How NOT to become a Police pilot!
Police pilot prosecuted!
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Is this the one with a licence to kill but not much else?
Just a numbered other
I was Chief Pilot of the very same ASU, but before this event.
I'm told the guy was very convincing, and it would seem he's even managed to charm the judge.
Let's await more from those in the know. Frankly I'm astounded, but in this modern 'blame someone else' culture, it will probably be the Unit who get shafted for not checking his credentials at an earlier stage, and allowing the pillock to get away with it. What happened to personal responsibility.
Interestingly, and pertinent to the same ASU, the police observer who has been unable to work since the October 1998 fatal accident has still to receive any compensation for injuries which were definitely not caused by his own fault. This is in no way a cririsism of the unit, who have done their best in the face of an insurance company pulling out all the stops to shirk their responsibilities. More on Rotorheads.
I'm told the guy was very convincing, and it would seem he's even managed to charm the judge.
Let's await more from those in the know. Frankly I'm astounded, but in this modern 'blame someone else' culture, it will probably be the Unit who get shafted for not checking his credentials at an earlier stage, and allowing the pillock to get away with it. What happened to personal responsibility.
Interestingly, and pertinent to the same ASU, the police observer who has been unable to work since the October 1998 fatal accident has still to receive any compensation for injuries which were definitely not caused by his own fault. This is in no way a cririsism of the unit, who have done their best in the face of an insurance company pulling out all the stops to shirk their responsibilities. More on Rotorheads.
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Sounds like it was all over before it began. What a story! Did it appear anywhere in the press?
Anyone know how on earth the guy got off? What was the legal argument? It must have been very persuasive.
Anyone know how on earth the guy got off? What was the legal argument? It must have been very persuasive.
Just a numbered other
OK I do know a little more about this than I'm letting on, but need to tread carefully if I'm ever to be able to return to the unit for a cup of tea (or speed locally on my motorbike!).
Suffice to say that he got off on a technicality, and IMHO was very lucky to have the judge he had on the day. The charge was 'attempting to obtain pecuniary advantage by deception'. To have a case against him, it would need to be proven that he thought he would get the job and be paid.
His argument was that he was bound to be found out before payday, therefore no case. The judge agreed.
In order to give him enough rope to hang himself with, the ASU (who were by now suspicious, due to the complexity of elaborate excuses behind the lack of documents) would have had to let him start work, with all the obvious risks involved, safety, insurance etc.
They could not allow that, so no trial. The charge lies on the file, for a future case if necessary.
This means he has got away with the charge brought.
But, CAA, are you there? He has almost certainly committed offences which you could bring against him. You are keen enough to put hapless PPLs, who make mistakes, in court, so what about this Walter Mitty, who is now free to carry on with his deceptions.
That's the story as I understand it. Flying Lawyer, who was to defend this reptile may be able to add more, and/or correct my facts.
Suffice to say that he got off on a technicality, and IMHO was very lucky to have the judge he had on the day. The charge was 'attempting to obtain pecuniary advantage by deception'. To have a case against him, it would need to be proven that he thought he would get the job and be paid.
His argument was that he was bound to be found out before payday, therefore no case. The judge agreed.
In order to give him enough rope to hang himself with, the ASU (who were by now suspicious, due to the complexity of elaborate excuses behind the lack of documents) would have had to let him start work, with all the obvious risks involved, safety, insurance etc.
They could not allow that, so no trial. The charge lies on the file, for a future case if necessary.
This means he has got away with the charge brought.
But, CAA, are you there? He has almost certainly committed offences which you could bring against him. You are keen enough to put hapless PPLs, who make mistakes, in court, so what about this Walter Mitty, who is now free to carry on with his deceptions.
That's the story as I understand it. Flying Lawyer, who was to defend this reptile may be able to add more, and/or correct my facts.
Oops!
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He sounds like a very lucky man to me!
One thing that puzzles me - and I know nothing about Police ASU's or Helicopters - but surely, 5 hours line training in a 135 must be construed as gaining a pecuniary advantage?
The sad thing is that as Arkroyal so rightly said; that in the current society, someone is going to get the blame for this one and it sure as hell won't be the guy in the wrong!
One thing that puzzles me - and I know nothing about Police ASU's or Helicopters - but surely, 5 hours line training in a 135 must be construed as gaining a pecuniary advantage?
The sad thing is that as Arkroyal so rightly said; that in the current society, someone is going to get the blame for this one and it sure as hell won't be the guy in the wrong!
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Newspaper report today
Remember the usual warnings about media reporting of aviation matters.
POLICE LET AMATEUR FLY THE FORCE HELICOPTER
A businessman with a fascination for police aviation managed to convince officers to let him fly the force helicopter.
Amateur pilot Mark Lamb, 30, impressed police airmen with boasts that he was a highly skilled commercial pilot, qualified to fly helicopters.
He was allowed to undertake training missions and was informally offered freelance flying work with the East Midlands Air Support Unit.
In reality, he had three years air experience and a private pilot's licence, Leicester Crown Court was told.
Although criminal proceedings were dropped, he may now be facing an investigation by the Civil Aviation Authority.
The court heard that Lamb, who flew on five force training missions over Leicester, managed to pass a stringent test with ease. There was no suggestion he had flown dangerously.
Lamb's barrister said his client had only wanted to experience training in a force helicopter. When he was unexpectedly offered freelance work on an informal basis, Lamb feigned illness, claiming he had cancer, to avoid taking up the opportunity and to conceal his lack of qualifications.
Barrister Tudor Owen defending, said Lamb could not actually have been accepted to work with the police ASU without evidence of advanced qualifications.
Lamb's private pilot's licence covered him to fly that class of machine solo, but the police would have required a more advanced standard.
Lamb, of North Kilworth, Leicestershire, denied attempting to obtain a pecuniary advantage by falsely representing he had an Air Transport Pilot's Licence between July and September last year.
The prosecution chose not to proceed with the charge after the judge agreed with defence counsel that Lamb's actions did not constitute a criminal offence.
Five similar offences were quashed, but Lamb agreed to pay £1,750 to cover the cost of his flights with the ASU.
Recorder Calder Jose said Lamb had been living in "a Walter Mitty world" and made up a complete fiction about himself. But that did not mean he had broken the law.
He added: "It's clear that never at any time did this man fly dangerously or even fly without the provision of his own licence. He obtained the fun of flying in a police helicopter over the sky of Leicester on five occasions. I imagine quite a lot of people would pay a lot of money for that kind of experience."
After the hearing, Lamb, who runs an information technology business, said his fascination for police aviation had got the better of him and he regretted his actions.
A businessman with a fascination for police aviation managed to convince officers to let him fly the force helicopter.
Amateur pilot Mark Lamb, 30, impressed police airmen with boasts that he was a highly skilled commercial pilot, qualified to fly helicopters.
He was allowed to undertake training missions and was informally offered freelance flying work with the East Midlands Air Support Unit.
In reality, he had three years air experience and a private pilot's licence, Leicester Crown Court was told.
Although criminal proceedings were dropped, he may now be facing an investigation by the Civil Aviation Authority.
The court heard that Lamb, who flew on five force training missions over Leicester, managed to pass a stringent test with ease. There was no suggestion he had flown dangerously.
Lamb's barrister said his client had only wanted to experience training in a force helicopter. When he was unexpectedly offered freelance work on an informal basis, Lamb feigned illness, claiming he had cancer, to avoid taking up the opportunity and to conceal his lack of qualifications.
Barrister Tudor Owen defending, said Lamb could not actually have been accepted to work with the police ASU without evidence of advanced qualifications.
Lamb's private pilot's licence covered him to fly that class of machine solo, but the police would have required a more advanced standard.
Lamb, of North Kilworth, Leicestershire, denied attempting to obtain a pecuniary advantage by falsely representing he had an Air Transport Pilot's Licence between July and September last year.
The prosecution chose not to proceed with the charge after the judge agreed with defence counsel that Lamb's actions did not constitute a criminal offence.
Five similar offences were quashed, but Lamb agreed to pay £1,750 to cover the cost of his flights with the ASU.
Recorder Calder Jose said Lamb had been living in "a Walter Mitty world" and made up a complete fiction about himself. But that did not mean he had broken the law.
He added: "It's clear that never at any time did this man fly dangerously or even fly without the provision of his own licence. He obtained the fun of flying in a police helicopter over the sky of Leicester on five occasions. I imagine quite a lot of people would pay a lot of money for that kind of experience."
After the hearing, Lamb, who runs an information technology business, said his fascination for police aviation had got the better of him and he regretted his actions.
Last edited by Alty Meter; 1st May 2002 at 14:48.
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Don't British law enforcement agencies do extensive "background checks" on their civilian pilots? In the U.S., this prospective applicant would be intestigated extensively, similar to a MOD security clearance vetting.
Typically in California, approximately 40 man-hours would be spent on the investigation. This would include criminal records checks (through fingerprints), FAA records check, confirming education, training, credit check, talking in person to former employers, teachers, and references, PLUS additional references developed independently during the investigation.
Talking about "egg on their face" if the above accounts are accurate!
Very sad indeed.
:o :o :o
Typically in California, approximately 40 man-hours would be spent on the investigation. This would include criminal records checks (through fingerprints), FAA records check, confirming education, training, credit check, talking in person to former employers, teachers, and references, PLUS additional references developed independently during the investigation.
Talking about "egg on their face" if the above accounts are accurate!
Very sad indeed.
:o :o :o
Just a numbered other
Check 6
Ah... but the above account is not accurate, as neither was the piece shown last night on local TV which showed Lamb as the wronged party, almost forced against his will to fly the helo.
By my understanding, he feigned cancer to avoid having to produce his licence to the unit chief pilot, and to cover his deception. The deception included that he had been an airline pilot, that he owned his own EC120. This guy was interviewed for a full time job with the unit, and at no time volunteered the information that he was not qualified for it until cornered like a rat.
Ah... but the above account is not accurate, as neither was the piece shown last night on local TV which showed Lamb as the wronged party, almost forced against his will to fly the helo.
By my understanding, he feigned cancer to avoid having to produce his licence to the unit chief pilot, and to cover his deception. The deception included that he had been an airline pilot, that he owned his own EC120. This guy was interviewed for a full time job with the unit, and at no time volunteered the information that he was not qualified for it until cornered like a rat.
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If he was interviewed for a job I would have thought that his licence would have been checked at the same time!If it was not checked that is still of course no excuse for his deception and inexcusable conduct.
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Crab, agree with you. You would have thought that a professional unit like this could never let it happen.
I know that doesn't excuse the guy, but it could be that he got himself in too deep and couldn't get out. The cancer thing us unfortunate (if it's true) but the Chief Pilot should never have been so easily misled.
I know that doesn't excuse the guy, but it could be that he got himself in too deep and couldn't get out. The cancer thing us unfortunate (if it's true) but the Chief Pilot should never have been so easily misled.
Just a numbered other
crab
Agreed, but this guy was a conman, remember. He (according to a source) produced photocopies at the time because he'd left the originals in his helicopter, which his mate had taken to France........etc. etc.
He was bound to be discovered, which is why the judge dropped the case.
I'm glad I'd left by then, as I can't be sure I wouldn't have been taken in. Conmen are very convincing.
I just hope the CAA do him for exceeding the privileges of his licence, or worse. Give FL another nice little earner
Agreed, but this guy was a conman, remember. He (according to a source) produced photocopies at the time because he'd left the originals in his helicopter, which his mate had taken to France........etc. etc.
He was bound to be discovered, which is why the judge dropped the case.
I'm glad I'd left by then, as I can't be sure I wouldn't have been taken in. Conmen are very convincing.
I just hope the CAA do him for exceeding the privileges of his licence, or worse. Give FL another nice little earner
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Mmm, not sure sure about the photocopy thing cos surely you would ask to keep them or at least take copies for your records, after all, it's your but on the line too! Plus, surely the Unit manager must have been involved and would have needed to give approval. If they'd not let him do anything until they'd seen his licence the whole sorry mess would never have happened. Is it not an AOC undertaking to keep a copy of line pilots records.
Last edited by pressurize; 1st May 2002 at 17:16.
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Mark Lamb is obviously a good conman, and deceived people being kind to him which in my book makes him an even bigger ****. But I can't see how could he produce photocopies of an ATPL(H) he hasn't got? Does a PPL(H) look anything the same?
Maybe it was a typo, how could the judge 'drop' the case?
I don't think a judge can do that. (Any legal eagles correct me if I'm wrong.) It must have been the CPS who dropped it at the last minute. They'd only do that if they were outmanoevred insome way. It seems to be coming out bit by bit so we'll probably get to the bottom of this fiasco eventually.
Also, I was told this afternoon the PPL actually flew live sorties as well as training flights. Don't know if it's true, but I was assured it was.
And he made up the 'cancer' story to get out of it without losing face when they offered him a permanent job and wanted to see his ATPL.
I'd like to know how this sh1t off.
Maybe it was a typo, how could the judge 'drop' the case?
I don't think a judge can do that. (Any legal eagles correct me if I'm wrong.) It must have been the CPS who dropped it at the last minute. They'd only do that if they were outmanoevred insome way. It seems to be coming out bit by bit so we'll probably get to the bottom of this fiasco eventually.
Also, I was told this afternoon the PPL actually flew live sorties as well as training flights. Don't know if it's true, but I was assured it was.
And he made up the 'cancer' story to get out of it without losing face when they offered him a permanent job and wanted to see his ATPL.
I'd like to know how this sh1t off.
Last edited by Alty Meter; 1st May 2002 at 17:03.
Just a numbered other
Alty
The licence pages would be very similar, and easily doctored such that a photocopy would look pukka.
My understanding is that the judge said that he reckoned there was no case, but that the CPS could still bring it. Hardly the best start to a case they were then sure to lose.
Hopefully the CAA can take over where the old bill left off.
Nopax! Excellent, nearly missed that, and oddly enough something similar may have been muttered by the losing side
Now, since Mr Lamb lives about 100 yards away, I'll pop round and try to get a job in IT
The licence pages would be very similar, and easily doctored such that a photocopy would look pukka.
My understanding is that the judge said that he reckoned there was no case, but that the CPS could still bring it. Hardly the best start to a case they were then sure to lose.
Hopefully the CAA can take over where the old bill left off.
Nopax! Excellent, nearly missed that, and oddly enough something similar may have been muttered by the losing side
Now, since Mr Lamb lives about 100 yards away, I'll pop round and try to get a job in IT
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If other people have got what I've got from the CAA then yes, it's easily forged.
Perhaps if I get bored at work one day, I'll rustle up a comedy version with every single rating as a little joke for my flying buddies.
Perhaps if I get bored at work one day, I'll rustle up a comedy version with every single rating as a little joke for my flying buddies.