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Old 18th Mar 2017, 10:36   #1 (permalink)
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737 Handling

I've never flown the 737, but a lot of ex 737 pilots I train on the 747 over control in roll at first. Is this really what's required on a 737 or is he hamming it up for the camera?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...igh-winds.html
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Old 18th Mar 2017, 11:34   #2 (permalink)
 
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Looks like over controlling to me, however I wasn't there.

Overall though the B737 does require a reasonable amount of input on a blustery day, especially the NG's.
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Old 18th Mar 2017, 14:15   #3 (permalink)
 
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In 737 simulators, Pilot induced oscillation on final approach is a common theme. Easy fixed by relaxing the hands off the wheel momentarily and aircraft stops rolling.
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Old 18th Mar 2017, 15:36   #4 (permalink)
 
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The 737 is the only in production large transport aircraft which can be flown with pure muscle power in the event of loss of hyd. power. To enable the forces the yoke needs to transfer a large amount of torque, ergo the large travels on the roll and pitch. Having flown the 737 for more then 18 years, every time I jump into the 777 or 310 Sim I initially overcontrol and have to deliberately reduce my inputs to avoid oscillating.
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Old 18th Mar 2017, 15:42   #5 (permalink)
 
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Is this really what's required on a 737 or is he hamming it up for the camera?

I flew B732/733/737/738. To keep the a/c reasonable stable required a lot of 'damping' aileron. The amount of roll input looked crazy to PNF, but it was instinctive to keep the wings reasonable level; very proactive not reactive. I then flew B767 in similar conditions and it rode out the turbulence much better with much less aileron. The amount of deflection was much less and the amount of 'stirring the pudding' less. Your backside, internal gyros and eyes were all feeding into your hands via what should be the best computer on the a/c. You were not aware of what you were doing; just doing what was necessary. It is unlikely PF could even describe what they had just done and were unaware of it.

In this video I was surprised by the amount of elevator input that was being used. I was trying to workout if this was X-wind, and which side. After a few reviews I suspect it was turbulence with not much x-wind. The aileron input was 50/50 both directions and after landing there was no aileron held into wind. But I was surprised by what appeared to be back elevator after touchdown. <500' there was a lot of down elevator movement. This would suggest large changes in vertical air movement. It must have been quite exciting & challenging at the same time.

Last edited by RAT 5; 18th Mar 2017 at 16:19.
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Old 18th Mar 2017, 18:23   #6 (permalink)
 
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Just like flying into LBA last night. I let the autopilot do the first bit. It was a lot more vigorous than this chap and it was operating well outside its autoland limits. On disconnection, I was slower, less vigorous and my tracking was worse. I think this chap's video is representative of flying a 737 in gusty conditions. At times we do earn our money.
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Old 18th Mar 2017, 21:00   #7 (permalink)
 
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Over controlling for sure

The aircraft physically cannot react to control inputs that fast. The mass and inertia will not allow it. Not sure of the time lapses between the frames, but a good 95% of the FOs I fly with, are not much off this in 5 knots of wind. I ask them what they are doing, what is prompting them to work the controls that much, but they have no answer. I point out the fact that the only reason you put left aileron in is because you put too much right aileron in, ab adsurdum. Neither flight directors, airspeed nor pitch actually require any input, but they are busy as bevees with aileron, elevator and thrust. Each time I tell them to let go of the controls, they are shocked at how good it flies by itself.

re: video-I've never seen an autopilot work like that. Even if it tried, it would not have the "experience" to "know" that the present updraft will soon be followed by a downdraft of roughly equal measure, the present roll moment to the left will soon be followed by a roll to the right, the present increase in airspeed is usually followed a by a roughly equal decrease in airspeed. In those cases, I've seen it simply disconnect, "admitting" it is unable to cope with the situation and prompting hopefully some more "intelligent" human intervention.

My private pilot instructor, a Huey driver in Nam, verbally and physically implanted into my hard head, not to over control. "Use pressures, not movements"

737-1,2,3,4,5,800

Last edited by stator vane; 19th Mar 2017 at 05:41. Reason: further explanation
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Old 19th Mar 2017, 00:01   #8 (permalink)
 
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I agree with the above. One of the first bits of advice I got as a new FO on type was to stop attempting to correct every perceived attitude or flight path change with sharp control input.

I slowed everything down and let the aircraft "ride" the bumps without trying to immediately correct every tiny deviation, and immediately a far more stable, comfortably flown approach ensued.

Edit: I'm not making specific comments as to this guy's approach as there's nothing worse than someone sitting on a couch telling you how much better they would have flown it. But in general I think there's a tendency to overcontrol in these conditions, I certainly used to, and maybe still do when the heat's on.
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Old 19th Mar 2017, 00:03   #9 (permalink)
 
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I really have no idea how much control input I use myself on blustery days, and I think not very many do. Therefore I find it hard to judge other pilots' actions. While I like the concept of applying 'pressure' to the yoke, to achieve the desired result, there are days where you just need to put the nose where it needs to be. A bit rough, but necessary. I think RAT5 put it very nicely in words.
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Old 19th Mar 2017, 04:45   #10 (permalink)
 
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Discussing the video with my brother (10 year 737 Captain),
his response was " xxxxx!, looks like he's beating a cake mix!
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Old 19th Mar 2017, 17:51   #11 (permalink)
 
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737

Is this typical in xwinds? Some comments say it was in the sim and others say such deflection can lead to PIO.

Video
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Old 19th Mar 2017, 18:04   #12 (permalink)
 
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Cant say i have ever worn sun glasses in the sim...

Looks just like a really gusty bumpy approach to be honest
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Old 19th Mar 2017, 18:10   #13 (permalink)
 
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A sim?

I've never been in a sweat box that can simulate sun light streaming in through the windows and has a proper FD door at the back.
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Old 19th Mar 2017, 18:54   #14 (permalink)
 
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Major overcontrolling imo, that's a brutal way to fly a 737. He seems to have forgotten he is in a transport jet not a Pitts. A good half of that "turbulence" is entirely self-induced.
Half as many movements and at less than half the speed would be more like it.
Must have been the ride from Hell in the cabin with control inputs as vicious as that.
Not clever.
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Old 19th Mar 2017, 18:58   #15 (permalink)
 
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Well, that just goes to show why Polish pilots have a certain reputation, matched only by the Russians perhaps.
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 17:50   #16 (permalink)
 
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Bit of work going on here. Don't know how it compares to the other under discussion.

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Old 20th Mar 2017, 20:59   #17 (permalink)
 
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Well, that just goes to show why Polish pilots have a certain reputation, matched only by the Russians perhaps.

https://youtu.be/P-ivWWf1qxc

Fast forward to 2.45m and see what "stirring the pudding really looks like." Note in the B737 video the twitching of the right knee. Note the difference in the aero video. Hence I suggest the B737 was a headwind turbulence landing not a X-wind landing. The former reminded me of my dog dreaming on front of the fire.
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 22:13   #18 (permalink)
 
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You can not tell what the PF is feeling on the controls you'd really have to go by flight path ( Which looked stable me)

Although it is a trend to start fighting in gusts and such but I have generally found all that pushing pulling and banking to be useless but I'm very sensitive with airplanes...always have been
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 08:47   #19 (permalink)
 
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"Use pressures, not movements"

Half as many movements and at less than half the speed would be more like it.


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Old 21st Mar 2017, 10:49   #20 (permalink)
 
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Hand flying 737

Looks like this is an interesting way of hand flying a 737, I am no airline pilot, but it's the first time I see this !

https://www.facebook.com/ArturKielak...1380376079478/
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