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Old 28th Dec 2012, 09:23   #1 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
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Getting a Type Rating with a faa private licence and then getting ATP, Can I fly?

Hello,
I'm an european pilot with a jaa commercial licence. If I hold a faa private pilot licence with a multi engine and IR rating, can I get the type rating for a jet aircraft and then, some months later, get the ATP and use the type rating with the ATP licence? I do not hold the FAA commercial but nearly meet the requirements for the ATP, so I have to do some extra hours. But the guy who wants to employ me wants me to do the type rating next february because he had the course scheduled for another pilot who finally left. The thing is I still have to do some extra flight time on my present job to meet the atp standars, just 2 or 3 months, so the better for me would be to get the TR with the private licence and then "upgrade" to ATP, if this is possible. Otherwise, I will have to pay the flighttime prior to the type rating course, but if I could i would like much more to do it flying for my company, earning money instead of paying.
Thanks for your time.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 13:05   #2 (permalink)
 
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There is no requirement to hold an ATPL to do a type rating. Sometimes the training facility might demand one, but there's no FAA rule that does so. Technically, any private pilot could do a B744 type rating if they wanted to.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 13:37   #3 (permalink)
 
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Thank you very much for your reply AdamFrisch. I didn't explain myself correctly, what I would like to know is if, once I pass the ATP, I could fly "professionally", "earning money", with the aircraft which I had get the type rating with the private licence.
To explain: I have a faa private pilot licence with IR and MultiEngine Rating, I get a TR of a twin jet (in example a Cessna Citation) on the basis of the private licence, some months later I pass the ATP exams. At the end of all this, can I fly the twin jet professionaly, not just for private flight?
Thank you again.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 13:52   #4 (permalink)
 
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All FAA T/R's are conducted to ATP practical test standards, even if added to a PPL or CPL. If you go and add a jet, say, on a PPL, it won't automatically convert to an ATPL upon passing the written exam. You would have to do the full ATP check ride on your next recurrent training.

Next issue - will you get insurance on the new type with 'only' a PPL/IR? Which Citation? Is it multi-pilot certified?

You cannot be paid on a PPL as a pilot. Do you hold another ICAO CPL? Do a CPL check ride with the T/R. Suggest you contact the training centre manager or program manager.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 14:52   #5 (permalink)
 
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Hello 500Above, thank you very much for your message. So, if I understand correctly, if I do the full ATP check ride on the next recurrent training, the Type Rating I had obtained with my private licence will allow me to fly commercially the plane. That's ok for me. I will not fly the plane with the private licence, I just will pass the rating which is already scheduled, return to Europe and keep on flying with my european CPL in my company until I meet the FAA ATP flight hours requirements, and then, with the ATP in my hands, start flying the aircraft. As far as I know the plane is not multi-pilot certified, I do not know the exact model but it's being flown for a private owner in Africa,with only one pilot. They told me I would have to fly 50h for insurance with another pilot before flying alone, that's all.

You tell me: " Do a CPL check ride with the T/R", can this be done? I contacted a training center in USA and they told me I couldn't. And if possible and I did it, what happens with the Instruments Rating? Because as far as I know the ATP includes the Instruments Rating, but not the commercial.
Thank you very much and excuse me if I'm not always clear, it's not always easy to understand how things work in FAA regulation for a European pilot, a lot of different things!
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 15:21   #6 (permalink)
 
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I don't see why it should be a problem if it is a level D sim, but contact the training provider for confirmation.

Quote:
And if possible and I did it, what happens with the Instruments Rating?
You already hold a full FAA multi IR, that won't be an issue, no more exams for that - just the commercial written.

The New York FAA field office covers us non USA based pilots I believe. You could always ask them.

New York City FSDO Contact the Office

[quote][Hello 500Above, thank you very much for your message. So, if I understand correctly, if I do the full ATP check ride on the next recurrent training, the Type Rating I had obtained with my private licence will allow me to fly commercially the plane. That's ok for me./QUOTE]

Yes, that's correct providing you have the written ATP (can do it in FSI Le Bourget or Farnborough, England) and complete the hours requirements. Have you thought about simply putting it on your JAA/EASA licence also? There may well come a day when they make us do that anyway to fly in Europe, even on an N reg. Not so for Africa or the Middle East though!

Quote:
. They told me I would have to fly 50h for insurance with another pilot before flying alone, that's all.
If it is your first jet or if you are low time the FAA may impose a supervised operating limitation. This can be removed at any field office on production of your logbook and a letter from the chap supervising you for the 50 hours on type that the insurers/employer have imposed on you.

Last edited by 500 above; 28th Dec 2012 at 15:28.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 23:23   #7 (permalink)
 
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Many thanks again 500above.
It would be my first jet, well I did a B757 type rating some years ago but never flew on type due to a change of course in my career for family reasons... only the base training time, 45 minutes... Actually, i do not still have the american PPL nor the MultiEngine nor the Instruments rating. I was making a supposition because I'm trying to find the faster way to finish with the type rating inscribed on my ATP licence. I'm still wayting for the verification letter to arrive, I sent it approx 2 months ago.
So my plan is going to the USA, getting the private licence converted, passing the Instrument foreign pilot test. The multi engine is the big problem as I need it for the Type rating course as it is a twin engined jet. The thing is someone told me that I will get the multi engine on my FAA PPL because I have it on my European CPL licence. Well, what they've really said me is that the FAA will release me a temporary multi CPL. I'm receiving some contradictory information from different training centres, that's why I'm trying to find some light here in PPRuNe.
I'm starting to see the light... If I can get converted to a FAA PPL with the Multiengine rating my JAA CPL Multiengine licence, I will only have to pass the Instrument foreign pilot test to be ready for the type rating course. If the multiengine is not converted on my FAA PLL licence, I will have to do all the training to get the multiengine rating and this will delay me. The problem as I said is that the Type rating course is scheduled for february, and I'm affraid of not being able to be ready on time. And this would be, at last, my chance of flying a jet after nearly 8 years of flying propeller...

Thank you again for all!
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 09:33   #8 (permalink)
 
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They may issue you a restricted certificate based upon the JAA one you hold if it is valid and current. You will still need the foreign airmans IR written exam and to do a FCC radio licence to be legal to fly outside of the USA. I see no reason why they wouldn't issue you with the multi rating. However, it's not much different to you to do a CPL multi flight test to a PPL multi flight test if you had to. Two days should be fine.

Next sim recurrent event, simply pass the ATP exam and checkride - you then have an unrestricted US licence, or certificate as they name it. Any type ratings on a JAA licence should also appear on the FAA certificate based upon the JAA licence. You must also keep the JAA licence current to operate on the FAA certificate as it will be based upon that.

If, however your asked by an official on the ramp in darkest Africa why you have a restricted FAA licenc, make sure you have plenty of recent issue greenbacks!
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 16:06   #9 (permalink)
 
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Hello 500above, and of course thanks again for the time you are according me.

When you say "They may issue you a restricted certificate based upon the JAA one you hold if it is valid and current." and " I see no reason why they wouldn't issue you with the multi rating.", this multi rating would be on the FAA PPL licence, I understand? I ask this because one of the training centers told me I will be delivered a "temporary Multi CPL". Because, if I'm directly delivered a Multi CPL I could immediatly start working on the jet, and get the hours I still need on it, without keeping flying those months on my propeller plane...

Last edited by Victo; 29th Dec 2012 at 22:41.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 11:31   #10 (permalink)
 
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Hi Victo

A temporary (airmans) certificate is what you are issued by the FAA DPE after passing a flight test, or a first certificate from the FSDO perhaps. A certificate based upon your JAA/EASA licence is what you are after, I believe. It will say "issued on basis and valid only when accompanied by foreign pilots licence xxxxxxxx, all limitations and restrictions on foreign pilots licence xxxxxxxx apply". As you hold a JAA CPL/IR/Multi, this should translate to an FAA CPL/IR/Multi to which you will add the Citation type rating to. You will probably have to sit the foreign airmans IR exam.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 23:50   #11 (permalink)
 
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Victo, maybe I am missing something here, but if you hold a JAA Comm, once the FAA verification process is done, you will have a FAA PPL based on your JAA certificate. You then wish to do an FAA type rating. If you do the FAA Comm written, and maybe the IR and the type rating, which is done to FAA ATP standards, then you should end up with a FAA Commercial certificate, and therefore have the legal right to work on that type as long as it is N Reg, or you obtain a validation for M, VP etc. There is no reason why you cannot "raise" the FAA certificate to match the one you already hold from a foreign country by doing a type rating. Then, if you meet the requirements at your next recurrent, upgrade to the ATP.

I agree with 500 Above, Your certificate will say "based on," but it will also say US Test passed.

Last edited by B200Drvr; 30th Dec 2012 at 23:54.
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 09:04   #12 (permalink)
 
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Hello B200DRVR, thank you for your answer.
When you say " If you do the FAA Comm written, and maybe the IR and the type rating, which is done to FAA ATP standards, then you should end up with a FAA Commercial certificate" do you mean the written of the ATP? The problem is I lack some of the hours of the ATP.Or do you mean I can pass the Commercial written, the Instuments written and then do the checkride for BOTH during the Type Rating? Because I was told at the begining of all from a french guy who works as flight instructorin USA that this wasn't possible.
One more thing; This morning while searching info on the internet I found what follows: "This does not apply to ATP time builders because the ATP rating does not require you to land for it to be considered a cross country " (Air America Flight Center, LLC - The Leading Flight School and Aircraft Rental Center in Daytona Beach, Florida). Can anyone explain me this? Because my problem is I that have a lot of cross country flights, some of nearly 400nm (on a piston plane that's a lot) but always returning to the same airport where I had taken off. If the ATP rating does not require me to land in an airport more than 50nm away from the takeoff point to log it as cross country flight, how do I demonstrate that time?



500above, thank you for your all your answers. I'm a little ashamed ot taking so much of your time. I understand now the differences. I've sent a mail to the FAA from their webpage, specifying my type of licence, and current ratings, to see what kind of temporary certificate they would deliver me.
When they say "temporary" is it because it only is current while the associated foreign licence is current, or is it because they specify a duration? If the last, on what basis do they specify the duration?And can those temporary certificates be used to work?
Bye, and again, thanks...

Last edited by Victo; 31st Dec 2012 at 09:05.
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 09:23   #13 (permalink)
 
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Sorry to post one after the other, but i'm searching info on the cross country time and this looks true, the FAA ATP counts as cross country even if I didn't land on an airport at more than 50NM. I have at least 1000h of this kind of flights, so If I can demonstrate them I have no problem for the ATP requirements,(only miss some night hours). Can you tell me how do you demonstrate the flight was cross country without that landing on another airport?
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 11:12   #14 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
When they say "temporary" is it because it only is current while the associated foreign licence is current, or is it because they specify a duration? If the last, on what basis do they specify the duration?And can those temporary certificates be used to work?
Hi Victo

Temporary literally means temporary - they will issue this on a typewriter immediately after passing the flight test. It's valid for an indefinite period whilst the FAA make and ship your new plastic credit card style certificate.

Post 83-91 should interest you. It indeed looks as though the FAA will indeed now only give you a PPL certificate based upon the JAA CPL. This does mean you cannot work with this.

JAA/CAA/CASA/ICAO conversion to FAA

Actions for you:

Contact FSDO to clarify.

Contact training centre to verify they can do a commercial checkride in sim.

Obtain FCC radio licence to fly N reg outside of USA.

Obtain class 1 medical. (Can be done in Europe, saves time)

Get Irvin Gleim Commercial/Instrument pilots study material, PTS, AIM etc.
Arrive in USA early, get training centre tobook you in for Commercial and Instrument written exams locally. Or do them at FSI Paris, save time and hassle?

You would come out of this with an unrestricted (not based on a foreign licence) FAA Commercial, Multi, IR w Citation type rating and could legally work immediately.
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 13:32   #15 (permalink)
 
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Hi 500above,
Yes, all looks like I can only be given a PPL in exchange of my CPL. So the way you say would be the easier, thank you for the steps, they are very useful to me. But now that it looks that I meet the cross country requirements, the only thing between me and the ATP are approx 70h night flying, and 25 of those hours can be changed against 25 full stop landings. So I'm wondering if it's not going to be cheaper and quicker to buy those hours in the USA. Even more as it seems that the FAA allows two pilots to log the flight hour as pic in single pilot planes. So if a found another "timebuilder", paying 40 hours on a C152 I can go direct for the ATP. Because on my present job I nearly never fly night time so I can be 5 years to log those 70h. Well, I have to read carefully all the details for loging night time for the ATP purpose.
Returning to the crosscountry time, can anyone tell me how do you demonstrate a flight has been cross country without landing in another airport? Logging it as "crosscountry" is enough?
And with an ATP, for working outside of the USA would I also need a FCC commercial radio licence? Or this is only for the Commercial?
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 13:58   #16 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
And with an ATP, for working outside of the USA would I also need a FCC commercial radio licence? Or this is only for the Commercial?
You'll need it for any certificate flying outside the US.

Logging it as X-C should suffice.

Be wary of logging P1 time that way. Certain criteria (not 100% sure, check) has to be met, such as a safety pilot flying with a pilot logging simulated IFR time. As such, you without an FAA IFR rating, cold only log it as safety pilot time.

I don't have the FAR-AIM to hand, but you need to check whether you can use some of the level D simulator time as night hours for the issue of an ATP. Most of the sim sessions will be simulated night/IFR.

"A private or commercial pilot may log PIC time when "acting as pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the - - - - regulations under which the flight is conducted". [61.51 (e)(1)(ii)]
Normally, a safety pilot, required by regulations, who scans for traffic for a pilot flying under simulated instrument conditions is not pilot-in-command and thus logs second-in-command. However, if the two pilots agree that the safety pilot is designated pilot-in-command, the safety pilot/pilot-in-command may log PIC since he is the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft. The pilot flying is "sole manipulator of the controls for which the pilot is rated"" and may also log PIC. Therefore, two private pilots may log PIC under these conditions. However, the safety pilot/pilot-in- command must realize that anything that occurs during the flight is his responsibility. "

"However, two pilots may not simultaneously log PIC when one pilot is sole manipulator of the controls and the other is acting as pilot-in-command if the regulations governing the flight do not require more than one pilot.
"An airline transport pilot may log as PIC time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport certificate." [61.51 (e)(2)] Previous regulations allowed a situation where three pilot (one an ATP) could log PIC simultaneously when conducting an operation which did not require an airline transport pilot. This is no longer allowed under the August 1997 revision."

X/C

"There are multiple definitions of cross-country time in 14 C.F.R. 61.1 (b)(3), and these definitions apply differently based on how the cross-country time is being used to meet aeronautical experience requirements. Section 61. 1(b)(3)(i), in relevant part, states the general definition of cross-country time as time acquired during flight conducted in an aircraft, by a person who holds a pilot certificate, that includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure, and that involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point. Section 61.1 (b)(3)(ii), in relevant part, defines cross-country time for the purposes of meeting the aeronautical experience for a private pilot certificate, a commercial pilot certificate, an instrument rating, or for the exercise of recreational pilot privileges. For these purposes, cross-country time is time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nm from the original point of departure and that involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point. Section 61.1(b)(3)(vi), in relevant part, defines cross-country time for the purposes of meeting the aeronautical experience for an airline transport pilot certificate. For this purpose, cross-country time is time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nm from the original point of departure and that involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems. Section 61. 1(b)(3)(v), in relevant part, defines cross-country time for the purposes of meeting the aeronautical experience for any pilot..."

So, it would appear at first glance under the FAA you need 500 hours (ATP) x/c time which doen not include a landing at an airfield more than 50NM straight line distance etc. for an ATP but does for a CPL.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...is%20Glenn.pdf

Last edited by 500 above; 31st Dec 2012 at 14:24.
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 15:37   #17 (permalink)
 
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By the way, have you an American Visa? Is France part of the visa waiver programme? Some schools say you do, some don't but generally if you are from a visa waiver country, you shouldn't need one.

Have you started the TSA training approval process? Fingerprinting, etc. This will take months...

https://www.flightschoolcandidates.g...e=c&section=WN

Flight School: Getting a Student Foreign Visa | Flying Magazine

M1 Visa or no Visa and SEVIS approved schools in the USA [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

VISA requirement for Type rating course? [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Nationals of VWP countries* must meet the guidelines listed in the section above in order to seek admission to the United States under the Visa Waiver Program. Travelers who do not meet these guidelines must apply for a visa.

A visa must be requested if the traveler:

Wants to remain in the United States for longer than 90 days, or envisions that they may wish to change their status (from tourism to student, etc.) once in the United States;
Wants to work or study in the United States, travel as a working foreign media representative, come to the United States for other purposes not allowed on a visitor visa, or intends to immigrate to the United States;
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Is a national of one of the VWP countries* not listed above AND DOES NOT have a machine-readable passport (MRP)(depending on the date the MRP was issued, renewed, or extended, it may also need to contain a digital photograph or an integrated electronic chip);
Intends to travel by private aircraft or other non-VWP approved air or sea carriers to the United States. Click here to see the approved carriers list;
Has a criminal record or other condition making them ineligible for a visa (see Classes of Aliens Ineligible for Visas).
Has been refused admission to the United States before, or did not comply with the conditions of previous VWP admissions (90 days or less stay for tourism or business, etc.).

Visa Waiver Program (VWP)

Last edited by 500 above; 31st Dec 2012 at 15:42.
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Old 1st Jan 2013, 03:59   #18 (permalink)
 
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If you hold a JAR commercial with SEL and MEL, the FAA will issue you a private with SEL and MEL under 61.75. If you hold the B757 type on it I think they'll add the type rating. We used to issue commercials under 61.75 but have not done that since 1997. But there there are still some 61.75 commercial certificates floating around. If you complete the instrument pilot knowledge test or the foreign pilot instrument knowledge test you'll be granted instrument privileges. The Inspector issuing the certificate will remind you that you still a flight review with an instructor before flying on your FAA certificate.

There's no problem adding a type to to a commercial certificate. You are held to ATP standards during a type ride so the type will rise to the ATP level when you complete an ATP checkride, even if the check is done in a PA-34. The problem is issuing an initial commercial and type in the same checkride. The FAA commercial certificate is mainly a VFR checkride. You must do short field and soft field TO & landings, power off 180 landings, Lazy 8s and Chandelles and ground reference manuvers. Those aren't in the profiles for most jets and I don't think many sims are set up for them.

The no-landing clause was put in for military pilots who would launch on a mission, fly for hours and return to base. But civilian pilots can use it. Just log it in the X-C column. If the Inspector notices you departed ABC and returned to ABC after 3 hours just be ready to say we flew to XYZ and turned around.

Be careful about two private pilots logging PIC. About the only time two private pilots can log time together is while one is under the hood. The regulation says two pilots must be required by the aircraft certification (can't think of any SEL that applies to) or the regulation being operated under. US regs require a safety pilot while a pilot is under the hood. But there is guidance from the FAA that the safety pilot can only log that time while the other pilot is under the hood. So if it takes 15 minutes to taxi out, TO and put the hood on, the safety pilot can't count that time. Same thing at the destination, if he pulls the hood off to land and taxi in, that time can't be counted. There's also guidance from our friends that says the safety pilot can't count the time as X-C time even if they land 80 miles away. I have no idea why.
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Old 1st Jan 2013, 14:50   #19 (permalink)
 
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Hello 500Above and MarkerInbound. Happy 2013, hope the best for you this year.
I want to thank you for all this quantity of information you are providing me, i would never have expected to be so helped, you don't even let me time to look info on the internet, when I find something and come here with the doubt there's already another reply with the answer.
The big question I do myself now, is, what do I have to do with my logbook before starting all this american adventure? Because, for example, the JAA logbook has nowhere to log CrossCountry time, in fact I never heard of the concept of this "cross country time" before starting with all this. Do I have to buy an FAA logbook and start to fulfill it with the info on my JAA logbookk from the begining? But if I do so, what happens with the signatures of the instructors, examiners, stamps of training centres that I have on my old lokbook? Or is it enough to add X-C time in the Remarks column of my actual book?

Only logging the time that I'm 100% sure I went 50NM off from my take off point I have at least 900h crosscountry hours, this without counting flights I'm pretty sure that I could log as XC but i won't. It's easy to know for me with the hour of take off and the type of aircraft flown.. And for those hours I'm sure, it was always the same route, so I won't have any problem to tell the examiner where I flew. Thank you 500above for the three definitions of XC time, really nice from you.
I haven't started the TSA process, I'm gonna look it right now, and for the visa, as you say, I read that for time building I didn't need anything if I stayed less than 90 days than is much longer than I need.

For the shared night flight, you're right, it won't be easy to do it, with the "on the hood" pilot thing, so I'm preparing myself to pay for all the hours I need, and I'm gonna try the guy who employs me pays that and after takes it from my salary. The thing is I will have to pass the Foreign Pilot Instruments test, because I read that as the PPL licence I will be given is based on my JAA CPL licence, not having the "night visual" rating on it I can't fly night visual in the USA, so I'll have to do night ifr after passsing the IFP. What a pitty to go to the US flying and only doing it at night!

500Above, I'm going to look for the info you mention on the FAR-AIM, because if some of the hours did on the B757sim at simulated night time could count as "real" night time, it would be money saved. I've read that some sim time can count for the 100 ifr hours, but I already have those, so I don't need to count the sim ones.

Well, thanks again guys, have a nice day!
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Old 1st Jan 2013, 20:22   #20 (permalink)
 
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When I went to do my licences in the US I used a lot of time logged in Europe to meet the requirements. For the cross-country time I created a spreadheet with all of the XC flights in and included the distance flown to demonstrate that they met the >50NM requirement.

While I was out there I ended up adding all of my flights to the spreadsheet and then putting an analysis in which showed how I met the requirements of each of the qualifications I was being tested for - I even added colour coding so that the examiner could easily cross-check.

In the US it is the examiner's responsibility to ensure that you meet all of the requirements before you take the check-ride as they issue you with the licence at the end of the test. The examiners were delighted that I had reduced their workload by providing all the info summarised for them (one even told me that I was the first Commercial candidate in a month who had satisfied all the requirements before presenting himslef for the check ride). Needless to say it got things off to a good start.

Anyway - you don't need to transfer everything in to a new logbook, but providing a summary in a format which is useful to the examiner will really work for you.
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