the 'Met will cover'
Since then I have spoken to 'The Met' and confirmed that joining NPAS is merely delayed. At that time [last month] the delay was to October but the engineering is more of a sticking point in that six months ago the Met engineering was doomed to go in March. That will not happen in March or October so may prove the biggest headache for NPAS overall.
Of course another week or so has passed so even October may have its doubters by now!
Meanwhile the Met are dealing with some calls to Hertfordshire [spitting distance from Lippitts] and available on the 24 hour call out option, which no doubt keeps their immediate neighbours happy as a pair of turbines always sounds better at 3am when repeated more regularly.
The aspect I do not yet grasp is...... if London policing consumes 3,300 hours per year from 3 aircraft that should in fact be more in number where on earth is the spare capacity to serve Herts and Beds supposed to come from?
Putting in 135s in place of the 145s might improve availability of the three airframes [because they are far more efficient and modern] but at hundreds of hours the nominal air support requirement of the former Chiltern north way outstrips the claim that the 'Met will cover'
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PANews you nailed it the MET are flat out with Police work in London to the degree they have to decline a fair percentage of it. How can you then add more work outside of London.....
Also the MET don't do Casevac.
Also the MET don't do Casevac.
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Eye in sky artwork lands prize for Robert « Express & Star
Spot the mistake 
Eye in sky artwork lands prize for Robert
It is the eye in the Midlands sky which usually helps to catch criminals and give an overview of major incidents.
But now the stunning views photographed aboard the West Midlands Police helicopter have helped inspire one artist to land a prestigious prize.
It is the eye in the Midlands sky which usually helps to catch criminals and give an overview of major incidents.
But now the stunning views photographed aboard the West Midlands Police helicopter have helped inspire one artist to land a prestigious prize.