Anyone flown (or fly) the Huey?
.........and I thought that we were singing the virtues of the venerable Huey. Perhaps we should change the thread to "S61's and how Augusta is the best". What do you think Lu?
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“Mr. Zuckerman's opinions on the quality of license built vs original manufactured items is only his opinion. I have made a living helping license manufacturers get their quality up to factory standards. The idea that the original design and manufacturing team cannot meet the standards they themselves set is clearly incorrect”.
My comments were based on my tour of duty at Agusta (close to three years). I became aware of the extremely high level of quality of the metal work, the methods of construction and the amount of effort made in the construction of the fuselages and other elements of the helicopter. At the time I was at Agusta, I had worked at Hughes Helicopters on the Apache, the Cheyenne at Lockheed, three years at Bell as a service engineering manager and a 14 month training program at Sikorsky with a preponderance of that time on the production floor doing everything from shooting rivets to building blades. I asked the chief engineer about the differences in level of quality between the Agusta product and those of the original designers of the helicopters. His response was that the original designers concentrated on delivery schedule and manpower costs while Agusta did have to concentrate on delivery schedules they did not at that time have to worry about manpower costs because of the nature of the company and how it was an arm of the government. The only helicopter built in the USA that could compare to the level of quality construction of the fuselage was the Apache but Ryan, who has the highest level of metal work, constructed it. Hughes on the other hand was still building models of the 500 series using plaster tooling and at that time they had constructed well over 2000 models of that helicopter.
“Also, many helicopter manufacturers make many transmission parts for their transmissions, unlike Mr. Zuckerman's incorrect assertion. Most manufacturers do the final machining, assembly and testing. No manufacturer makes all the parts of their transmissions. All buy bearings, gearbox case castings and the large gear castings from other aerospace manufacturers. No helicopter manufacturer has the facilities, experience or volume to make gearbox castings, for example.
I did not wish to imply that Agusta made ball and roller bearings but I did imply that they made castings of every transmission on every helicopter they built and they cut every gear for those transmissions. They also make the rotorheads and other components of the dynamic and drive line systems. They have their own casting plant in central Italy that does all of the gear box casting work. They also do the dynamic run in of every transmission they build. Things may have changed at Sikorsky since my time but when I was there they had all of their rotorheads made by a machining company in Connecticut and they came in as a kit and were assembled by Sikorsky. They also purchased their transmissions from Indiana gear Works and they were also shipped in as a kit. The reason I can say this is that I constructed transmission, and rotorheads as well as clutches for the S-55, the S-58 and the H-37. As I previously indicated, it was my understanding that the US Navy purchases components for the dynamic and drivelines for their SH3-Ds from Agusta. Also when I worked for Bell I was told that they did their own casting of transmission elements and they cut their own gears but the did purchase the bearings.
[ 26 December 2001: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]</p>
My comments were based on my tour of duty at Agusta (close to three years). I became aware of the extremely high level of quality of the metal work, the methods of construction and the amount of effort made in the construction of the fuselages and other elements of the helicopter. At the time I was at Agusta, I had worked at Hughes Helicopters on the Apache, the Cheyenne at Lockheed, three years at Bell as a service engineering manager and a 14 month training program at Sikorsky with a preponderance of that time on the production floor doing everything from shooting rivets to building blades. I asked the chief engineer about the differences in level of quality between the Agusta product and those of the original designers of the helicopters. His response was that the original designers concentrated on delivery schedule and manpower costs while Agusta did have to concentrate on delivery schedules they did not at that time have to worry about manpower costs because of the nature of the company and how it was an arm of the government. The only helicopter built in the USA that could compare to the level of quality construction of the fuselage was the Apache but Ryan, who has the highest level of metal work, constructed it. Hughes on the other hand was still building models of the 500 series using plaster tooling and at that time they had constructed well over 2000 models of that helicopter.
“Also, many helicopter manufacturers make many transmission parts for their transmissions, unlike Mr. Zuckerman's incorrect assertion. Most manufacturers do the final machining, assembly and testing. No manufacturer makes all the parts of their transmissions. All buy bearings, gearbox case castings and the large gear castings from other aerospace manufacturers. No helicopter manufacturer has the facilities, experience or volume to make gearbox castings, for example.
I did not wish to imply that Agusta made ball and roller bearings but I did imply that they made castings of every transmission on every helicopter they built and they cut every gear for those transmissions. They also make the rotorheads and other components of the dynamic and drive line systems. They have their own casting plant in central Italy that does all of the gear box casting work. They also do the dynamic run in of every transmission they build. Things may have changed at Sikorsky since my time but when I was there they had all of their rotorheads made by a machining company in Connecticut and they came in as a kit and were assembled by Sikorsky. They also purchased their transmissions from Indiana gear Works and they were also shipped in as a kit. The reason I can say this is that I constructed transmission, and rotorheads as well as clutches for the S-55, the S-58 and the H-37. As I previously indicated, it was my understanding that the US Navy purchases components for the dynamic and drivelines for their SH3-Ds from Agusta. Also when I worked for Bell I was told that they did their own casting of transmission elements and they cut their own gears but the did purchase the bearings.
[ 26 December 2001: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]</p>
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[quote].........and I thought that we were singing the virtues of the venerable Huey. Perhaps we should change the thread to "S61's and how Augusta is the best". What do you think Lu?<hr></blockquote>
You're right, Helmet Fire. That is what the thread was about.
I wanted (and got) contributions from pilots who've flown or still fly this venerable helicopter. That's why the post is called Anyone flown a Huey?
It also gives anyone wishing to learn an opportunity to ask questions.
-----
What was it about the Huey which was so good?
It would be good to hear reminiscences by pilots who flew them in action.
You're right, Helmet Fire. That is what the thread was about.
I wanted (and got) contributions from pilots who've flown or still fly this venerable helicopter. That's why the post is called Anyone flown a Huey?
It also gives anyone wishing to learn an opportunity to ask questions.
-----
What was it about the Huey which was so good?
It would be good to hear reminiscences by pilots who flew them in action.
"Just a pilot"
My best guess-
She had the best crews in the world.
Crew chiefs routinely worked 38 hour days, relying on sleep reserves they accumulated some time in the historical past. Having the aircraft red-x'd when she was needed was a mortal insult. If the Crew Chief said the aircraft would fly, he meant it would fly with his ass in it.
Pilot damage to aircraft not tolerated. I don't think Baby-san would really have broken my arm if I hot started 925-but I wasn't prepared to find out. Oddly, Baby-san would be absolutely silent while I did the most outlandish dumbass FNG pilot stuff up front...
Cleo came to be my gunner from a line outfit. I don't think he'd ever heard the word "fear". If he took three shots to hit a target from a hard turn at 1500 with his free 60, it was somebodys' lucky day-a short day, but lucky to that point. If he'd said he could brush my teeth with that 60, I'd have gotten out the Colgate and a grin. 38 hour days? Cleo did it, and OJT as crew chief-later took over 925. May have even done better than Baby-san, but that's a pure theoretical concept.
925 was the best by-god helicopter that ever turned a blade because two guys in the back wouldn't let it (or me) be anything else.
She had the best crews in the world.
Crew chiefs routinely worked 38 hour days, relying on sleep reserves they accumulated some time in the historical past. Having the aircraft red-x'd when she was needed was a mortal insult. If the Crew Chief said the aircraft would fly, he meant it would fly with his ass in it.
Pilot damage to aircraft not tolerated. I don't think Baby-san would really have broken my arm if I hot started 925-but I wasn't prepared to find out. Oddly, Baby-san would be absolutely silent while I did the most outlandish dumbass FNG pilot stuff up front...
Cleo came to be my gunner from a line outfit. I don't think he'd ever heard the word "fear". If he took three shots to hit a target from a hard turn at 1500 with his free 60, it was somebodys' lucky day-a short day, but lucky to that point. If he'd said he could brush my teeth with that 60, I'd have gotten out the Colgate and a grin. 38 hour days? Cleo did it, and OJT as crew chief-later took over 925. May have even done better than Baby-san, but that's a pure theoretical concept.
925 was the best by-god helicopter that ever turned a blade because two guys in the back wouldn't let it (or me) be anything else.
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Zuckerman said:
Things may have changed at Sikorsky since my time.....
Nick sez:
As an expert and having visited all the world's helicopter manufacturers, with friends and associates at each one, I can assure you that your recollections are pretty much off target as things used to be, and your comments are of no use as things are now.
Virtually everything you recall about helicopter manufacturing as stated in your above post is no longer true, if it ever was.
I meet daily with the Sikorsky people who make Sikorsky rotor heads, transmissions and the like. The machines that cut the metal and mold the composites are lined up on the enormous factory floor for all to see.
It is particularly mysterious how you get the ideas that well up in your posts. History has proven one thing - trying to convince you is of no use. Say what you will, Lu.
[ 26 December 2001: Message edited by: Nick Lappos ]</p>
Things may have changed at Sikorsky since my time.....
Nick sez:
As an expert and having visited all the world's helicopter manufacturers, with friends and associates at each one, I can assure you that your recollections are pretty much off target as things used to be, and your comments are of no use as things are now.
Virtually everything you recall about helicopter manufacturing as stated in your above post is no longer true, if it ever was.
I meet daily with the Sikorsky people who make Sikorsky rotor heads, transmissions and the like. The machines that cut the metal and mold the composites are lined up on the enormous factory floor for all to see.
It is particularly mysterious how you get the ideas that well up in your posts. History has proven one thing - trying to convince you is of no use. Say what you will, Lu.
[ 26 December 2001: Message edited by: Nick Lappos ]</p>
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To: Nick Lappos
Sooner than getting into a P*****G contest with an “expert” I will remind you of a caution offered to me by Heliport. It in part stated that I should not post defamatory information and I should have a means of backing up my statements. I qualified my post by indicating that this is the way it was when I was involved in the various programs and relative to Sikorsky it may very well have changed. If it in effect has changed then what I said is no longer true. My experience with Agusta was about twelve years ago and at that time they had their own casting facility and their own gear cutting capability and Bell did as well. Agustaalso put more manhours into the construction of their helicopters and as such had a higher build quality than the licensing companies. With the advent of elastomeric rotor systems maybe Sikorsky brought the machining capability in-house and no longer relied on outside vendors to produce their rotorheads and maybe with the advent of new machining capabilities Sikorsky started to cut their own gears and just bought castings from outside vendors. Agusta on the other hand (at the time of my involvement) made their own castings, their own forgings, and their own gears and assembled and tested these transmissions in their own test labs. This was true for SH3-Ds, S-61s, all of the AB products, the HH3-Fs, the CH-47s, their own product line (A-129, A-109 series and the EH-101).
You on the other hand simply said I was wrong without offering the facts as to why I was wrong.
Regarding the use of the term "expert" I will remind you of the definition of the term. An expert is an individual that knows exactly how many sticks of dynamite to slip into a bulls nostrils in order to blow the bulls horns off without getting the bulls eyes bloodshot.
[ 26 December 2001: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]</p>
Sooner than getting into a P*****G contest with an “expert” I will remind you of a caution offered to me by Heliport. It in part stated that I should not post defamatory information and I should have a means of backing up my statements. I qualified my post by indicating that this is the way it was when I was involved in the various programs and relative to Sikorsky it may very well have changed. If it in effect has changed then what I said is no longer true. My experience with Agusta was about twelve years ago and at that time they had their own casting facility and their own gear cutting capability and Bell did as well. Agustaalso put more manhours into the construction of their helicopters and as such had a higher build quality than the licensing companies. With the advent of elastomeric rotor systems maybe Sikorsky brought the machining capability in-house and no longer relied on outside vendors to produce their rotorheads and maybe with the advent of new machining capabilities Sikorsky started to cut their own gears and just bought castings from outside vendors. Agusta on the other hand (at the time of my involvement) made their own castings, their own forgings, and their own gears and assembled and tested these transmissions in their own test labs. This was true for SH3-Ds, S-61s, all of the AB products, the HH3-Fs, the CH-47s, their own product line (A-129, A-109 series and the EH-101).
You on the other hand simply said I was wrong without offering the facts as to why I was wrong.
Regarding the use of the term "expert" I will remind you of the definition of the term. An expert is an individual that knows exactly how many sticks of dynamite to slip into a bulls nostrils in order to blow the bulls horns off without getting the bulls eyes bloodshot.
[ 26 December 2001: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]</p>
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Is it so hard to just answer the question:
Yes! 2500 in H model Hueys...Tropics to the Antarctic... A glorious beast unsurpassed low level on a crystal clear winters morning. The sound of freedom.
Sadly now confined to FL370 with 'george' at the helm.
Yes! 2500 in H model Hueys...Tropics to the Antarctic... A glorious beast unsurpassed low level on a crystal clear winters morning. The sound of freedom.
Sadly now confined to FL370 with 'george' at the helm.
To answer the thread's question:
Yes, 1200 hours in AB205 (equivalent to H) in one of the most breath-taking countries in the world. Never mind what the recent victims of Saif Sareea II say about it; Oman had everything a baby heli pilot could want and more. Landing and shutting-down in a wadi 2500 feet high, 1000 feet below the top on an otherwise vertical cliff face - unable to lash the blades as the tailboom was sticking out over the lower 1500 feet. Standard operating altitude on exercise and task was <50 feet, 'cos everything above that belonged to the Hunters and the occasional lunatic Skyvan driver. Could've done with better crosswind-from-the-right performance up on the jebel (ops up to 10000 feet, +26 deg once), though...
More recently, 850 hours over 3 years on the 212 in the Borneo jungle. And they actually PAID me to do it! Does life get any better than that? Apart from stiff knees while I reacquainted myself with that unique Bell attitude to cockpit ergonomics, there wasn't a single thing I'd change about the beastie.
Only one thing I'd change about this board, though.. I wish there was a filter that could zap a Lu-ism before it even left his keyboard. Boy, am I getting tired of Z and the Art of Helicopter Maintenance. Sorry if that sounds intolerant in what I gather some people consider a season of goodwill to all men, but I find I only have so much of that commodity to offer.
Eid Mubarak/ Happy New Year/ Gong Xi Fa Chai or whatever to everyone else.
Yes, 1200 hours in AB205 (equivalent to H) in one of the most breath-taking countries in the world. Never mind what the recent victims of Saif Sareea II say about it; Oman had everything a baby heli pilot could want and more. Landing and shutting-down in a wadi 2500 feet high, 1000 feet below the top on an otherwise vertical cliff face - unable to lash the blades as the tailboom was sticking out over the lower 1500 feet. Standard operating altitude on exercise and task was <50 feet, 'cos everything above that belonged to the Hunters and the occasional lunatic Skyvan driver. Could've done with better crosswind-from-the-right performance up on the jebel (ops up to 10000 feet, +26 deg once), though...
More recently, 850 hours over 3 years on the 212 in the Borneo jungle. And they actually PAID me to do it! Does life get any better than that? Apart from stiff knees while I reacquainted myself with that unique Bell attitude to cockpit ergonomics, there wasn't a single thing I'd change about the beastie.
Only one thing I'd change about this board, though.. I wish there was a filter that could zap a Lu-ism before it even left his keyboard. Boy, am I getting tired of Z and the Art of Helicopter Maintenance. Sorry if that sounds intolerant in what I gather some people consider a season of goodwill to all men, but I find I only have so much of that commodity to offer.
Eid Mubarak/ Happy New Year/ Gong Xi Fa Chai or whatever to everyone else.
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Thanks for the excellent reminiscences guys. Keep 'em coming!
[quote]"Only one thing I'd change about this board, though.. I wish there was a filter that could zap a Lu-ism before it even left his keyboard. Boy, am I getting tired of Z and the Art of Helicopter Maintenance. Sorry if that sounds intolerant in what I gather some people consider a season of goodwill to all men, but I find I only have so much of that commodity to offer."<hr></blockquote>
Lu Z:
PLEASE would you pause for a moment to consider that comment. Although it's expressed in much wittier terms than people usually use, it's a very familiar theme isn't it.
[quote]"Only one thing I'd change about this board, though.. I wish there was a filter that could zap a Lu-ism before it even left his keyboard. Boy, am I getting tired of Z and the Art of Helicopter Maintenance. Sorry if that sounds intolerant in what I gather some people consider a season of goodwill to all men, but I find I only have so much of that commodity to offer."<hr></blockquote>
Lu Z:
PLEASE would you pause for a moment to consider that comment. Although it's expressed in much wittier terms than people usually use, it's a very familiar theme isn't it.
Howard C? Who he?
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Strange contest between an expert test pilot and an expert maintenance man!
And how would you keep Lu on topic. Nobody's ever succeeded yet? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
"Z and the Art of Helicopter Maintenance" - one of the funniest comments of 2001 T&B. Says it all!
[ 27 December 2001: Message edited by: Hoverman ]</p>
And how would you keep Lu on topic. Nobody's ever succeeded yet? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
"Z and the Art of Helicopter Maintenance" - one of the funniest comments of 2001 T&B. Says it all!
[ 27 December 2001: Message edited by: Hoverman ]</p>
A few years back I acquired an old printout from the Oz Huey Gunship crews explaining the role of all the other Oz defence force aircraft. Please feel free to expand on it as I can only vaguely remember the gist of it. Maybe w-ocker or Bushranger will recall it.
But how wonderfully true...
C130 Herc: Long range Huey gunship transporter.
B707: Huey gunship overseas crew deployment vehicle.
Caribou: Short field transport to move adoring fans to the range area for Huey gunship displays.
CH-47: Huey gunship crew van transporter.
S-70: Huey gunship fuel and ammo resupply vehicle.
F-18: Aerial drone used to attract ground fire away from the real threat - the Huey gunship. Also used as a decoy for Huey air to air engagements.
F-111: Precision LZ maker for Huey gunship forward bases.
RF-111: High speed reconnaisance aircraft for Huey gunship strikes.
Nomad: P1ss transporter for Huey gunship deployments.
Kiowa: Target marker for Huey gunship strikes.
SeaHawk: Offshore target detector for Huey gunship strikes.
...or something like that. anyone care to add more?
.....and someone asked why the Huey was so good. The world revolves around them!!
But how wonderfully true...
C130 Herc: Long range Huey gunship transporter.
B707: Huey gunship overseas crew deployment vehicle.
Caribou: Short field transport to move adoring fans to the range area for Huey gunship displays.
CH-47: Huey gunship crew van transporter.
S-70: Huey gunship fuel and ammo resupply vehicle.
F-18: Aerial drone used to attract ground fire away from the real threat - the Huey gunship. Also used as a decoy for Huey air to air engagements.
F-111: Precision LZ maker for Huey gunship forward bases.
RF-111: High speed reconnaisance aircraft for Huey gunship strikes.
Nomad: P1ss transporter for Huey gunship deployments.
Kiowa: Target marker for Huey gunship strikes.
SeaHawk: Offshore target detector for Huey gunship strikes.
...or something like that. anyone care to add more?
.....and someone asked why the Huey was so good. The world revolves around them!!
Helmut,
Love it! Me, only a couple of thousand in the 212, mostly offshore, bit of SAR with the NSCA (where is Freddo?? <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> ), and some offshore stuff in UnZud in a 205 with lightweight floats: hollow skid tubes. Common NS theory was that the 212 should be painted yellow with a Mack truck hood ornament on the nose <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Watching the ex military UH1's in a variety of guises currently fire fighting in NSW, mostly bought for the price of a JetRanger, and all doing sterling work under the Restricted category.
HeliPro even ferried a 204 and a BK117 from UnZud earlier this week, two days later they were on the fire line!!
Love it! Me, only a couple of thousand in the 212, mostly offshore, bit of SAR with the NSCA (where is Freddo?? <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> ), and some offshore stuff in UnZud in a 205 with lightweight floats: hollow skid tubes. Common NS theory was that the 212 should be painted yellow with a Mack truck hood ornament on the nose <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Watching the ex military UH1's in a variety of guises currently fire fighting in NSW, mostly bought for the price of a JetRanger, and all doing sterling work under the Restricted category.
HeliPro even ferried a 204 and a BK117 from UnZud earlier this week, two days later they were on the fire line!!
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A reasonable question young Eacott. Everytime I see Thunderbirds I have a suspicion that a German accent will pop up in some tropical island rescue scenario. The legend lives on.
Also who was the pilot who kicked in the front door.....another legend he'll know who.
All the best for 6002.
Huey....isn't he a celebrity chef? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
[ 05 January 2002: Message edited by: volpe ]</p>
Also who was the pilot who kicked in the front door.....another legend he'll know who.
All the best for 6002.
Huey....isn't he a celebrity chef? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
[ 05 January 2002: Message edited by: volpe ]</p>
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Follwoing on from the NSCA theme, I was one of the lucky ones...although not blue eyed and blond..who courtesy of Freddo started from scratch on the B205. Big Helicopter for first flight, first solo. Nice way to start your civilian aviation career though. Spoilt...well maybe!!
For those of you who know me and are going to comment..yes I can still breathe through my ears!!!
For those of you who know me and are going to comment..yes I can still breathe through my ears!!!