UK NPAS discussion thread: Mk 4
Mark,
Plus point - every 3rd weekend off.
Minus point - always finishing on a late is tiring. I never feel fully rested by the time I come back to days again. We used to do 7/5/5/4 - transitioning to 6/4/7/4 meant we lost 44 hours rest in order to gain one 10 hour shift. The first days off are really "rest" days rather than "off".
We opted for it as the "least worst" rather than the best.
Plus point - every 3rd weekend off.
Minus point - always finishing on a late is tiring. I never feel fully rested by the time I come back to days again. We used to do 7/5/5/4 - transitioning to 6/4/7/4 meant we lost 44 hours rest in order to gain one 10 hour shift. The first days off are really "rest" days rather than "off".
We opted for it as the "least worst" rather than the best.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: UK
Age: 47
Posts: 1,595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
3/3/3 is crap though that doesn't mean 6/4/7/4 is any better!!
6=3days + 3nights / 4 days off / 7= 3days +4nights / 4 days off
Those 4 days off aren't real off days since you finish at 0300hrs in the morning of day 1 and then you start again at 0900hrs on day 5.....in this short space of time you are trying to readjust your circadian rhythm only to throw it out again shortly there after.
The CAA was asked about the fact how healthy it is to interfere with one's circadian rhythm every three days......the answer was there haven't been no issues so far therefore carry on.
The old roster was fab instead of changing ones circadian rhythm every three days almost one changed it every 2 weeks, more healthier I would have thought???
I know for one thing a 747 captain wouldn't be allowed to work the NPAS roster that's for sure.
6=3days + 3nights / 4 days off / 7= 3days +4nights / 4 days off
Those 4 days off aren't real off days since you finish at 0300hrs in the morning of day 1 and then you start again at 0900hrs on day 5.....in this short space of time you are trying to readjust your circadian rhythm only to throw it out again shortly there after.
The CAA was asked about the fact how healthy it is to interfere with one's circadian rhythm every three days......the answer was there haven't been no issues so far therefore carry on.
The old roster was fab instead of changing ones circadian rhythm every three days almost one changed it every 2 weeks, more healthier I would have thought???
I know for one thing a 747 captain wouldn't be allowed to work the NPAS roster that's for sure.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem, from a business point of view, is that 7/5/5/4 requires two dropped shifts, and both Lates, which is "expensive" both to roster & fund. It does, however, have the advantage of a 3 week turnround, so you know where you are (take a look at the TFO rosters if you want a complete circadian co*k-up as well as personal planning pandemonium).
Whilst 6/4/7/4 is legal (better if both last Lates finish @0300); & also has the advantage of a 3 week turnround; it is less comfortable for the regular pilots as it requires them to fill all the Late shifts. It does mean that the business only needs to fill one Day shift per week, which is far easier to manage - the most uncomfortable thing depends on which day the dropped shift falls.
Some units have operated a system not far removed from this for 5+ years without problems, and a "lighter" version for many years before that. This latest iteration is the ultimate version in squeezing as much as possible out of the taxpayer pound, (which is sort-of what NPAS have been charged with, after all) and individuals do need to manage themselves. For those units that normally finish @ 0400 (except for 0300 last Lates) it's more uncomfortable than regular 03 finishes, but there are 6hr flying Late shifts, and there are foggy ones! There's little in the current climate that is as comfortable as it was 10 years ago and, whilst it's not brilliant, I'm with Art - better the Devil you know than 3/3/3!
I feel one of my brackets could be expanded a lot further, but would probably fill another whole thread!
Whilst 6/4/7/4 is legal (better if both last Lates finish @0300); & also has the advantage of a 3 week turnround; it is less comfortable for the regular pilots as it requires them to fill all the Late shifts. It does mean that the business only needs to fill one Day shift per week, which is far easier to manage - the most uncomfortable thing depends on which day the dropped shift falls.
Some units have operated a system not far removed from this for 5+ years without problems, and a "lighter" version for many years before that. This latest iteration is the ultimate version in squeezing as much as possible out of the taxpayer pound, (which is sort-of what NPAS have been charged with, after all) and individuals do need to manage themselves. For those units that normally finish @ 0400 (except for 0300 last Lates) it's more uncomfortable than regular 03 finishes, but there are 6hr flying Late shifts, and there are foggy ones! There's little in the current climate that is as comfortable as it was 10 years ago and, whilst it's not brilliant, I'm with Art - better the Devil you know than 3/3/3!
I feel one of my brackets could be expanded a lot further, but would probably fill another whole thread!
zorab
Your brackets, if you meant (take a look at the TFO rosters if you want a complete circadian co*k-up as well as personal planning pandemonium), could indeed be expanded massively, it's one of the reasons that I'm no longer JAFO or even JAFTFO.
There was absolutely no work/life balance at all and made me very, very tired.
Your brackets, if you meant (take a look at the TFO rosters if you want a complete circadian co*k-up as well as personal planning pandemonium), could indeed be expanded massively, it's one of the reasons that I'm no longer JAFO or even JAFTFO.
There was absolutely no work/life balance at all and made me very, very tired.
Zorab,
I fully understand why NPAS went for the 6/4/7/4 and support everything you've posted above. It was important to us at the time that we kept the 3 week cycle but opted for 6/4/7/4 as the least worst on offer. Don't know yet if the latest "tweak" will change anything other than closing the changeover gap. I still find having my sleep pattern changed twice in 21 days, rather than once, and always finishing on a late to be very tiring and very poor for work life balance - no matter how "legal" it might be.
I fully understand why NPAS went for the 6/4/7/4 and support everything you've posted above. It was important to us at the time that we kept the 3 week cycle but opted for 6/4/7/4 as the least worst on offer. Don't know yet if the latest "tweak" will change anything other than closing the changeover gap. I still find having my sleep pattern changed twice in 21 days, rather than once, and always finishing on a late to be very tiring and very poor for work life balance - no matter how "legal" it might be.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: UK
Age: 47
Posts: 1,595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cheers Zorab for explaining to the uninitiated what the set up is.
I never agreed with the roster the bobbies had to put up with. It's inhuman!!!!
As for the NPAS pilots roster in my humble opinion it's an accident waiting to happen. Glad to see a lot of pilots getting out of NPAS, one of the main reasons being the fatiguing roster.
As for saving money you get two line pilots for one HQ body. They have loads of HQ bodies......
Oh and as for really saving money in Police aviation there are no brackets big enough....
Please fly safe everyone in NPASland.
I never agreed with the roster the bobbies had to put up with. It's inhuman!!!!
As for the NPAS pilots roster in my humble opinion it's an accident waiting to happen. Glad to see a lot of pilots getting out of NPAS, one of the main reasons being the fatiguing roster.
As for saving money you get two line pilots for one HQ body. They have loads of HQ bodies......
Oh and as for really saving money in Police aviation there are no brackets big enough....
Please fly safe everyone in NPASland.
And so it goes on. Aircraft in the North West offline over Easter to save on PH payments. Pilots taking leave with no relief pilots available.
And people ask if I miss going to work.
And people ask if I miss going to work.
Food for thought?
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: UK
Age: 47
Posts: 1,595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John that sounds like a grown up roster.
Anyone with common sense you talk to or any medical professional will tell you the NPAS roster is fatiguing and therefore not healthy.
But it saves money after all and the bean counters etc. are not flying the machine so it must be alright.
How much does an accident cost again?
Anyway what do we know we only fly the things.....
Anyone with common sense you talk to or any medical professional will tell you the NPAS roster is fatiguing and therefore not healthy.
But it saves money after all and the bean counters etc. are not flying the machine so it must be alright.
How much does an accident cost again?
Anyway what do we know we only fly the things.....
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like any other cause of accidents, fatigue of police pilots will only be addressed when an accident has actually been proven to be caused largely by fatigue.
I've always found the most difficult part is staying awake on the drive home. The CAA FTL regulations are aimed at being fit to start the duty period, not the safe arrival home of the pilot at 0500hrs
I've always found the most difficult part is staying awake on the drive home. The CAA FTL regulations are aimed at being fit to start the duty period, not the safe arrival home of the pilot at 0500hrs
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Here there and everywhere !
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like any other cause of accidents, fatigue of police pilots will only be addressed when an accident has actually been proven to be caused largely by fatigue.
However, if pilots are becoming fatigued as a result of flying a certain shift pattern,
or from the workload during a single shift - to the extent that there is the potential for an "incident" to occur,
then perhaps it's time for the CAA to re-examine ( re-address ) this, and adjust the FTL limits accordingly ?
Nail
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, addressing the issue with the FTL scheme and CRM training certainly seems adequate as no accidents have been proved to be caused by fatigue. So what's everyone moaning about? Lets leave it to the trusted system of waiting for an accident before looking hard at it.
Tightgit
On the one hand you can put in safety reports, flight safety reports or even chirps. On the other hand you can drip about it on pprune. I can't say that I would fancy the 7/4/6/4 but surely we're all professional enough to try and address it using the company system first........
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: no where
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The most cost effective FTL that gets every minute out of a pilot will always be the choice of the operator irrespective of fatigued and disgruntled pilots who will always come a poor second. Personally I don't see the 6/4/7/4 as being a particular poor FTL
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: 6 minutes ahead of the landing 747
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well the good news is we can now all rest with the knowledge:
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/404...elicopter.html
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/404...elicopter.html
NPAS Contracts
Been out of the country for a couple of weeks but was expecting to have heard some news re the first big contracts awarded by NPAS. I think the Mid Life upgrade for the earlier 135's and the maintenance contracts are due about now.
Anyone heard anything? Can't find it on here.
TF
Anyone heard anything? Can't find it on here.
TF