EH101 Merlin
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I know this thread is about the Merlin, but......
Spur - If the Puma has such a short service life ahead of it, why acquire those 6 ex-SAAF airframes? Will they ever enter RAF service, or is this a smaller and less well-known procurement FUBAR? Just curious.
Spur - If the Puma has such a short service life ahead of it, why acquire those 6 ex-SAAF airframes? Will they ever enter RAF service, or is this a smaller and less well-known procurement FUBAR? Just curious.
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Fit it with floats and an outboard motor and you stand a chance of making it back to Mother!!!
Fit a crew escape system and the crew stand a fighting chance of surviving those 'teething troubles' with this 'wonderful' panacia of a helicopter.
It might be great - eventually, however, it's not ready to be in service yet. (and yes, I have flown it)
Fit a crew escape system and the crew stand a fighting chance of surviving those 'teething troubles' with this 'wonderful' panacia of a helicopter.
It might be great - eventually, however, it's not ready to be in service yet. (and yes, I have flown it)
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"It might be great - eventually, however, it's not ready to be in service yet. (and yes, I have flown it)"
May I start by saying I feel your posts on this thread have been nothing less than partisan.
To continue:
1. Are you a qualified test pilot, air engineer or IPT wallah who has sat through hours of meetings, sometimes furstrated and sometimes angry - I have and am the former.
2. Have you ever flown in a grey Merlin on operational sorties in a war zone where it provided the only accurate and comprehensive surface picture available to the allies in the NAG during Telic - I know loads who have?
3. Were you intimitaely involved in the first accident enquiry process or have even bothered to read the openly available report - in service that is?
4. Have you flown the Merlin for 1500 miles across deserts and mountains at 10,000 ft at 130 kts , carried out in excess of 500 Merlin deck landings and operated it with cockpit temps >+60 deg C.
5. Have you then gone flying in a Sea King and realised what a old defunct girl she is ?
6. Have you flown any other aircraft that can operate in icing conditions throughout its flight envelope?
If not you are probably one of those nice Chinook drivers who will never accept there is another aircraft more suited to the roles it was given. And having been in a Chinook Mk 3 I tell you the NAO were right.
On the Merlin Mk3 I will concede only 3 things - did the RAF need to buy it when they did and why, once they bought it, did they not learn any Mk1 lessons at all and ignore it till it came into service.
I don't suppose you will stop your considerable whining on this thread but I suppose you could be a Lynx driver - bad luck!
May I start by saying I feel your posts on this thread have been nothing less than partisan.
To continue:
1. Are you a qualified test pilot, air engineer or IPT wallah who has sat through hours of meetings, sometimes furstrated and sometimes angry - I have and am the former.
2. Have you ever flown in a grey Merlin on operational sorties in a war zone where it provided the only accurate and comprehensive surface picture available to the allies in the NAG during Telic - I know loads who have?
3. Were you intimitaely involved in the first accident enquiry process or have even bothered to read the openly available report - in service that is?
4. Have you flown the Merlin for 1500 miles across deserts and mountains at 10,000 ft at 130 kts , carried out in excess of 500 Merlin deck landings and operated it with cockpit temps >+60 deg C.
5. Have you then gone flying in a Sea King and realised what a old defunct girl she is ?
6. Have you flown any other aircraft that can operate in icing conditions throughout its flight envelope?
If not you are probably one of those nice Chinook drivers who will never accept there is another aircraft more suited to the roles it was given. And having been in a Chinook Mk 3 I tell you the NAO were right.
On the Merlin Mk3 I will concede only 3 things - did the RAF need to buy it when they did and why, once they bought it, did they not learn any Mk1 lessons at all and ignore it till it came into service.
I don't suppose you will stop your considerable whining on this thread but I suppose you could be a Lynx driver - bad luck!
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Yes, no, no, no, yes, yes!
Oh, and I'll prefix future posts with a 'tongue in cheek' smiley!
I'm not arguing it's pros and cons Vs other platforms - simply that it was not ready to enter service and is still not up the spec or the job.
1500 miles at 130 Kts eh? AAR capable too!!??
Still, a bite is a bite and all that!!
Oh, and I'll prefix future posts with a 'tongue in cheek' smiley!
I'm not arguing it's pros and cons Vs other platforms - simply that it was not ready to enter service and is still not up the spec or the job.
1500 miles at 130 Kts eh? AAR capable too!!??
Still, a bite is a bite and all that!!
Suspicion breeds confidence
Webf,
I have some responses to your questions:
1. Is it possible or desirable for the Merlin to be fitted with the HMG pod, given the current threat from small surface craft?
>> I don't think a suitable pod exists as yet and if it did it would not be "integrated". We would still be in manually aimed environment. IIRC there are proposals to fit a .50cal pod to the Merlin. Quite why they chose .50cal beats me. Too light for junk bashing.
2. Is it possible for the Type 23 Frigate to carry both a Merlin and a Lynx (for Sea Skua and machine gun capability)?
>> No. Just not enough room. I don't think the Merlin will ever be cleared for Sea Skua. the T23 hangar seems narrower then the T22. I maybe wrong on this though.
3. The Italians have armed their Merlins (or whatever they call them) with anti ship missiles. Will we do the same?
>>No. but we should. Penguin would be an excellent choice, with good range and warhead size.
4. It is planned that out of sixteen T23s, only twelve will receive Merlin and the new 2087 towed array sonar. Given the ship handling problems associated with towed arrays, isn't Merlin a more serious thing to not get. Shouldn't they at least get Merlin?
>>I suspect the T23s in question will be "retired early" before too long eliminating the problem.
I have some responses to your questions:
1. Is it possible or desirable for the Merlin to be fitted with the HMG pod, given the current threat from small surface craft?
>> I don't think a suitable pod exists as yet and if it did it would not be "integrated". We would still be in manually aimed environment. IIRC there are proposals to fit a .50cal pod to the Merlin. Quite why they chose .50cal beats me. Too light for junk bashing.
2. Is it possible for the Type 23 Frigate to carry both a Merlin and a Lynx (for Sea Skua and machine gun capability)?
>> No. Just not enough room. I don't think the Merlin will ever be cleared for Sea Skua. the T23 hangar seems narrower then the T22. I maybe wrong on this though.
3. The Italians have armed their Merlins (or whatever they call them) with anti ship missiles. Will we do the same?
>>No. but we should. Penguin would be an excellent choice, with good range and warhead size.
4. It is planned that out of sixteen T23s, only twelve will receive Merlin and the new 2087 towed array sonar. Given the ship handling problems associated with towed arrays, isn't Merlin a more serious thing to not get. Shouldn't they at least get Merlin?
>>I suspect the T23s in question will be "retired early" before too long eliminating the problem.
Last edited by Navaleye; 10th Jun 2004 at 12:21.
Certain Type 22 Frigates carried both a Lynx and a Sea King. The Type 23 was designed with the Merlin in mind.
T22 beam = 14.8m.
T23 beam = 16.1m.
Surely a Lynx/Merlin combination would allow the Merlin to do anti submarine stuff and surface search, and let the Lynx concentrate on anti surface tasks - Sea Skua, HMG pod and boarding party insertion?
T22 beam = 14.8m.
T23 beam = 16.1m.
Surely a Lynx/Merlin combination would allow the Merlin to do anti submarine stuff and surface search, and let the Lynx concentrate on anti surface tasks - Sea Skua, HMG pod and boarding party insertion?
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Merlin
WEF - not sure which T22's you've served on but recalling from my days as a Sea King FLOBS I don't recall there being enough space for a lynx with the Sea King in the hangar! 2 Lynx yes but not one of each.
As for 23's there's barely space for all the GSE/ASSE with a Merlin embarked let alone anything else.
As for 23's there's barely space for all the GSE/ASSE with a Merlin embarked let alone anything else.
From todays Rotorhub
EH101: new tail rotors send UK Merlins flying again
All of the UK’s EH101 ‘Merlins’ are being fitted with the latest version of the tail rotor hub – a move which should have both the Royal Navy and RAF fleets (39 and 22 aircraft respectively) back to full time flying within the week.
Chris Palmer, deputy chief of aviation, Royal Navy, speaking to rotorhub.com said that the preliminary results of the RN’s investigation into the crash of a Royal Navy EH101 at RNAS Culdrose (30 March) revealed that the aircraft had suffered “vibration sufficient to cause the failure of the hub and the subsequent detachment of a rotor blade.”
Tests conducted at AgustaWestland’s Yeovil facility in the UK with the new tail rotor hub fitted onto an RAF aircraft have satisfied the investigation team that all of the Merlins can be cleared to fly.
“Our aim in conducting a detailed investigation was to maintain crew confidence in the aircraft,” said Palmer. “We are fully behind the Merlin and consider it a fantastic aircraft to fly,” he confirmed.
Both the Italian and Canadian aircraft fleets have different tail rotor hub varients to those on UK aircraft.
EH101: new tail rotors send UK Merlins flying again
All of the UK’s EH101 ‘Merlins’ are being fitted with the latest version of the tail rotor hub – a move which should have both the Royal Navy and RAF fleets (39 and 22 aircraft respectively) back to full time flying within the week.
Chris Palmer, deputy chief of aviation, Royal Navy, speaking to rotorhub.com said that the preliminary results of the RN’s investigation into the crash of a Royal Navy EH101 at RNAS Culdrose (30 March) revealed that the aircraft had suffered “vibration sufficient to cause the failure of the hub and the subsequent detachment of a rotor blade.”
Tests conducted at AgustaWestland’s Yeovil facility in the UK with the new tail rotor hub fitted onto an RAF aircraft have satisfied the investigation team that all of the Merlins can be cleared to fly.
“Our aim in conducting a detailed investigation was to maintain crew confidence in the aircraft,” said Palmer. “We are fully behind the Merlin and consider it a fantastic aircraft to fly,” he confirmed.
Both the Italian and Canadian aircraft fleets have different tail rotor hub varients to those on UK aircraft.
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EH101: new tail rotors send UK Merlins flying again
The Canadian CH149 Cormorant has the same TR as the 101 Mk1 and 3. They have gone through the exact same mod program as the 101s but have got to the end of the mod chain more quickly.
I just though I would point that out in case anyone thought that the delay in UK Merlin flight was based on some fundamental difference between the A/C
I just though I would point that out in case anyone thought that the delay in UK Merlin flight was based on some fundamental difference between the A/C
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I have on good authority that the RN had a Merlin 'turnin & burnin' down at Culdrose today.......not airborne but at least its a start. Culdrose has its airday in a week or so so there must be some pressure to get one airborne for that....
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Why is the 'way ahead' just sooo secret?? If Culdrose are getting their aircraft back in the air, what has been done to fix the grounding snag??
Any clues or even rumours on the street?
Any clues or even rumours on the street?
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Positive mental attitude time!!
The Merlin Will be up and flying next week!!
In a couple of years time we will look back at these forums and laugh that we ever doubted her at all!
Also we are missing the important issues here! The Merlin is the sexiest looking and sounding big helo in the world and that's what's really important isn't it!?
The Merlin Will be up and flying next week!!
In a couple of years time we will look back at these forums and laugh that we ever doubted her at all!
Also we are missing the important issues here! The Merlin is the sexiest looking and sounding big helo in the world and that's what's really important isn't it!?
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Dear Mr Goat,
Your are obviously one of those who can't read the thread so idlely slag things off for ever.
This thread says it all- i was going to repeat it but its all here.
Give your fingers and us all a break.
Your are obviously one of those who can't read the thread so idlely slag things off for ever.
This thread says it all- i was going to repeat it but its all here.
Give your fingers and us all a break.
Why have other operators got different hubs. Did they know something the UK operators didn't?
Finally, (and this is definitely what the military are cr*p at), a beast like this wouldn't exist in civvy street. No-one would touch it because the R and D programme would bankrupt the company that built one.
If you throw money at something for long enough - anything is possible and this is what the mil have done.
An RN Merlin now costs between £30 and £40 million pounds. Not a squadron of merlins - just one / uno / on its own / single...
Where in the name of faith is the sound business sense in that?
It's the equivalent of swapping white van mans van with a bloody bentley estate!!!! Great if youre the driver............................
Finally, (and this is definitely what the military are cr*p at), a beast like this wouldn't exist in civvy street. No-one would touch it because the R and D programme would bankrupt the company that built one.
If you throw money at something for long enough - anything is possible and this is what the mil have done.
An RN Merlin now costs between £30 and £40 million pounds. Not a squadron of merlins - just one / uno / on its own / single...
Where in the name of faith is the sound business sense in that?
It's the equivalent of swapping white van mans van with a bloody bentley estate!!!! Great if youre the driver............................
Thomas C is on the money..... Merlin is a great cab but what of the cost/benefit analysis? At the end of the day we are all tax payers and you have to look at what we are getting for the money. If money was not an issue in UK defence planning it would not be so tragic.
Nevertheless it will be great to see the aircraft type back in the skies as soon as possible to pick up where it left off in development terms.
Nevertheless it will be great to see the aircraft type back in the skies as soon as possible to pick up where it left off in development terms.
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fuel2nose good argument, I went to google, searched "merlin helicopter project cost" and found :
http://www.mod.uk/dpa/projects/merlin.htm
Just for fun lets suppose we divide the big number (4.65 billion GBP) by the small one (44) ?
I guess, being an official government website, the project cost figure includes research, development, surface combatant modifications, hangars shoreside, simulators, stores, training, avionics, personnel, manufacturer profit etc etc over the past many years
Is that not the way to compute true unit cost ?
Would keep Thomas Coupling in Bentley "estates" for a while !!
http://www.mod.uk/dpa/projects/merlin.htm
Just for fun lets suppose we divide the big number (4.65 billion GBP) by the small one (44) ?
I guess, being an official government website, the project cost figure includes research, development, surface combatant modifications, hangars shoreside, simulators, stores, training, avionics, personnel, manufacturer profit etc etc over the past many years
Is that not the way to compute true unit cost ?
Would keep Thomas Coupling in Bentley "estates" for a while !!