Our Gyrodyne Future?
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Our Gyrodyne Future?
http://www.iasa-intl.com/folders/bel...e_Gyrodyne.pdf
www.gbagyros.com
The supporters of this concept see a gyrodyne as being a solution to all sorts of looming air traffic, hub and airfield problems.
The only downside that I can see in the gyrodyne concept thus far is the sensitivity to vibration induced by rotor flexibility, tracking and wing and fuselage interaction - not to mention differing flexures in thermal and other types of turbulence (orographic, wake, clear air turb (CAT) in the jetstream etc). Fatigue accrual rates would be high.
I'm finding it hard to conceive of a rotor that large, albeit tip-jet powered, hacking the mission without tracking refinements via a myriad of minute adjustments per revolution (courtesy of a very high speed computer).
My gut feeling is that it won't ever be built because the prototype will discover something akin to ASYMMVR lurking in the wings (a dangerous place as any thespian will tell you).
Directional stability throughout the speed range? Flight control harmonization? Operational envelope? All quite in the realm of: "Well that's for now "another story"".
What advantages does it have over tilt-rotor or tilt-wing? Does anybody have any grip on the theory or concept of gyrodyne operation?
Will it succeed or won't it?
And if not, why not?
www.gbagyros.com
The supporters of this concept see a gyrodyne as being a solution to all sorts of looming air traffic, hub and airfield problems.
The only downside that I can see in the gyrodyne concept thus far is the sensitivity to vibration induced by rotor flexibility, tracking and wing and fuselage interaction - not to mention differing flexures in thermal and other types of turbulence (orographic, wake, clear air turb (CAT) in the jetstream etc). Fatigue accrual rates would be high.
I'm finding it hard to conceive of a rotor that large, albeit tip-jet powered, hacking the mission without tracking refinements via a myriad of minute adjustments per revolution (courtesy of a very high speed computer).
My gut feeling is that it won't ever be built because the prototype will discover something akin to ASYMMVR lurking in the wings (a dangerous place as any thespian will tell you).
Directional stability throughout the speed range? Flight control harmonization? Operational envelope? All quite in the realm of: "Well that's for now "another story"".
What advantages does it have over tilt-rotor or tilt-wing? Does anybody have any grip on the theory or concept of gyrodyne operation?
Will it succeed or won't it?
And if not, why not?
Jeeez....
I have seen it ... it flew over here 40 years ago....
The long departed Fairey Rotodyne to a T.
Not much left of course [I guess it must have landed at Fort Rucker!]
I have seen it ... it flew over here 40 years ago....
The long departed Fairey Rotodyne to a T.
Not much left of course [I guess it must have landed at Fort Rucker!]
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Last remaining parts I believe are at The Helicopter Museum at Weston super Mare.
As you can see, the odd part here and there and when I was last there ages ago, I think they had a blade.
Unfortunately AFAIR everything was destroyed when the project was cancelled.
The British are good at that!
SS
edited to add;
click on pic
Fairey Rotodyne, XE521, C/n. F.9429.
The Fairey Rotodyne was the culmination of more than 15 years research into compound or convertible helicopters made by the Fairey Aviation Company. Early trials were carried out between 1947 and 1956 and XE521 was built in 1957 at Hayes, Middlesex as a prototype large compound helicopter, powered by two Napier Eland turboshaft engines. Following several weeks of ground tests it first flew at White Waltham on 6th November 1957, but did not complete the first full transition from vertical to cruise flight until April 1958. On 5th January 1959 XE521 set up a new convertiplane class (E2) speed record of 307.22 kph (190.9 mph) in the 100 km (62 mile) closed circuit category. The Rotodyne failed to secure any firm orders and the project was cancelled in 1962. The aircraft last flew on 26th January 1962 and was then cut up and scrapped at RAE Farnborough. The museum located a number of major components including an Eland engine, a complete test rotor blade, and several tip jets. These components were airlifted to Weston-super-Mare by an RAF Chinook helicopter. After a long period in storage, repair and restoration of the various parts began in 1995 and was completed in 1996. The Helicopter Museum holds the only remaining major components of the Fairey Rotodyne prototype.
As you can see, the odd part here and there and when I was last there ages ago, I think they had a blade.
Unfortunately AFAIR everything was destroyed when the project was cancelled.
The British are good at that!
SS
edited to add;
click on pic
Fairey Rotodyne, XE521, C/n. F.9429.
The Fairey Rotodyne was the culmination of more than 15 years research into compound or convertible helicopters made by the Fairey Aviation Company. Early trials were carried out between 1947 and 1956 and XE521 was built in 1957 at Hayes, Middlesex as a prototype large compound helicopter, powered by two Napier Eland turboshaft engines. Following several weeks of ground tests it first flew at White Waltham on 6th November 1957, but did not complete the first full transition from vertical to cruise flight until April 1958. On 5th January 1959 XE521 set up a new convertiplane class (E2) speed record of 307.22 kph (190.9 mph) in the 100 km (62 mile) closed circuit category. The Rotodyne failed to secure any firm orders and the project was cancelled in 1962. The aircraft last flew on 26th January 1962 and was then cut up and scrapped at RAE Farnborough. The museum located a number of major components including an Eland engine, a complete test rotor blade, and several tip jets. These components were airlifted to Weston-super-Mare by an RAF Chinook helicopter. After a long period in storage, repair and restoration of the various parts began in 1995 and was completed in 1996. The Helicopter Museum holds the only remaining major components of the Fairey Rotodyne prototype.
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 21st Nov 2005 at 22:16.
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If ever there was an aviation project well ahead of its time, this was probably it. I look forward to seeing a resurrection.... but I'm not holding my breath.......
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The ability for this concept to compete with future rotorcraft and STOL airplanes may be questionable.
However, Groen Brothers Aviation should be complimented for presenting their proposals with a realistic objectivity. For instance; "This first GBA GyroLiner would have a range in excess of 350 miles, cruising at 250 mph."
Perhaps someone should delicately tell Groen that CarterCopter has already produced a far far superior craft.
The following is from CarterCopter Heliplane Transport ; "The aircraft is taller than a four-story building. The main wheels are six feet tall, the two props are 24 feet in diameter and the rotor is one-half the length of a football field. A fully loaded Greyhound bus can be driven up its ramp and parked inside (with room to spare), and then flown away - straight up. Once airborne, the CCH-T converts into a CC gyroplane with flight efficiencies equivalent to fixed-wing aircraft. The CCH-T is designed to cruise at 450 MPH at 30,000 ft altitude and carry a 45,000 lb payload for 1500 miles with a 45-minute fuel reserve."
However, Groen Brothers Aviation should be complimented for presenting their proposals with a realistic objectivity. For instance; "This first GBA GyroLiner would have a range in excess of 350 miles, cruising at 250 mph."
Perhaps someone should delicately tell Groen that CarterCopter has already produced a far far superior craft.
The following is from CarterCopter Heliplane Transport ; "The aircraft is taller than a four-story building. The main wheels are six feet tall, the two props are 24 feet in diameter and the rotor is one-half the length of a football field. A fully loaded Greyhound bus can be driven up its ramp and parked inside (with room to spare), and then flown away - straight up. Once airborne, the CCH-T converts into a CC gyroplane with flight efficiencies equivalent to fixed-wing aircraft. The CCH-T is designed to cruise at 450 MPH at 30,000 ft altitude and carry a 45,000 lb payload for 1500 miles with a 45-minute fuel reserve."
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Some comments:
The Gyrodyne was a wonderful attempt, but it was not far ahead of its time, as evidenced by the billions spent on helos and tiltrotors while ignoring it in the intervening decades.
Quite inefficient, noisy, costly and complex, with fairly poor hover capability, poor Cat A capability and moderately high speed is how it was judged by those who did not write its marketing hype.
Trust your free market, there is no carburettor that runs on water, no secret invention that pours electricity out of cats butts, and no rotorcraft as efficient as an airplane.
The data used by those who looked at and bypassed the Gyrodyne is quite good data, as the aircraft was a truly remarkable proof of concept machine. Nothing beats real flight data, folks!
That is the thanks I have for Dave's comments on the Carter Copter. Carter is making another brave attempt that shows promise, but has a very long way to go before he should publish as if facts are at hand. A bunch of 'Shoulds" and "Mights" and "Shows promise ofs" are needed immediately in his marketing shop, if we can spare some.
The Gyrodyne was a wonderful attempt, but it was not far ahead of its time, as evidenced by the billions spent on helos and tiltrotors while ignoring it in the intervening decades.
Quite inefficient, noisy, costly and complex, with fairly poor hover capability, poor Cat A capability and moderately high speed is how it was judged by those who did not write its marketing hype.
Trust your free market, there is no carburettor that runs on water, no secret invention that pours electricity out of cats butts, and no rotorcraft as efficient as an airplane.
The data used by those who looked at and bypassed the Gyrodyne is quite good data, as the aircraft was a truly remarkable proof of concept machine. Nothing beats real flight data, folks!
That is the thanks I have for Dave's comments on the Carter Copter. Carter is making another brave attempt that shows promise, but has a very long way to go before he should publish as if facts are at hand. A bunch of 'Shoulds" and "Mights" and "Shows promise ofs" are needed immediately in his marketing shop, if we can spare some.
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Salt Lake City, Utah - November 7, 2005 - Groen Brothers Aviation, Inc.
(GBA) (OTC: BB GNBA) announced today that the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) has selected a GBA-led team to design a proof of concept high speed, long range, vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) aircraft designed for use in Combat Search and Rescue roles. Phase one of this potentially multi-year $40 million four phase program, begins with a fifteen month $6.4 million award to develop the preliminary design and perform key technology demonstrations.
(GBA) (OTC: BB GNBA) announced today that the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) has selected a GBA-led team to design a proof of concept high speed, long range, vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) aircraft designed for use in Combat Search and Rescue roles. Phase one of this potentially multi-year $40 million four phase program, begins with a fifteen month $6.4 million award to develop the preliminary design and perform key technology demonstrations.
Dave,
DARPA has very little interest in stuff that can actually be done, or at least be practical. So, if they are spending money on it, that is a statement on the potential of the technology.
-- IFMU
DARPA has very little interest in stuff that can actually be done, or at least be practical. So, if they are spending money on it, that is a statement on the potential of the technology.
-- IFMU
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Nick,
I agree there is usually a good reason ideas are not successfull. But what about the evolution of technology?
The Fairey flew when I was born and your only material choice was aluminum. Could an application of modern aerodynamics, materials and controls help resurrect a design that wasn't profitable at the time?
A good example of technology making an idea work is the submarine. Jules Verne wrote of it, some crazy civil war engineers built one, the Germans made it almost usefull, but it couldn't truly succeed until nuclear power was available.
I agree there is usually a good reason ideas are not successfull. But what about the evolution of technology?
The Fairey flew when I was born and your only material choice was aluminum. Could an application of modern aerodynamics, materials and controls help resurrect a design that wasn't profitable at the time?
A good example of technology making an idea work is the submarine. Jules Verne wrote of it, some crazy civil war engineers built one, the Germans made it almost usefull, but it couldn't truly succeed until nuclear power was available.
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Rarr,
There is always hope, isnt there? Just remember that a rising tide floats all boats, so that massive improvements in powerplants or structures will make all aircraft better at thier jobs. Could be that the differences stay proportionately the same!
There is always hope, isnt there? Just remember that a rising tide floats all boats, so that massive improvements in powerplants or structures will make all aircraft better at thier jobs. Could be that the differences stay proportionately the same!
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quote:
"Salt Lake City, Utah - November 7, 2005 - Groen Brothers Aviation, Inc.
(GBA) (OTC: BB GNBA) announced today that the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) has selected a GBA-led team to design a proof of concept high speed, long range, vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) aircraft designed for use in Combat Search and Rescue roles. Phase one of this potentially multi-year $40 million four phase program, begins with a fifteen month $6.4 million award to develop the preliminary design and perform key technology demonstrations." Unquote.
There were a number of reasons why the Fairey Rotodyne project was cancelled - not all of them were to do with the aircraft. The project showed that the aircraft had tremendous lifting power. Perhaps the political climate had been different, or if the project had been designed and built on the other side of the Atlantic and said "Sikorsky" on the side, we would be flying very different machines today. As we have seen, in the last couple of years or so, even the mighty Sikorsky name has suffered severe political setbacks!
Glad to see that the U.S. government remains open-minded...
"Salt Lake City, Utah - November 7, 2005 - Groen Brothers Aviation, Inc.
(GBA) (OTC: BB GNBA) announced today that the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) has selected a GBA-led team to design a proof of concept high speed, long range, vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) aircraft designed for use in Combat Search and Rescue roles. Phase one of this potentially multi-year $40 million four phase program, begins with a fifteen month $6.4 million award to develop the preliminary design and perform key technology demonstrations." Unquote.
There were a number of reasons why the Fairey Rotodyne project was cancelled - not all of them were to do with the aircraft. The project showed that the aircraft had tremendous lifting power. Perhaps the political climate had been different, or if the project had been designed and built on the other side of the Atlantic and said "Sikorsky" on the side, we would be flying very different machines today. As we have seen, in the last couple of years or so, even the mighty Sikorsky name has suffered severe political setbacks!
Glad to see that the U.S. government remains open-minded...
I can remember being overflown by the prototype when I was a little kiddy - we were visiting friends of my Dad's down on the
South Coast.
Nick mentioned one problem factor which I think would be significant; the sound of 4 transonic jets whizzing around at meninge RRPM had to be heard to be believed. Normal conversation outdoors was certainly not possible while that beaut was in the overhead.
South Coast.
Nick mentioned one problem factor which I think would be significant; the sound of 4 transonic jets whizzing around at meninge RRPM had to be heard to be believed. Normal conversation outdoors was certainly not possible while that beaut was in the overhead.
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Gosh, Thud - you're older than I thought - which makes ME about the same age......... 
Yes, but don't forget that those noisy tip-jets were normally only needed for take off and landing; in the cruise they were autorotating and the aircraft was quieter.
Also, do remember that the aircraft was only ever in the prototype stage. I'm certain that with today's technology the tip-jets could be made far more enviromentally friendly, just as turbo-jet engines were quietened by a significant amount during their lifetime.
http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/fairey_rotodyne-r.html
Looking at this week's weather - the necessary compressed air bleeds through the spars could also very usefully be used to de-ice the blades.
I look forward to seeing Groen Brothers make this type of aircraft work. I can't ever see these machines replacing small, or even medium helicopters, but the type has the potential to be a BIG, versatile load lifter at a relatively decent turn of speed. It is somewhere towards the opposite end of the scale to the tilt-rotor, which is quite a small load lifter but relatively very fast.
Time will tell.
Yes, but don't forget that those noisy tip-jets were normally only needed for take off and landing; in the cruise they were autorotating and the aircraft was quieter.
Also, do remember that the aircraft was only ever in the prototype stage. I'm certain that with today's technology the tip-jets could be made far more enviromentally friendly, just as turbo-jet engines were quietened by a significant amount during their lifetime.
http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/fairey_rotodyne-r.html
Looking at this week's weather - the necessary compressed air bleeds through the spars could also very usefully be used to de-ice the blades.
I look forward to seeing Groen Brothers make this type of aircraft work. I can't ever see these machines replacing small, or even medium helicopters, but the type has the potential to be a BIG, versatile load lifter at a relatively decent turn of speed. It is somewhere towards the opposite end of the scale to the tilt-rotor, which is quite a small load lifter but relatively very fast.
Time will tell.
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Technology can only provide improvement, to that which exists.
However, technology can provide reality, to that which did not exist.
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Please send investment checks to;
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'We think outside the box'
However, technology can provide reality, to that which did not exist.
____________________________
Currently looking for investors in a new product in the transportation field. This product was successfully tested a few years ago when we sent a select group of passengers to a passing comet.
Please send investment checks to;
Teleportation Inc.
Box No: >>infinity
'We think outside the box'
