Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

UK Air Ambulances having it off???

Wikiposts
Search
Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

UK Air Ambulances having it off???

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 27th Mar 2024, 14:23
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2023
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 29
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
My local Air Ambulance is unfortunately the one shown as demonstrably inefficient. To anyone ITK why would over two-thirds of total expenditure be on raising funds? To add, this particular Air Ambulance has two heli's and two bases that are very well established and have been operating for years.
AeroAmigo is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2024, 15:21
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: South West
Posts: 296
Received 21 Likes on 17 Posts
Originally Posted by AeroAmigo
My local Air Ambulance is unfortunately the one shown as demonstrably inefficient. To anyone ITK why would over two-thirds of total expenditure be on raising funds? To add, this particular Air Ambulance has two heli's and two bases that are very well established and have been operating for years.
Ask them. Say you would like to donate but want to know more about how your money is spent.
gipsymagpie is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 28th Mar 2024, 08:00
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: The 4th dimentia.....
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 6 Posts
Those numbers tell a tale. Although the number of employees earning within certain pay brackets or bands also tells a tale.

A charity previously earning more than the vast sum they are attempting to raise now, including by direct approach to government for tax payer funding, spending more than 50% on fundraising with so many employees and several in the 6 figure bands is ludicrous. One wonders if the charity commission look at those elements in detail.

https://register-of-charities.charit...details/801013
Northernstar is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2024, 10:03
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,948
Likes: 0
Received 44 Likes on 26 Posts
well just look at a certain ex political leader who earns north of £ 600k !!!!!!! working for a charity, where is people's moral compass ?
Hughes500 is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2024, 12:11
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: SW England
Age: 69
Posts: 1,497
Received 89 Likes on 35 Posts
I have always been aware of the 'interesting' approach by "The Air Ambulance Service" [sic] to fund-raising, expenditure and emoluments, but I was taken aback by the number of high-paid "helpers" in Northernstar's link. Educational. On another subject: do TAAS still call every flight - including positioning, air-tests and the like - a "mission" for their annual stats?

It might be helpful to the public if charities could be obliged to print those pie-graphs nice and clearly next to their collection boxes and tins, in the hope that people might be a little more enquiring over where their hard-earned donations are actually going. Defo time to do some moral-compass-swings, methinks.
Thud_and_Blunder is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2024, 05:40
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: nowhere special
Posts: 470
Received 9 Likes on 5 Posts
Caution, alternative take on the charity sector.

I have no affinity or allegiance for or to any EMS operators, for profit or non profit, in the UK but I think there are several other ways of looking at these statistics and it's important to know exactly what is loaded into the 'admin' and what is loaded into the 'charitable activities' parts of these pie charts.

Some of these charities will load all their 'costs' into the admin, potentially including pilot and AME salaries, doctors. The 'money spent on charitable activities' could be direct flight costs only including fuel, landing fees, pbh etc. I'm not excusing anyone but I think it's important to have the full picture and realistic expectations as I doubt very much if the pie charts are as simple as 'office based' vs 'aircrew/ engineers'. I also doubt these stats are reported the same way by each charity.

Where I do take some issue with the comments made above is the rather odd insistence that somehow the 'support staff' should somehow work for free or minimal compensation because it's a charity. I would be curious to know how various posters expect these people to feed themselves and pay rent/ mortgages? IUsing the 'it's a charity' logic, should the flying staff also work for free? While I understand that the donating public should know how much of their donated money gets spent directly, around 50% is fairly good by charity standards. Feel free to look up the UN and large charities like Children in Need as a comparison. Fundamentally, if you want credible, qualified, full time and competent staff, you have to pay for that. What's the alternative? Pilot's doing the CEO job part time and engineers shaking buckets at the station on down time?

Using the London AA as the provided example, it's a 16m GBP revenue business and the top earners (likely medical director and CEO) are making 140k tops. That's a North Sea S-92 captain's salary. Running an organisation with 205 staff (including more than half who do work for free) is a very responsible job. I think 140k is actually quite low personally for that level of responsibility. I guarantee the Medical Director can earn significantly more in private practice or the NHS.

Read the financials at the end. Great insight: https://register-of-charities.charit...nNumber=801013


My 5c worth anyway.

Last edited by nowherespecial; 29th Mar 2024 at 05:51. Reason: Add link for London AA Financial Report.
nowherespecial is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 29th Mar 2024, 08:09
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 462
Likes: 0
Received 104 Likes on 72 Posts
Let's not forget that some AA's in the UK make their pilots pay (or the pilots offer free working days) in exchange for LPC/OPCs, some (eg London) expect pilots to self-fund type ratings for just a summer of work.






Last edited by hargreaves99; 29th Mar 2024 at 09:21.
hargreaves99 is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2024, 11:19
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: South West
Posts: 296
Received 21 Likes on 17 Posts
Originally Posted by nowherespecial
Caution, alternative take on the charity sector.

I have no affinity or allegiance for or to any EMS operators, for profit or non profit, in the UK but I think there are several other ways of looking at these statistics and it's important to know exactly what is loaded into the 'admin' and what is loaded into the 'charitable activities' parts of these pie charts.

Some of these charities will load all their 'costs' into the admin, potentially including pilot and AME salaries, doctors. The 'money spent on charitable activities' could be direct flight costs only including fuel, landing fees, pbh etc. I'm not excusing anyone but I think it's important to have the full picture and realistic expectations as I doubt very much if the pie charts are as simple as 'office based' vs 'aircrew/ engineers'. I also doubt these stats are reported the same way by each charity.

Where I do take some issue with the comments made above is the rather odd insistence that somehow the 'support staff' should somehow work for free or minimal compensation because it's a charity. I would be curious to know how various posters expect these people to feed themselves and pay rent/ mortgages? IUsing the 'it's a charity' logic, should the flying staff also work for free? While I understand that the donating public should know how much of their donated money gets spent directly, around 50% is fairly good by charity standards. Feel free to look up the UN and large charities like Children in Need as a comparison. Fundamentally, if you want credible, qualified, full time and competent staff, you have to pay for that. What's the alternative? Pilot's doing the CEO job part time and engineers shaking buckets at the station on down time?

Using the London AA as the provided example, it's a 16m GBP revenue business and the top earners (likely medical director and CEO) are making 140k tops. That's a North Sea S-92 captain's salary. Running an organisation with 205 staff (including more than half who do work for free) is a very responsible job. I think 140k is actually quite low personally for that level of responsibility. I guarantee the Medical Director can earn significantly more in private practice or the NHS.



My 5c worth anyway.
I agree that it may not be apples for apples in those statistics but the difference in the two charts above is stark. I am fairly sure pilot and engineering costs cannot be included in the "generating income" costs even if part of a contract with an aviation provider and why would the charity do so anyway as it's to their disadvantage.

The cost to deliver one aircraft in those two organisations is roughly the same - £4 million per airframe.

I absolutely support the work of the delivery side of the Air Ambulance sector, but some of the shenanigans mentioned above about pilots paying for their own training and the appalling ineffectiveness of that one particular organsiation should be highlighted to the people making donations. It is a gross outlier across the sector (go ahead, check my working) and has been doing as badly for years (it only put 19% of it's expenditure into charitable activities one year).

​​
gipsymagpie is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 29th Mar 2024, 14:34
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 10,329
Received 622 Likes on 270 Posts
If they are paying the people who take no physical risks in their working day £140K, why aren't they paying the people in the aircraft who are exposed to constant risk more money?
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2024, 14:43
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 462
Likes: 0
Received 104 Likes on 72 Posts
Because it's all a massive gravy train for the people at the top, while the public get fleeced because they think a big shiny sexy thing is going to swoop down and save them, when in reality they are 100 times more likely to die from a stroke, heart attack or dementia than any lack of an Air Ambulance.
hargreaves99 is offline  
The following 3 users liked this post by hargreaves99:
Old 29th Mar 2024, 15:31
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: SW England
Age: 69
Posts: 1,497
Received 89 Likes on 35 Posts
I took Northernstar's link idea one stage further and had a quick look at another non-blue-light UK emergency service charity: the RNLI (Link here)

They managed to spend over 75% of their total for last year (£177.2m of £233m) on charitable expenditure, with just under 24% going toward fund-raising expenses. They had one person being paid £140k-150k and 2 earning £150k-200k. I know there is a huge element of apples vs pears here (lower crew costs for starters; I shouldn't think the RNLI has any need for a medical director, and aircraft maint is possibly in a different order of magnitude compared to boats), but I think the RNLI model is one the many disparate Air Ambos could learn from. Just keep Gov't money out of it - we would never want to see another farce like the National Police Air "Service" debacle, would we?

Am now going to have a ferret around a charity using the name (County Air Ambulance) previously carried by the Midlands Air Ambulance, to see what they actually do with their income. Fascinating stuff - thanks again, Northernstar
Thud_and_Blunder is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2024, 18:40
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,948
Likes: 0
Received 44 Likes on 26 Posts
£ 140 k for a N Sea Captain , really ?
Hughes500 is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2024, 18:43
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 462
Likes: 0
Received 104 Likes on 72 Posts
north sea co-pilot 60-90k
captain 90-120k
captain with overtime/TRE/TRI/line trainer/overtime - 120k+




Last edited by hargreaves99; 29th Mar 2024 at 19:09.
hargreaves99 is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2024, 18:54
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: England
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes on 6 Posts
Originally Posted by hargreaves99
north sea co-pilot 60-70k
captain 90-120k
captain with overtime/TRE/TRI/line trainer/overtime - 120k+
North Sea co-pilots will go up towards bottom end of Captain salary.
jeepys is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2024, 19:14
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 10,329
Received 622 Likes on 270 Posts
Originally Posted by jeepys
North Sea co-pilots will go up towards bottom end of Captain salary.
Bloody demanding that straight line A to B flying......
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2024, 19:15
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 462
Likes: 0
Received 104 Likes on 72 Posts
The demanding bit is having to live in Aberdeen, or commute to and fro, and put up with the deadly boring flying and adherence to a myriad of procedures.
hargreaves99 is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2024, 20:43
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: South of UK
Posts: 520
Received 19 Likes on 15 Posts
Originally Posted by hargreaves99
Because it's all a massive gravy train for the people at the top, while the public get fleeced because they think a big shiny sexy thing is going to swoop down and save them, when in reality they are 100 times more likely to die from a stroke, heart attack or dementia than any lack of an Air Ambulance.
Well that's quite a series of assumptions. And insulting to those people who - unpaid- represent the 'checks and balances' of the charities. I have no current skin in the game but spent 13 years as a trustee of an Air ambulance charity and can tell you that your assertion is wide of the mark.

Most of the income for the charity I was involved in came from their lottery. Most people's perspective was that £1 a week was a small sum to pay for supporting a service that anyone could need at any time. The secret is to get enough people to sign up, of course.
206 jock is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 30th Mar 2024, 11:17
  #78 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 1,120
Received 9 Likes on 8 Posts
What does Midland Air Ambulance Trading limited do?
Pittsextra is online now  
Old 3rd Apr 2024, 20:15
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
To add some perspective, the Trustees are all well meaning, unpaid volunteers, trying to support the charities, however they are hampered by what they are told, or not told, of the day to day workings. The information they are fed comes from the CEO with no analysis from the Trustees, except occasional meetings with a diluted snap shot of the state of things in general terms.

The Trustess are completely reliant on information for their deliberations and decisions from the CEO, so the conflict of interest will always exist as Trustess are asked to make decisions given part facts depending on how they need to be guided to get to the right decision

Originally Posted by Pittsextra
Jock - the question was:-

"on what metric these trustees measure value? "

I don't think that was vague or shrouded in anything!

What seems slightly odd on first look is that you have an association and yet there are obviously big gaps between the organisations, yet this isn't a new field of operation.
MINself is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2024, 21:20
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: The 4th dimentia.....
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 6 Posts
At least one southern charity allowed a trustee get a job with the service provider. Not sure being a trustee is so far removed all the time. That's just one easy example to search for online.
Northernstar is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.