M1 Visa or no Visa and SEVIS approved schools in the USA

[B2N2]

Despite all the replies given here by a lot of knowledgeable people including SoCal and myself there is still a lot of confusion about the M1 visa and which schools can accept non US students.

* For all training that leads to the issuance of a certificate or rating a M1 visa is required.
Regardless if it is more or less then 18hrs/week. That's a stubborn myth.

* Only SEVIS approved schools can issue the I-20 which is the application form for the visa. Schools DO NOT issue visa, the US embassy/consulate does

As a foreigner (= not a US citizen or Green Card holder) you can only train at a SEVIS approved school.
Here is a link to a list of SEVIS approved schools by state.
Not only aviation you can find all schools here that can accept foreign students. If the flight school you intend to use is not listed here ask them if they have a different business name. If not do not go there regardless of what the school might claim.

No SEVIS approval no foreign students, it's that simple.
International Student and Exchange Visitor Program (SEVP) (http://www.ice.gov/sevis/map/approvedschoolsmap.htm)

[Prophead]

Thank you both for clearing that up, and replying to my earlier thread.

[nh2301]

Training of less than 18 hours per week will not qualify for a M1 visa. You must undertake a full time course of study.

Not all training requires TSA approval. Excluding larger airplanes, only the initial FAA certificate, initial instrument rating and initial multiengine certificate require TSA approval. This approval is required for any training conducted toward one of these events anywhere in the world.

For example, a FAA certified private pilot (ASEL) traveling to the US on holiday, who wishes to add a seaplane rating, would require neither a visa or TSA approval.
A certified commercial pilot traveling to the US to train for a flight instructor certificate would require a visa but not TSA approval. A student pilot travelling to the US to get a private pilots certificate would require both visa and TSA approval.

[nh2301]

I probably didn't state that clearly enough. You are absolutely right that trying to dodge the rules by saying 'I'm going to do less than 18 hours per week' won't work. If your course of training could be completed as a full time course of study, then you can reasonably expect to do so, and would need a visa regardless. However, if your training is less than 18 hours in total then it would have to be incidental and that seaplane rating or night training (for a UK PPL) would be good examples. Attendance at a full time course of study is mandatory for visa issuance, and failure to attend would leave you out of status.

Imagine if you will, the second week of your month long holiday. You got your seaplane training in Florida the first weekend, and now you're touring around the US having a great time. You find yourself staying overnight in Arizona, and while driving to the hotel get stopped at an immigration checkpoint. (This happened to me a few years ago). Try explaining to the officer why you are registered as a full time student at a school in Florida and a week after entering the country you're a thousand miles away.

I don't mean to suggest you can get away without a visa when you should have one, only to state that when you don't need one you shouldn't have one and are similarly in danger of falling out of status.

And don't trust flight schools. Ever.

[japanam]

B2N2

Not to be rude or anything, but do you have any official documentation that supports what you claim? Especially in regards to training for less than 18 hours / week under the visa waiver program? Many people, including myself, have been trying to get "official" paperwork from UCIS, but this whole problem seems to fall under the "gray" area of visa laws. No body wants to release any official paperwork stating the limits of the law clearly.

Like I said, if you have something, I would surely appreciate you sharing it with everyone! We need facts on this, not opinions on how one might perceive the law.

[B2N2]

Not to be rude or anything No offense taken Japanam, you have a very legitimate, interesting and difficult question.

My original post was mainly intended for people interested in doing a non stop full time course of training, be it PPL, Instrument rating, Commercial or a zero-Hero career training package.
It was meant for their benefit; as in can I train at XYZ school? Yes you can or no you can't save yourself the trouble and look up schools on the SEVIS website kind of post.

I am not a Visa attorney, far from it; I've just worked with foreign students for the last 8 years.

I will try and explain why your question is so difficult to answer
The M1 visa is NOT a flight training specific visa, hence the gray area's.
It is originally intended to be a student visa for vocational or non-academic studies.

The M1 visa is a nonimmigrant visa for international students who wish to pursue a course of study that is not principally academic in nature at an established vocational or other recognized nonacademic institution such as a post secondary vocational or business school
Source: M1 Visa - Easily Apply Online - Study in Vocational Institutions in the US (http://usimmigration.visapro.com/M1-Student-Visa.asp#Requirements)

After the events of 9-11 it was decided that flight students required a visa.
I assume that the quickest way to do this was to "house" flight students under a more or less convenient visa umbrella, the non-academic or M1 visa.
So this is a common misconception that the M1 ONLY applies to flight training, it doesn't.
Hence the confusion that comes with it;
Example: If attend English language school one day a week during a recreational visit to the USA you do not qualify or need an M1 visa.
However, if attending language school is the PRIMARY reason for coming to the USA it is assumed that you do a full course of training and you need a visa.

Requirements for the M1 Visa

To qualify for a student visa, you must prove that:

A. You have successfully completed a course of study normally required for enrollment

B. You have been accepted for a full course of study by a vocational institution approved by the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS). The institution must send you a Form I-20M-N, certificate of eligibility for nonimmigrant (M1) student status for vocational students

C. You are sufficiently proficient in English to pursue the intended course of study, or the school you intend to attend has made special arrangements to teach you the English language

D. You have sufficient funds to cover the first year of study, and access to sufficient funds to cover subsequent years

E. You have a permanent residence in your home country, which you do not intend to abandon

F. You intend to depart the U.S. upon completion of the course of study. You may establish this by presenting evidence of economic, social and/or family ties in your homeland sufficient to induce you to leave the U.S. upon completion of studies

G. Your proposed education in the U.S. would be useful in your homeland, and therefore induce you to leave the U.S. upon completion of studies

I'm sorry it will be a lot of "cut and paste":



Update to Archived Story - TSA Clarifies Rules on Visa Permitted for Alien Pilots in Training

For information regarding flight training for non-U.S. citizens, please refer to the TSA Alien Flight Student Program at www.flightschoolcandidates.gov.

There is an extensive FAQ section to reference program regulations and requirements, as well as contact information for any further questions.

TSA Clarifies Rules on Visa Permitted for Alien Pilots in Training
March 28, 2005 - The Transportation Security Administration this week clarified its position with regard to the status of aliens permitted to receive flight training in the United States. In response to issues raised by NAFI executive director Rusty Sachs and government relations specialist Doug Macnair during a visit to TSA in January, TSA attorney Monty Thompson provided guidelines to determine the permitted visa status for alien pilots seeking flight training.

On Friday, April 12, 2002, the Department of Justice (DOJ) issued an Interim rule through the Federal Register (Vol. 67, No.71) proposing to amend 8 CFR Parts 214 and 248. This amendment requires a change of status from any non-immigrant visitor visa (B-1 or B-2) to a student visa (F-1 of M-1) prior to pursuing a course of study.

Here is the order of logic on how the INS code relates to the flight-training rule:

NO flight training under Category 1, 2, or 3 (49 CFR 1552.3) should be conducted for ANY alien who has entered the U.S. in B-1 or B-2 (visitor's) status. It is a violation of the status under which the non-immigrant visitor entered the U.S.

A change of status to M-1 or F-1 is permitted once the candidate has entered the US, only if the candidate applies prior to enrolling in and attending a flight-training course.

Only FAA Certificated Part 141 and/or 142 schools approved and participating in SEVIS program are authorized to issue an I-20 form to a prospective student upon enrollment into a course; the prospective student must request the change of status and receive the subsequent Student Visa.

FAA Part 61 schools and independent flight instructors MAY train a foreign national, if that alien is (a) a Legal Permanent Resident or in a work status (H-type visa) with extended stay privileges or (b) a refugee in Asylum status with appropriate DHS documentation.

FAA Part 61 schools and independent flight instructors MAY train a foreign national on an F-1 (academic visa) provided that the student is enrolled and attending the college or university as shown on the F-1 and the student has notified SEVIS of the additional training being received at a non-SEVIS approved school.

NOTE: All prospective foreign national (alien) flight training candidates must register and submit information to the TSA's Alien Flight Student Program (AFSP), regardless of Visa status.

Source: Update to Archived Story - TSA Clarifies Rules on Visa Permitted for Alien Pilots in Training (http://www.nafinet.org/news.aspx?id=370)
Now who needs TSA approval?
Who must participate in the Alien Flight Student Program?

Persons seeking flight training must submit a request if they are not citizens or nationals of the U.S. and:

* They wish to receive flight training in the U.S. or its territories, regardless of whether training will lead to an FAA certificate or type rating; and/or
* They wish to receive flight training from an FAA-certificated facility, provider, or instructor that could lead to an FAA rating whether in the U.S. or abroad.


Source: https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/afsp2/?acct_type=c&section=FQ

Category 3 Clarification - For flight training in the operation of aircraft with a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 lbs. or less, Candidates must obtain AFSP approval for the following three training events:

* Initial airman's certificate, including a private, recreational, or sport pilot certificate.
-- If a private and/or commercial license is the candidate's initial FAA license, it is considered an initial airman's certificate and is not exempt.
* Instrument Rating (IR)
* Multi-Engine Rating (MEL)

Each of these three events requires a separate training request.

All other training events on aircraft with MTOW of 12,500 lbs. or less are exempt from AFSP regulations, including Commercial Pilot License (CPL), Airline Transport Pilot License (ATPL), and Certified Flight Instructor (CFI). These events are exempt only if the candidate holds an FAA stand-alone pilot certificate

Ultralight Aircraft - Flight training in the operation of airships, balloons, and gliders are exempted from the TSA security threat assessment.

Demonstration and familiarization flights - Demonstration flights for marketing purposes, and familiarization flights (also called "intro" or "discovery" flights) are also exempted from the TSA security threat assessment.

So this is all about TSA approval and threat assesment, what about the visa?

What happens if I take flight training without having the proper visa?

AFSP may cancel an applicant's flight training request if AFSP becomes aware the candidate is intending to take flight training without the appropriate immigration status. If you have questions about a cancelled request, you may call AFSP at (571) 227-4544.

NOTE: Lawful Permanent Residents (LPRs) of the United States do not require a visa.

So the appropriate Immigration status for flight training is holding a visa, in most cases an M1.

Every website I've seen mentions specifically a "full time course of training".
It now depends on the definition of a full course vs a part time course.
From the US Immigration website:
If you wish to pursue full-time academic or vocational studies in the United States you may be eligible for one of two nonimmigrant student categories the “F” category is for academic students and “M” is for vocational students
and:
If you would like to study as a full-time student in the United States, you will need a student visa. There are two nonimmigrant visa categories for persons wishing to study in the United States. These visas are commonly known as the F and M visas.

You may enter in the F-1 or M-1 visa category provided you meet the following criteria:

* You must be enrolled in an "academic" educational program, a language-training program, or a vocational program
* Your school must be approved by USCIS
* You must be enrolled as a full-time student at the institution
* You must be proficient in English or be enrolled in courses leading to English proficiency
* You must have sufficient funds available for self-support during the entire proposed course of study
* You must maintain a residence abroad which he/she has no intention of giving up.

This leads you to believe that you only qualify for an M1 visa for flight training if you pursue it full time.
We are getting closer and closer:

F-1 Student Visa Eligibility Requirements: An applicant for a United States student visa must come to the United States to pursue an academic program in an institution recognized by the United States government. The foreign citizen must have a valid educational purpose for coming to the United States and be a full time student. It is not possible to be a part-time student on an F-1 Visa. The student can stay in the United States for as long as he/she is enrolled in school. The F-1 student visa is normally issued at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate in the student’s home country.
Source: https://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/f1-student-visa.html

And finally for the M1 visa:

M1 Student Visa Requirements
You cannot enter as an M1 to just study "generally"; your program must have a goal and you must be involved in a "full course of study". A full course of study means study in a community or junior college, with at least 12 semester or quarter hours. It must be in a school where anyone attending for at least 12 semester or quarter hours is charged full tuition, or considered full-time. The only exception is where you need a smaller course-load to complete your course of study. It can also mean study at a post secondary vocational or business school which grants Associate or other degrees. Alternatively, if a school can demonstrate that its credits are, or have been, accepted unconditionally by at least 3 institutions of higher learning it can qualify. If that is not possible, study in a vocational or nonacademic curriculum, certified by a DSO to require at least 18 hours of weekly attendance or at least 22 clock hours a week (if most of your studies are in a shop or lab). If that is not possible, the last option is study in a vocational or nonacademic high school curriculum which is certified by a DSO to require class attendance for not less than the minimum required for normal progress towards graduation.

Source: M1 Student Visa - M1 Visa Immigration (http://www.internationalstudent.com/immigration/m1-student-visa.shtml)

So to summarize:

* For flight training that leads to the issuance of a certificate you need a visa
* TSA threat assessment is required and TSA requires a visa
* Visa options are F1 (combined with academic studies), J1 and M1
* Minimum course load on an M1 visa is 18 hrs a week of ground school or flight training in our case
* If you do less then 18 hrs you are out of status and elligible for removal
* If your entire course of training is less then 18 hrs you need to do whatever is required for graduation eg a seaplane rating added to a FAA piggyback based on a foreign license without holding a full FAA certificate.

I think I've covered a lot, if you still have questions feel free. :ok:

[Jwscud]

I'm trying to get all my planning for my paperwork done at the moment; the TSA verification programme has an entry for any US Visas held. I currently hold a C1/D1 Visa (for my day job) but will be getting an M1 for my flight training. Do I have to have the M1 before applying for TSA clearance or can I conduct both applications in parallel?

I hope having the C1/D1 doesn't muddy the waters at the TSA, it not having the required privileges to stay and conduct flight training.

[B2N2]

My disclaimer:
I am not a Visa attorney, far from it
I am pretty sure you can do TSA and the M1 at the same time.
The C1/D1 will not be an issue. It just identifies you as a visa holder and since they have a history on you it should be even easier.

[Jwscud]

I thought so - I've got in touch with them. I was just hoping somebody might know the answer beforehand to save me wading through officialdom.

[norgab]

Great thread, thanks!


How do they define "academic"?

I got my CPL just before my norwegian school went bankrupt in feb. Now i want to go back to do ME, CFIs and hopefully get a F-1 so i can gain hours instructing. Since there might be some grey areas here and there, i am optimistic .

[MartinCh]

norgab,
you don't qualify for the aviation post-J1 F1 by any standards (although they may differ a bit between schools as I've researched). You can do academic, ie Associate degree and higher. If it's one of the aviation management at local community college and the school where you'd like to go is the practical flying provider for their programme, you could legally work part time during term and unlimited hours during vacations. You'd get some credit for FAA certs and ground you already have, but it'd not be cheap. You can do the OPT (which is the FT work 'internship' on F1 visa) after one academic year of study, even if the programme itself is two years.

The F1 which is a replacement for J1, then, the brokered deal likened the FAA ground to the academic (far-fetched, but it's reality now), so the students could still get the work visa after the ab-initio or PPL only students.

Clearer now? :)

[Peter PanPan]

Some of the members that have posted here seem to really know this topic well and by no means I am pretending here to make a significant contribution to this debate, but I just wanted to quote the ESTA website on this Warning message:

WARNING: If upon application for admission to the United States at a port of entry you are admitted under the Visa Waiver Program by a US Customs and Border Protection Officer, you may not accept unauthorized employment; or attend school; or represent the foreign information media during your visit under the program. You may not apply for: 1) a change of nonimmigrant status, 2) an extension of stay, or 3) adjustment of status to temporary or permanent resident, unless eligible under section 245(c)(4) of the Immigration and Nationality Act. Violation of these terms will subject you to REMOVAL.

For those of us that thought they could get additional ratings under VWP...

[eagleflier]

NO flight training under Category 1, 2, or 3 (49 CFR 1552.3) should be conducted for ANY alien who has entered the U.S. in B-1 or B-2 (visitor's) status. It is a violation of the status under which the non-immigrant visitor entered the U.S.

Thanks for the heads up. I'm in the process of getting a visa to the US to get a 737 initial TR (Category 1) and was thinking I could get a B-1 B-2 visa and get away with it.:=
Now i know better. Very useful thread this is:ok:

[Peter PanPan]

Good point So Cal ;) Thanks for reminding us of that.

[GKaplan]

Thanks for the long post B2N2, but I am still a bit confused on a few points even after a few hours browsing/searching the forum;)
* For flight training that leads to the issuance of a certificate you need a visa
* TSA threat assessment is required and TSA requires a visa
Am I right in understanding that if you are getting a certificate you must have a visa even if you don't need TSA (if you're within the exemptions of category3)?

* If your entire course of training is less then 18 hrs you need to do whatever is required for graduation eg a seaplane rating added to a FAA piggyback based on a foreign license without holding a full FAA certificate. No TSA here, but visa?

---
My personal case:
I hold a JAA ATPL/IR(H) meeting the requirements of §61.153(d)(3) to get an FAA ATP.
I only need a checkride, however it may be useful to do a few dual hours to "get ready" for the test.

So basically I will be in the US for a few weeks, do 4-5 dual hours, take the practical test and head back home.
Primary reason for my stay won't be the flights but holidays, I intend to spend 4-5 days flying in the middle of a 3-4 weeks vacation.

TSA assessment?
I think I need it because even though I have an FAA PPL(H), it's been issued under §61.75 and isn't a "stand-alone pilot certificate" and thus doesn't count in the exemptions, right?

Visa?
That's where I'm really confused.
If required the most pertinent seems to be the M-1, but full course? full-time student?
This leads you to believe that you only qualify for an M1 visa for flight training if you pursue it full time.
Agree with that, so what about me? :sad:
Unless I call my dual hours "hours building" and the test a test (ie not training):E

Cheers

[B2N2]

G, you already hold an ICAO ATP(H)
Your skills will not markedly improve by douing an FAA ATP (H) check ride,
The ATP (fixed wing or rotorcraft) is experience based and no sign off is required from a CFI for the initial check ride.
You don't need TSA threat asessment either for the same reason.
You are moving sideways if you will from JAA ATP to FAA ATP, you do not become more or less of a threat.

[GKaplan]

I agree with what you say about the TSA assessment, however the AFSP website says
All other training events (other than initial certificate, IR or MEL) on aircraft with MTOW of 12,500 lbs. or less are exempt from AFSP regulations, including Commercial Pilot License (CPL), Airline Transport Pilot License (ATPL), and Certified Flight Instructor (CFI). These events are exempt only if the candidate holds an FAA stand-alone pilot certificate.
But it's not a big deal anyway, and I will contact them to argue my case.;)

The main hassle is the visa.
no sign off is required from a CFI for the initial check ride
Shall I understand that I don't need a visa because no training is formally required?
So basically if I fly with an instructor without him signing anything, it would be no different than me flying with him just as a "refresher" or as some instruction on the type (since I already hold an FAA PPL).

Thanks :ok:

[GKaplan]

I just realized...

TSA applies to training events.
If in my case we consider that no formal training is required, then the TSA assessment becomes irrelevant?
:D

[B2N2]

Yes, unless you fail on your first attempt.
You now need training from an Authorized Instructor in the deficient area's and you require a sign off from the Instructor.
This requires a visa.

[GKaplan]

What was said is a bit of a technicality : if no CFI has to sign you off, are the hours flown considered to be "training"?

If the answer is no, then no visa, no TSA.

As far as the TSA is concerned I agree with you, a 61.75 certificate doesn't count. The argument here is about the training.
The AFSP is very clear that it is intended for "Persons seeking flight training", that you "must not commence training" before assessment and that it applies to training events.
What if there's no training to be started...

Same for the visa.
At the moment I am allowed to go to any flight school and do dual hours to familiarize myself on a type I may choose to rent...
Is a "stand-alone" checkride a training event? Very unlikely...

Technicality or interpretation, I'll seek official advice anyway;)

[GKaplan]

The FAA examiner will check you have the email confirming permission and that the training provider listed is the same as the one who signed you off for your flight test.
training provider? signed off? ...sorry no... but carrying on ;)


I agree with everything you say about an initial certificate,
however I do make the difference between "the initial issuance of a certificate" and "seeking training for the initial issuance of a certificate".

That would be more consistent with the thinking behind the requirements of a threat assessment for initial license, instrument rating, and MEL (see TSA's interpretation of flight training (https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/TSA-2004-19147-0337.pdf) and the "training that substantially enhance piloting skills")

To be honest and although they are clear about it, they should include a 61.75 license in the exemptions because the piloting skills are already there (otherwise they shouldn't have issued the license!).
When you mention folks in my situation, the argument should be in favor of the exemption from the TSA assessment: ATP+5000 hours, my skills aren't going to be substantially enhanced by an other certificate :E

It's schyzophrenic to do otherwise after their explanations, but hey they would miss a few fees...$$$$$ That's all that counts in the end:E

[GKaplan]

As I said previously I'll seek official advice on the matter.

Shall let you know ;)

[Clintonb]

Thanks for this great post. Has shed more light on the topic. been looking through the listed schools is it possible for there to be other schools that aren't list with SEVIS that can still be approved? I'm looking into European Flight Training EFT a school in Fort Pierce, Florida and i see they are not on the SEVIS list. could they be approved by someone else???

[rossauk]

This is a great post thanks guys for all the information.
I do have one question. I'm wanting to do my FAA HCPL license and Instructors from scratch probably in Florida with Bristow, i'm from the UK and was wondering, would I be able to do an additional college course that would give me a visa that allowed me to work whilst I was doing my flying training? Would I be taking on to much to do this? I know you cant work whilst starting your Heli training.
Thanks
Rossco

[SunnyDayInWiltshire]

This is a very comprehensive thread, but sadly I'm still confused.

I'm UK based, visiting the US for a conference and wondered about taking the 5 hour night rating, which might extend my stay by a day or two. It would also allow me to suss out the flight school/situation there for future potential trips.

I can't afford any risk of future travel to the US (I go there a lot on business, always for a few days with Visa Waiver), so must get this right.

Am I correct in thinking I just need the TSA approval, which the immigration officer will probably be able to see when I enter the country? It's about 6 weeks till I travel, so an M1 might just be possible to get, but seems somewhat excessive for just a few hours training.

[SunnyDayInWiltshire]

SoCal - Thanks for the quick reply. Yes, my trip is to Orlando, so was thinking of one of the JAR recognised flight schools there.

I've not yet got my PPL license - up to 45 hours now but not sat the GST. It's extremely unlikely I would have the license/paperwork completed before my trip. I understand that you can do the night rating either before or after gaining the PPL, so thought this would fit either way.

Main reasons for considering this option are:
a) My home airfield doesn't have lighting, so will have to do this elsewhere anyway
b) Weather in November likely to cause fewer cancellations
c) Any flying in another country would broaden my experience

Will check this up with the USCIS and the flight school to ensure I have this in writing.

[GKaplan]

An update on my scenario Going direct to the ATP practical exam.

1 - TSA threat assessment:

I wrote to the TSA ([email protected]) explaining the scenario in details, the answer came as quick as short:
Good Morning,
You do have to go through TSA.

I'm seeking my first stand-alone FAA certificate, Fair enough ;)


2 - Visa (emailed Dept of State for info)

I copy this in extenso so you can appreciate that I did mention (more than once!) the fact I wanted to take a test for the issuance of a certificate.

Question:
I am a professional pilot in the UK and while on holiday in the US I would like to take a test for the issuance of an FAA flying certificate.
My qualifications and previous experience allow me to take the practical test without any formal training.
During my stay (around 3 weeks) I plan to do 4 or 5 hours of recurrent training and preparation flights before taking the practical exam.
I won't require any sign off from an instructor to take the test, and the whole process should take no more than a week.
As I don't need to have an endorsement from an authorized instructor prior to my test, could you please confirm whether I need an M-1 visa to take this test?

Answer:
U.S. immigration law stipulates that foreign nationals planning to enter the United States primarily for tourism, who would like to engage in an incidental, vocational/nonacademic, short course of study (18 hours per week or less) while here may do so on a B-2 tourist visa.

[GKaplan]

TSA was always pretty much a certainty as they clearly state "for the initial issue of any FAA certificate". Agree with you (however as discussed previously, $$ make more sense than logic).
What they are telling you however is that you specifically need to get a visa - the B2.No, they're telling that I may engage in a short course of study on a tourist visa. "specifically need to get" is your interpretation.

Wouldn't it make sense that I was given the short answer that applies to all, regardless of citizenship?
And that "if however you're a national of a VWP participating country and meet the requirements ....blah blah...you get the idea"?

They do NOT say you can enter on the VWP.They do not say I can't, do they?
A B2 visa is required for those individuals who are NOT eligible for the VWP.Correct sentence - similar to "those individuals who are eligible for the VWP don't require a B-2 visa".

Agree with everything you say about restrictions on the VWP (did read post #19 of this thread) and visa not guaranteeing entry. And I personally am eligible, thank you (I have been visiting the US every other year for the past 10 years).

--------
Oh wait... just got the following:

Question (sent with the full inquiry in the body of the message, before somebody argues that they're giving a restricted answer due to lack of information...):
May I engage in the short course of study I mentioned using the Visa Waiver Program, or shall I specifically apply for a B-2 tourist visa?

Answer:
Yes, this can be done under the auspices of the Visa Waiver Program (VWP) as well.

;)

[GKaplan]

On the website travel.state.gov and the student visa information page:
If you have additional inquiries about F or M student visas/J-1 exchange visitor visas, please email our Student/Exchange Visitor Visa Center at: fmjvisas (at) state.gov (pprune wouldn't accept the full email syntax).

Each time answered in 24 hours :ok:

[VFR Transit]

Hi All

I am planning to go for a holiday as my primary vist to the USA and while there is would like to investigate and maybe complete a JAA MEP Class Rating, having spoken to a certain school they said no visa was required as the primary purpose was a holiday and advised this would be ok under VWP:bored:

Is this correct??? my understanding was that as this would be my inital MEP class rating then means I would need to obtain an M1 visa??

Any advice would be great as the search function came up with nothing.

I was planning on the UK for the training but as I am already going on holiday it would make sense?

VFR

[fred1977]

hi
i plan to go to america to get may ATP do i need a M1 visa or may i go to america with just a tourist visa and receive my flight training and do my check ride ???
No TSA is required for ATP

Thank to answer

fred

[fred1977]

for information i have already a faa commercial

fred

[fred1977]

just 2 to 3 weeks or maybe less juste te time to fly 10 to 15 HOURS and do my checkride

[fred1977]

the problem it's if you don't pass your atp first time! so on bad senario the best is to get a M1.
But where is your freedom if you want to go a small flight school?
with the M1 you have to go to some flight school where there are a lot of students!

Thank you

[BigGrecian]

Those who were after the reference regarding B1/B2 visas.
This is the extract from 8 CFR § 214.2 which does not allow any studying on a B1/B2 visa.

(7) Enrollment in a course of study prohibited. An alien who is admitted as, or changes status to, a B–1 or B–2 nonimmigrant on or after April 12, 2002, or who files a request to extend the period of authorized stay in B–1 or B–2 nonimmigrant status on or after such date, violates the conditions of his or her B–1 or B–2 status if the alien enrolls in a course of study. Such an alien who desires to enroll in a course of study must either obtain an F–1 or M–1 nonimmigrant visa from a consular officer abroad and seek readmission to the United States, or apply for and obtain a change of status under section 248 of the Act and 8 CFR part 248. The alien may not enroll in the course of study until the Service has admitted the alien as an F–1 or M–1 nonimmigrant or has approved the alien's application under part 248 of this chapter and changed the alien's status to that of an F–1 or M–1 nonimmigrant.

[sambel]

Hey guys, thanks for finally explaining the USA TSA/VISA hassle....

I think what fred1977 is trying to say, that If you have to choose a flight school that has the ability to provide the applicant with the necessary paperwork the prices and rates will also increase rapidly.

Quick explanation on my situation. I have JAA CPL(A) IR SEP MEP with a frozen ATPL(A) TT about 750h and a JAA CPL(H) R22,R44,H300 TT 220h and FAA PPL (A) SEP MEP based on my foreign license. I've been wanting to get the FAA CPL(A) IR SEP MEP but on a very cost effective way and keep my options open concerning flight school or not. I haven't had a very good experience with USA flight school in the past. So the best option is just a CFI that has his own plane, just to do some prep flights, that still flies for fun... I only encountered flight schools that see me as a walking dollar sign.
So I'm also not looking for training, just check rides like GKaplan. I did the FAA CPL written test in Paris and it will expire by the end of January 2011.
Oklahoma is waiting on me to tell them to what FSBO they can send the approval.

So I have a issue with the TSA clearance, it states that my flight school has to verify the training.... I don't know what my flight school will be, I'm hoping, there will be none. Also the dates and duration is a question mark, I hope fast...
Also for a visa I need a flight school.....

I've been requesting price offers from a lot of schools, but no joy there... full training offers?? High prices per flight hour...Etc..

I've even been checking the AVGAS fuel prices to determine the state in which to find a flight... So If someone can point me in the right direction concerning a flight school or CFI or examiner please PM.

So all this is keeping me from coming to the USA...again...

If you ask me, I would get the TSA and M1 VISA, but then I need to go to an expensive flight school. How many times can I request a M1 VISA, because I will need it because I also want to get the FAA CFI in the future and then I will need training....


thanks again for the great topic!!
Greetings from Belgium.

[BigGrecian]

So I have a issue with the TSA clearance, it states that my flight school has to verify the training.... I don't know what my flight school will be, I'm hoping, there will be none.

You have to do it at a flight school. You CANNOT do it with a private CFI as US immigration law does not allow this.

You will have to go to a SEVIS approved school ie. a 141 school.

There is no limit on the number of M1 visas you can have. As long as you meet the eligibility requirements and maintain your status you should have no problems.

This has been covered in much detail above. Please read the posts rather than just posting on the end.

[tr0jan]

why would you guys wana do training in this USA , and go through all the headaches and visas and stuff. do you training in a welcoming country like the UK and you have got a much better chance to have a job with a JAA license. south africa , brazil and lots of countries now are offering cheap package prices for a full professional pilot course

[sambel]

I've read all the posts above,thank you very much... Finding the TSA / VISA clearance thing a big money joke... oops now I might get flagged... The only reason why I would like to get the FAA licenses is because there are a lot of "N" registered aircraft's in Europe.... Just because the maintenance is a little less expensive than when it's registered in a EU country... I still wonder why there needs to be a difference between the rules is the aviation rules in the CAA, FAA or JAA.... certainly not for flight safety. Money???
Yes I'm still looking for a job and I really don't want to pay for a TR. By job I mean get payed a fair amount of money to perform the piloting task. Not like what I'm doing now a lot of unpaid standbys and resulting in not many flight hours..... So If there are jobs that I didn't come across I'm always grateful to receive PM's..
I just had an offer from a flight school "special deal"...right?... a FAA CPL is 3 days only $4500,00, I really find this an absurd price, that's $1500 a day.... that's why I don't like the TSA/VISA system, It's just for the money.. If someone can prove me different, please do....

[B2N2]

This is really really off topic but I can't stand it anymore:

Sambel, tell me the following:

I have a FAA CPL ME IR and 9000+ hrs, I want a JAA CPL...how much is that going to cost me? More or less then $4500?

I'll save you the trouble and tell you how much...around $20,000.
Thank you.
The audacity of some European pilots to complain about the US system/cost....:ugh: outrageous.

Look at your own systems/cost before you complain about anything.
Trust me European trained pilots are not God's gift to aviation even though too many seem to think that way.

[MartinCh]

B2N2, you're reasonable, helping guy. Why this willy waving thing?

The cost you quote is more about the extortionate cost of UK CAA, plus overpriced 'JAA FTOs' in Florida. (IK CAA does most of the approvals for 'JAA' training in the US, especially the FTOs that aren't doing cadet schemes for some mainland continental Europe countries).
There are cheaper ways to do conversion to European CPL/IR, yet I'm not saying it would be as cheap as getting FAA CPL.

Regardless of TSA/SEVIS/M1/visa 'fee' stuff, the training cost he was quoted for the crash course conversion was the issue he had.
IF, I mean IF, he complies with all the XC PIC time, IR training etc, considering, say 200-250 bucks an hour dual in some complex SE aircraft. Hm.
How many individual checkrides would he need for FAA multi CPL with IR, if he doesn't need to build the ME and instrument ME hours? Sure, 500 dollars a pop or so, it can add up. That's why I am asking.

There isn't enough information as to what that quote includes and what it doesn't, so hard to judge the hourly pricing.

He obviously wants to be able to fly N-reg in Europe. He's got all the European papers sorted already. Some postsers don't read sambel's first post. I sent him PM about the FAA examiner guy in Europe - if he ticks all the boxes as per CFR/FARs, it'd be easier, avoiding dropping to US. He'd still need couple hours with FAA CFI and doing the TSA I presume (now that's one of the weird things, doing security clearance to train in the US, when collecting certificates outside US soil...)

TSA got plenty publicity in the media these days, for other reasons. :eek:

[lollots82]

but I found a lot if useful info here so I am asking here because it seems you guys know what you're talking about.

can anyone comment on this?



"Currently Learn To Fly San Diego is a flight school operating under Part 61 of the FAA code of federal regulations.
We can train nonimmigrant international students who are already in the USA with a valid visa.
Our instructors are registered with the TSA as providers for training of international students.
If you are already in the USA with a valid visa we can assist you in changing providers to one of our instructors.
The TSA charges a $130 fee for this process. "



I am already in the US with a valid VISA and was contemplating transferring from my current school (they're total jerks). I have talked to these guys and they seem like nice people, but I cannot find any validating info on their claim that they can actually train internationals even though they are not a part 141 school.

Thanks

[lollots82]

Thanks for the exhaustive answer.
Ok, I'm here on a M1 Visa.
I will not pursue the transfer to the above mentioned school as I think it's just too much risk and too much trouble.

But I will transfer to another part 141 approved school.
I talked to this new school today and apparently it's a routine task to get people transferred between schools (and apparently quite a few students at the school I am currently training had at do this!). They gave me an I-539 form to complete, and said that the 'old' school is legally REQUIRED to allow me to transfer and hand in all the documentation they have (unless they can prove I am not meeting the required standard but I don't see how they could simply make that up?).

I still have $500 in the account with the 'old' school so I will wait for the money to run out (2 flight lessons more or less) before mentioning the transfer, as I give for granted that they wouldn't reimburse me a cent..

Then I will tell them 'thanks for nothing', hand them the papers and wait for the paperwork to follow its course. I am not too much in a rush so even if I don't get to fly for a week is not going to be a drama.

They said the process will cost me $130 for TSA and $300 for SEVIS. Happiness comes at a cost.

The new school said that I could even enjoy the flexibility of training under part 61 if I wished to? And that most internationals at their school actually do that, as it allows you, for instance, to do at least touch and gos on a cloudy day while under part 141 if you can't do what the syllabus says you can't fly at all.
As in, the school is required to be approved for part 141 to issue I-20 forms and train international students but you as a student can decide to go for the part 61 route once in the US. But maybe I got this part wrong.

If I got something wrong, please correct me.

[lollots82]

Brilliant answers, keep them coming!

Any Flight School can get FAA Part 141 approval. That in itself is not enough - the School must be SEVIS approved.

As the school train primarily international students and gave me forms to send to SEVIS, I am pretty sure they are ok in that respect, but thanks for the clarification.

Be aware that under Part 61 the minimum coursed is longer than the Part 141 course as it is less structured. The FAA give credit to Part 141 and allow a shorter syllabus.

I knew about the different requirements, but as I am only doing my PPL, 5 hours are not going to be much of a difference, especially considering that the average student (and I count myself as one) will take much longer to finish it off anyway.

Like I said, your existing Fight School can make it as easy or as difficult as they want to make the transfer.
Have you read your Contract with your existing School? If you booked a course with them and they reserved a space for you on that course - they may be quite within their right to charge you a fee for early termination as they will now have an empty slot and unable to fill it. For example, if that Flight School had arranged accommodation for you, you may well have to cover that expense etc etc.
It all depends what you signed.

Call me stupid, but I don't remember signing anything at all??
Actually it was one of the reasons I chose them at first, them being informal etc.. but now this has turned into them being rude, unprofessional and simply just not a good environment to train into.

Probably not a wise move. Remember you have to be in good standing with your School - they 'own' your visa.

Eeerm.. the reason why I'd transfer is because I am NOT getting along with the person responsible for my account AT ALL. Does that count as 'not in good standing'?

Just to give account of the last two encounters:

1) I told them they got the math wrong and was overcharged once by $50 --> was told not to complain because I was already getting a good deal --> made them notice they set their market rates freely and it is only as good as what you get, and that it's not the $50 but the principle that if we agree on one price you cannot change it at will --> was told they have had "people like me" before at the school and that the way they deal with them is just ignoring them :confused: --> asked them if they knew the concept of customer satisfaction and that I was not happy about the way I was treated --> was told "I don't care, now get the hell out of my office"

2) After the last encounter I was told I had $700 in the account, and since then I had only done 3.5 hours of ground school, so when I was told I had no money in the account I said "there must be an error", and asked to see the breakdown of charges --> within 10 seconds of looking at the monitor, it was clear they had simply got the sign wrong on two transactions, meaning that something that should have been down as a credit on my account was instead charged to my account: this would restore my account to over $500 positive, as easy as that --> was told "let me see" and then they proceeded in getting out all invoices for my account, going through one by one and double checking against the computer, while it was obvious what had happened :ugh: --> ten minutes later "ooooh I have charged for something that was a credit, now how do I correct that" --> told them it really wasn't that hard, they just had to reverse the charge and then finally credit the same amount --> was thrown the invoices at and told "do you know how our invoicing system works?" --> told them it's none of my concern and definitely isn't my job, even though it really isn't a complex problem --> was told "then quit telling me how to do my job".

Now tell me if I can keep training with people like this, or simply grace them with my money they don't deserve.

The transfer process may well take quite a bit longer with the USCIS than a week or so.
The new school said this normally takes from 4 days to a week. Either way, I am not in any sort of rush and Christmas is approaching so if they want to take longer, I'll take a longer holiday.

How many hours have you completed to date?
Done only about 9 hours, so it shouldn't be much trouble transferring I would think?

Have you completed your written?
Nope, not even stage 1 or anything.

How long is your Duration of Stay as denoted in your passport?
I have the whole 12 months max as allowed per M1, and about 11 months left

How long are you planning to be in the US before you depart?
Not sure what you mean, but I am assuming I will finish the PPL much earlier than 12 months, probably at the end of February or beginning of March? Might throw in IR as well, but not anything else, I wasn't planning to go commercial.

[lollots82]

I am surprised that you have signed nothing with your existing school.. I would have expected you to have signed something e.g. agreeing to them to get your visa, TSA fees etc. Did they arranged your accommodation etc.

They simply sent the I-20 then I had to do EVERYTHING on my own: TSA, fingerprinting, SEVIS, Medical etc..
They arranged accommodation which I took for the first two weeks, then moved out to a nicer place (and that's when they short changed me on the refund).

You are right in saying that they are not explaining anything to me in detail.
I found out so many things just by going to speak to the new school and clearly I still don't have the full picture. The problem with the old school is that the person in charge (who is not the owner btw) is so rude that I am avoiding having to deal with him, and I trust none of his words, he makes false claims just to make do what he wants. For instance, I am sure that if I had asked if a transfer was possible (without consulting this forum or the other school), they would have said no, the same way they have already said I can only follow a part 141 course even though I told them I was sure of the contrary.

I know it is drastic after only 9 hours, but as I said and as you can read, it really isn't a nice environment to train in and it's making me hating the whole flying experience.

If you have taken 4 weeks so far (implied if you say you have 11 months left on a 12 month max stay) and only got 9 hours done - that is extremely slow progress.
Typically, many folks are close to completion at that stage with 45+ hours.

Any reason for the very slow progress? How many hours a week are you in the Flight School and training?

I have 10 hours of ground on top of the 9 hours of flying. I didn't really do anything on my first week or so because I was just settling in - you know, buying phones, looking for a nice place to rent, etc.. and as per I-20 my course was due to start on Dec 12th (so I assumed I was fine since you can enter the US up to 30 days before starting your course)
After that period, now I am going to school 5 times a week: flying 3 days, one day I watch the DVDs, one day I do ground - though I have only been able to fly once this week due to maintenance/weather.
So lets say this week I could have followed the normal schedule, I would have about 12/13 hours flying in 3 weeks.
The new school actually said that for them I would be fulfilling my requirements as a full-time student as long as I go there 4 days out of a 7 days period. No mention of hours.
So yes I am proceeding slowly but I don't think I'm doing anything unlawful?

Also - to expedite the whole process - you would have been better to have got your Written done and dusted before you left your home country thereby allowing you to focus on a Part 61 Flight Training course (which has to be conducted at a Part 141 SEVIS approved school).
True, unfortunately I did not do my research properly and now I am paying (in all senses) for it.

[selfin]

lollots82,

Re your above posting 16th Dec. where you quoted,

"Currently Learn To Fly San Diego is a flight school operating under Part 61 of the FAA code of federal regulations.
We can train nonimmigrant international students who are already in the USA with a valid visa.
Our instructors are registered with the TSA as providers for training of international students.
If you are already in the USA with a valid visa we can assist you in changing providers to one of our instructors.
The TSA charges a $130 fee for this process. "

Notwithstanding the foregoing remarks in the interim it bears mentioning a rule codified under 8 CFR 214.3:

§ 214.3 Approval of schools for enrollment of F and M nonimmigrants.

... (j) Advertising. In any advertisement, catalogue, brochure, pamphlet, literature, or other material hereafter printed or reprinted by or for an approved school, any statement which may appear in such material concerning approval for attendance by nonimmigrant students shall be limited solely to the following: This school is authorized under Federal law to enroll nonimmigrant alien students.

[1in1000000]

Hi all. I hope someone can answer my question as i have exhausted all other routes and still cant find a clear answer.

I would like to attend a flight school in Florida to complete the FAA IR/CPL/CFI/CFII courses.
I currently hold an FAA PPL.
I have flown over 100 hours since i did my PPL, all of which is relevant for the mins to obtain a CPL and IR.
I havent taken any other written exams for any other licences.
My question is, am i entitled to apply for an F-1 visa?
I would very much like to work as an instructor once i have completed all my courses and from my very basic understanding, i am entitled to apply for the F-1 visa as i currently only hold a PPL.
If someone could clear this up for me it would be hugely appreciated.

Many thanks.

[1in1000000]

Thanks for the quick reply SoCal.

I wish to undertake every single part of the pro pilots course apart from the PPL which i already have.
I would prefer to do all my courses part 61, so that wouldnt be a problem for me.

Unfortunately i have contacted different schools and recieved different answers hence why i am looking for someone who either knows for sure or else some offical site which can tell me. I have spent a lot of time looking through the offical government websites and all i can deduce from them is that for an F-1 visa you need to be enrolled in a course which is mainly academic.
And seeing as i what i intend to do i mainly academic i can only presume that the flight schools are giving out f-1 visas to suit themselves despite the fact that the government has not set out the same terms and conditions as the flight schools.

Any other advice is very welcome

[1in1000000]

You won't be able to.

This isnt really a major problem. as long as i can get the licences i need im willing to do whatever it takes.

It sounds to me as though you want to pick and chose what you want - and hence you would be better off with the M1 visa and do it under Part 61.

I never said or implied that i wanted to pick and chose so im not sure where you picked that up. the fact that i already have a PPL is not a problem in terms of applying for the F-1 so it really is a non issue.as i already said... i want to do all licences apart from the PPL.

The M1 visa would not suit my needs as it does not entitle a student to work as an instructor once the visa has expired so it is a no-go option.
I fully willing to pay for all my training but i would also like to have the opportunity to work as a CFI once i finish with any training provider.
I idea of forking out the big bucks for the training and not being able to get a job from my qualification doesnt sound like a good idea to me.

[nh2301]

Here's a list of some schools which offer the F1 visa for flight training. It is incomplete.

Central Oregon Community College - Bend, OR
Big Bend Community College - Moses Lake, WA
Salt Lake Community College - Salt Lake City, UT
Palm Beach State College - Lake Worth, FL
Embry Riddle - Prescott, AZ, Daytona Beach, FL
University of North Dakota - Grand Forks, ND
North West College of Aviation - Seattle, WA
Yavapai College - Prescott, AZ
Middle Tennessee State University - Murfreesboro, TN
Cochise College - Douglas, AZ
Chandler Gilbert Community College/UND Partnership - Phoenix, AZ
AIMS College - Greeley, CO
Portland Community College - Portland, OR
Indian Hills Community College - Ottumwa, Iowa
Westfield State College - Westfield, MA
Kansas State University
San Jacinto College Central-Pasadena, TX
Bridgewater State College
College of the Sequoias
The Community College of Baltimore County
Dodge City Community College
Florida Institute of Technology
Hibbing Community College
Liberty University
Metropolitan State College of Denver
Middle-Georgia College
Naugatuck Valley Community College
Wallace State Community College

[flylars]

i did my training at air safety in colorado, they took care of all M1 requirments, so my view is it should always be the school to answer those questions and help, thats what they charge you for in the end to provide this service

[1in1000000]

Big thanks for all the replies guys. Like i said before i have talked to different schools who are authorized to issue the F-1 visa and one school told me i was eligible for it while another school told me that i wasnt.
I would have gone with the school who told me that they would give me the F-1 visa but unfortunately they dont have the aircraft that i am looking to get type rated on in addition to my flight training.
I have spoken to my local embassy but they were even more clueless about my query than i am (cost me over $50 for the privilage of learning nothing about the two visas :* )
I have been reading about both visas for months and am fully aware of all the terms and conditions of all visas in terms of jobs and length of stay.thats not what i am enquiring about and apologise if that came across in my previous posts.

I still havent been able to find any offical source on what makes someone eligible for an F-1 visa or not.:ugh:

[VJW]

Quick question, apologise if it's been answered before.

I'm a UK JAR CPL (A) holder with 2000 TT of which 1700 is on B737. I also have the FAA PPL piggybacked from my UK licence.

I'm wanting to obtain the FAA ATP, and I plan on doing it all on a light twin for which I have found a school.

I am a UK and Canadian Citizen, married to a US citizen (hence the reason for the conversion).

My question is, do I need TSA clearance to convert to FAA ATP? Or was that just for initial training?

In addition, once I complete the conversion, can the examiner put the 737 onto the new FAA ATP based on the verification letter I have from the FAA?

Kind regards
VJW

[Capt.Rad]

Hello all ..

I need to know if it's possible to go for difeerent schools @ the same time ..

I'm planning to come to US for MBA , plus I want to join a flying school for building hours or maybe a type rating ..

please , explain about visa rules and what 2 do to be legal and free to go on with all requirements .

thanks ,,,

[Johnny Bekkestad]

TSA is a requirement for all non-us citizens. There is a difference between citizen and resident/green card holder. A green card holder still needs TSA clearance. A US citizen still needs to provide proof of citizenship, by using a birth certificate, passport etc for more info on that read 49 CFR part 1552

Now my understanding is that TSA is only required for initial training on
ASEL/S, AMEL/S and Instrument. So my conclusion is that you would not need one for ATP as you would already have your instrument.

BR
Johnny

[sonsal]

hello all i need a little clarification regarding M-1 visa, i have M-1 visa valid till 2014. I went to US in feb 2009 for a month and that time my I-20 was valid for 1 year. Now i have to go back to US for further traning may be in different school or to same school, do i need to get a new visa or the same one will work with a new I-20?

Is there any time limitation that if i dont return to US within a specific time, i have to get a new visa?

Thankyou

[corpus callosum]

Hi there,

This seems to be the place to ask about visa and such.

I'm about to go over to the states to do a type rating at FSI. From my own research I have come to the conclusion that you are able to enter the states and do the training on the Visa Wavier program? Is this correct?

Corpus

[corpus callosum]

Thanks socal,

I'm doing it as a private person, Your right thats the last thing I would need, to be turned around as soon as I got there.

I will try and get in contact with the USCIS today then.

As for TSA FSI has told me many times that because of the type I do not require TSA (The aircraft MTOW is 12,500), so that will be interesting.

Corpus

*Edit* Just spoke to FSI and the US Embassy in London they both said the same thing. Since the UK and US have the VWP just fill out the ESTA form online and tell the Immigration Officer that i'm there for Simulator Based training. Now Lets hope its going to be that easy :} I'll let you know how it goes then.

[corpus callosum]

Yep its 100% simulator based and to finished the JAA part I will do the touch and goes in the Uk.

Its my first type, But the women I spoke to said it was a category 3.

(Category 3 is for pilots training in any aircraft with a MTOW of 12,500 lbs. or less. (Note: in many cases Category 3 is waived and no TSA application is required. Check with your learning center).)

Corpus

[corpus callosum]

I'm going on what FSI has told me that the TSA is not needed. Its at 12,500 or less aircraft. It would be interesting to know why FSI say that its not required when the web site you linked says something different.

Its JAA PIC and I may have it put on FAA as SIC

[sonsal]

thankyou for the clarification, however i am still confused because flight school is saying that i dont need a new visa, they are saying that they will issue a Fresh I-20 for M-1 visa and as my visa on my passport is stamped till 2014 so it should not be a problem.....
Whats your take on it.....

[corpus callosum]

I Hold both FAA and JAA tickets already so I would not be getting a new FAA cert.

And its it a 12,500 lb MTOW not 1 lb over.

Corpus

[Peter PanPan]

Hey everyone, quick question about TSA requirements, I just came across the following note:

"Note: Category 3 Rotorcraft Requirements - Candidates who seek flight training in the operation of rotorcraft with a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 pounds or less are subject to the above Category 3 clarification. Candidates must obtain approval for the initial license, instrument rating or multi-engine rating if the pilot does not hold a fixed-wing equivalent"

If I were to look into getting a ME add-on rating on the fixed wing side, does the above note mean that the fact that I already have Multi-Engine experience on the Rotary side exempts me from having to request a TSA clearance again? It is somewhat confusing since a ME class rating for Helicopters doesn't exist on the FAA side. It's getting late and I am tired, I need a quick answer and highly appreciate anyone's help on this easy one :)

[Peter PanPan]

Thanks SoCal, you are always so helpful :ok:

[mohamad haziq]

hi guys,
i'm new here,i need info on how to convert my casa australian license to jaa american license.......your help will be appreciated

[zondaracer]

Hey Mohamad, welcome.

I will tell you how to convert to an ¨American¨ JAA license as soon an American country (see thread under North America, hehe) joins the JAA.

Do you want an FAA license (US issue)? or a JAA (European issue) license?

[B2N2]

This thread has been doing perfectly fine without me, thanks to SoCal but let's not pollute it with questions that are not related to flight training on an M-1 visa.

[cessna310]

Hi,

I am(UK citizen) planning to go for 737 type rating to US.Do i need to get M1 visa or TSA approval? What is the procedure?Any help greatly appreciated.

Cessna310

[odim]

Hi Everyone, hope everyone is doing great!

i have a question and needed some advice:

im a foreigner getting my IR/CPL/MEL, with an M-1 Visa and have tsa approval to the flight school, i'm thinking about switching to another school because where i'm at currently has alot of issues with they're instructors and airplanes, i've contacted TSA and they said i can apply for another TSA for a different flight school.

My question is, if i get approved for the NEW TSA at the NEW School and my old school cancels my previous TSA And visa, will my NEW TSA Still be valid?

i hope my question is not confusing.. :ugh:

[odim]

Regarding the person who asked about Phoenix East Aviation:

i would NOT even think about applying there, i have heard MANY MANY stories about how they rob you and cause alot of issues for students, especially foreigners.

you can pm me if you want more details.

[B2N2]

The school is required to transfer you in SEVIS if you request it.

[odim]

oh, i was not aware of that, i was told by many people that if the school even thinks that i might be going to another flight school, they cancel my visa.

I just would like to know, if my new TSA Has been approved, can i continue training and do a checkride even if my old school cancelled my visa? Reason i'm asking is because i'm 1-2 flights away from my IR Checkride, so it would not take long to do that.

[odim]

Thanks for clarifying that.

just a small update, i called the immigration office ( visa section to be specific ) and explained to them my situation, and the reply i got was this:

as long as you're NEW TSA is approved and valid, you can continue to fly and take the check-ride EVEN IF you're visa gets cancelled, because i have a grace period of 30 days to leave the country once the school cancels you're visa.

i'm just trying to be sure that information is correct and or/ i asked and received the answer to my question, because really, it shouldn't take me more than 2 weeks to complete my flying and do the check rides.

What do you think about that?


Also, what reasons would TSA Not approve a new TSA Application? and how long do they usually take? i've checked the status of it and it states " documentation accepted "

[odim]

oh ... they're been causing me way too many problems, already spent at least 3x the ammount i was quoted so i dont want any more delays and shed out more money.

so bottom line is, EVEN if my new TSA Request is approved, and the school cancels my existing visa, the new TSA will be cancelled > can't fly?

[odim]

No i haven't, actually.. which is why i'm here to ask what options and see " experts " opinions are.

I've gotten my answer, thanks for the help.

[rudds]

Sorry but after reading this i'm still confused, i have a FAA CPL IR and JAA CPL MEP IR. I would like to upgrade to FAA ATP and MEP, check ride only although i may a couple of hours familirisation in the Seminole. I have TSA clearance, will i need the M1 visa or can i go with the visa waiver program?
Many thanks in advance

[Islandcrazy]

I hope I havent missed this in reading through the previous posts. I dont think it has come up. There are some great posts with useful information so far.

What about Add-Ons? Assuming of course the full-time course of study to meet the minimum requirements of 50 hours for the certificate?

M1 Visa and TSA required for non-USA citizen?

Thanks

[Cranebill]

That's not correct. Enrollment is a SEVIS approved school is only necessary for students enrolling in a full time course of training. Travelers visiting the US from other countries that participate in flight training, but did not come to the US specifically for that purpose are allowed to train less than 18 hours per week.

[Gomrath]

Enrollment is a SEVIS approved school is only necessary for students enrolling in a full time course of training. Travelers visiting the US from other countries that participate in flight training, but did not come to the US specifically for that purpose are allowed to train less than 18 hours per week.
That is an old wives tail and incorrect - and is often put around by Part 61 Schools who have not completed Part 141 status and therefore are not SEVIS approved for the issue of I-20's.
The ruling states that if you attend the US for a course of study...
The ruling then defines what a course of study is - for vocational training - something that leads to a certification.
Then goes on to say that you cannot undertake that course of study under the visa waiver.
Go look it up. It even cites Flight Training specifically.
I would point you to page 2 first bullet point

http://www.eandvh.com/engine/pubs/getdoc.aspx?id=40&dl=1

[selfin]

While the DOJ memorandum references 8 CFR 248.1(c), which since 12th April 2002 has prohibited persons admitted to the US under a B-class visa from undertaking a course of study (at an approved school) without first applying for a change of nonimmigrant classification, it fails to address the definition of "full course of study" used in INA(15)(M) establishing the M-class visa.

The definition of "full course of study" is made at 8 CFR 214.2(m) (FDsys PDF link (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title8-vol1/pdf/CFR-2011-title8-vol1-sec214-2.pdf))

pp 343–345 of the linked extract:

------

(m) Students in established vocational
or other recognized nonacademic institutions, other than in language training
programs—

...

(9) Full course of study. Successful
completion of the course of study must
lead to the attainment of a specific
educational or vocational objective. A
‘‘full course of study’’ as required by
section 101(a)(15)(M)(i) of the Act
means—

(i) ...

(ii) ...

(iii) Study in a vocational or other
nonacademic curriculum, other than in
a language training program except as
provided in § 214.3(a)(2)(iv), certified by
a designated school official to consist
of at least eighteen clock hours of
attendance a week if the dominant part
of the course of study consists of classroom
instruction, or at least twenty-two clock
hours a week if the dominant
part of the course of study consists of
shop or laboratory work; or

(iv) ...

...

------

This raises the fairly obvious question of how aliens are supposed to lawfully seek admission to the US for short courses of study falling below this threshold?

[Gomrath]

If the course of study - even a 'short' course results in some form of certificate or qualification etc then it requires the appropriate visa. If the study is such that it does not result in a certificate/qualification then the status quo applies. However, as you see, Flight Training is specifically called out as an example in that letter and makes no reference to what is deemed a short course. The fact that it results in a qualification is what matters.

I fail to understand why folk make such a big deal of getting a visa - it costs around $300 which in the grand scheme of flight training is a drop in the ocean.

[selfin]

I have no argument with the requirement made of an alien to enter the US under the appropriate nonimmigrant academic or vocational visa for a non-trivial "course of study." The language used in the INA at 101(15)(B) states clearly that a person must not be coming to the US under a B-class visa for the purpose of undertaking a course of study and the memorandum references 8 CFR 248.1(c) which now requires anyone on a B visa to change status to an M- or F-class visa, as appropriate, prior to beginning a "course of study."

The problem lies in the explicit interpretation given to "full course of study" as mentioned in the above post. While 8 CFR 248.1(c) does not discriminate between a "full course of study" and "course of study" and therefore applies generally to all non-trivial courses, the INA at 101(15)(M) explicitly states "full course of study" and a definition of it is provided for in 214.2(m)(9)(iii).

1. An alien intending to embark on any non-trivial "course of study" must do so under an M- or F- visa.

2. An M- or F- visa requires the alien to engage in a "full course of study."

3. A "full course of study" precludes short courses such as a night qualification.

Why doesn't the DOJ seek an amendment of the wording of 214.2(m)(9)(iii) to reduce the threshold minimum studying hours to permit a short course such as a night qualification to fall within the definition of a "full course of study" as mandated by the INA? None of that changes the fact that an M- or F-class visa is required for a short course but the "terms and conditions" of an M-class visa do not allow for them.

[Gomrath]

An alien intending to embark on any non-trivial "course of study" must do so under an M- or F- visa.

What they are saying is that Flight Training leading to a qualification requires the visa - period. The letter that I pointed to above makes no reference to the distinction between "short" or not - simply that a vocational course that leads to a qualification requires the M1 visa.

An M- or F- visa requires the alien to engage in a "full course of study."
For an F1 visa - yes because those folks are attending one of the handful of academic schools for 2 years or so - but not for an M1.
Plenty of folk come to the US to attend one of the Florida based schools and get their Private in 21-28 days. Even allowing 55 hours to complete - it only averages 14 hours or so a week - but they still require a M1.
It is still a "full course of study".

[selfin]

The memorandum does not need to specify every detail pertaining to those visa classes.

The primary M-class is established under the INA at 101(a)(15)(M)(i) with the following language:

INA 101(a)(15)(M)(i) an alien [...] who seeks to enter the United States temporarily and solely for the purpose of pursuing a full course of study at an established vocational or other recognized nonacademic institution (other than in a language training program) in the United States [...]

The definition provided for "full course of study," at 8 CFR 214.2(m)(9) as aforementioned, states "A 'full course of study' as required by section 101(a)(15)(M)(i) of the Act means [...]"

It's a fine point but a night qualification falls short of the threshold meaning it cannot in the overwhelming majority of cases, on its own, be pursued under an M visa. Unless one argues that the minimum time requirement can be pro-rated. The rule should be modified.

[Gomrath]

Suffice it to say that anybody considering coming to the US for the purpose of getting a JAA night qualification that takes maybe 2 days at most - must be certifiable.

I am not arguing about whether various material should or should not be modified.
I am simply stating that training leading to a certification is considered 'more involved' and treated as a full course of study - as per that letter. The fact that Flight Training was specifically called out as such is itself indicative.

[felixflyer]

After reading this and other threads on here there seems to be a difference of opinion.

I have found a flying school that I would like to attend in order to gain my FAA/IR. They are not SEVIS approved. They have told me they could train me.

Does not being SEVIS approved completely rule them out for me or do I just need to get a different kind of VISA?

[Gomrath]

To be SEVIS approved the Flight School has to first be a FAA Part 141 School. That shows that they meet certain criteria laid down by the FAA including having fully audited training plan for every course that they wish to undertake. The FAA also make visits to ensure compliance etc. As a result, the Student is given certain privileges in terms of a reduced number of hours to attain a certificate etc. Also a student can immediately on completion of a FAA private cert- go immediately into a Part 141 Instrument rating without the need for the pre-req flight hours that would be required under the lesser Part 61 course etc.

Once a School has Part 141 approval - they can if they wish then go and apply to the USCIS for SEVIS approval which allows them to train overseas schools who need a visa for Flight Training typically a M1 visa. Although there are a small number of Flight "Academies" who area able to sponsor a F1 visa.

Getting Part 141 and then later getting SEVIS approval costs a Flight School many of thousands of $$ in time, effort, training of Instructors etc and FAA auditing. That's why some Schools don't go to the effort.

Long story short - if you are a foreigner and wishing to train for a FAA cert then you really need a M1 visa. Some Flight Schools may tell you otherwise but if you are 'caught' and found to be in breach of your immigration status you are responsible not the Flight School.
The TSA also require that you specify the visa type/number when applying for TSA clearance and they also provide the statement on their own website that if you are later found to be in breach, they will terminate the TSA approval etc.

To be honest - for the sake of $200-$300 for a visa - why take the risk and why go to a non SEVIS school who have not proven themselves able to meet the requirements?

How long were you planning to be in the US for this training and what training were you considering? Take a look at EASA, EFT etc - they all provide the ability to handle the visa paperwork. (This is not a recommendation for these Schools) - plus you can get a JAA license in parallel. Especially with the new Euro regs indicating a JAA license will be mandatory for Euro citizens.

[felixflyer]

Thanks for the reply.

I have done some IR training in the UK towards my FAA IR and wanted to go and finish the training and do my test. I don't mind paying the fees for the VISA etc. The reason I want to use the school I have seen is I would have free accomodation nearby with family and the school have also quoted me a good price.

[Gomrath]

You should review FAR 61.65 regarding training towards an FAA IR.
Whether you choose to use the non approved Flight School is your call . You are at least aware.
This other recent thread on the subject of legalities points out what can happen. http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/473132-san-diego-hour-bulding-march-april.html#post6941529

Will you have access to a N reg when back in Europe in order to exercise the FAA IR? (until EASA change the regs for Euro residents).

[felixflyer]

Thanks, so is it legal to finish my IR at a school, that is not SEVIS Part 141 etc. Does this only apply to full courses of training. It would be useful to use this school but I dont want to do it if I risk getting into trouble.

Is there a definitve answer to this or is it a grey area?

[Gomrath]

It is not really a grey area - I think you are trying to make it so.
You are coming to the US for flight training leading to a certificate/rating. You need TSA and officially need a M1 visa and hence require a Part 141 and SEVIS approved school.
At the end of the day it is entirely up to you if you choose to go some other route.
Did you read this link further up this thread?
http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/418519-m1-visa-no-visa-sevis-approved-schools-usa-7.html#post6841179

The fact that you have done some training in the UK is irrelevant and presumably that training was not done with a FAA Authorized Instructor (as defined in FAR 61.1) because officially you should have got TSA clearance before starting any FAA related training - even if it is undertaken outside the US.
You need to review 61.65 to determine how much training you need to complete with the FAA Authorized Instructor as some of what you have done may not qualify.

What are the longer term intentions of the FAA IR? Are you planning to go on to Commercial etc with the view to trying to work in the US?

[felixflyer]

Hi

I have no plans to work in the USA and will be converting it to a JAR IR eventually.

[G550-PIC]

Hi , thinking of applying to PEA in Florida this year...from you thread you sound displeased. I've been to their web site and they kinda looks cool and all.What is your experience so i don't fall into issues.Its a lot of investment.

What other flights schools in the USA can you recommend to me that can give me a reliable and affordable training to become a successful airline pilot.

:ok:

[Gomrath]

What other flights schools in the USA can you recommend to me that can give me a reliable and affordable training to become a successful airline pilot.

To answer that you need to indicate what authorities license/certificates you are looking to train for. FAA, JAA etc. and that is somewhat determined by where you are able to live and work etc.

[uniformpapa]

Hi,
I'm new and maybe my question has still found an answer:
having a JAA PPL, converted to FAA PLL a wishing to do the FAA IR in the US, I decided to do the training with AFIT. It's a 10-day programm (part 61). They state that it's a accellerated programm and that none of their clients (from Europe) have attained an M1 visa.
Does this sounds right?

[rossauk]

Go with what Proudprivate says below as it sounds like he's speaking from experience. Great advice!

Good luck on your IR

[proudprivate]

Best advice : check with your local US consular officer and ask, preferably in writing (e-mail), so that you have something on paper in case an immigration officer asks.

My personal experience with short accelerated programs is that US immigration requires either an M1 or a B1 or a B2 VISA. However, to get by on a B1/B2, it should be made credible that you 're not going to be longer in the US than about 2-3 weeks (at least not for training).

The more it sounds like a complete flight training programme, the more likely the need for an M1 is (to be obtained, at an extra cost and some hassle, through a SEVIS approved school sponsored application). A 10-day instrument rating without any previous training sounds ambitious.

The flight school obviously has a conflict of interest, and some of them are unethical in their advice. Being in the wrong immigration status is not a light matter. But for a short (finishing up ?) programme like that, it is not unlikely that all their European students came in on B1 or B2. Please note that the VISA waiver programme would not do the trick here (both the us govt website and correspondence with the US Embassy in Brussels confirm this).

Also don't forget the TSA category 3 application, which is mandatory for the instrument rating.

[Gomrath]

Any FAA Part 61 School who is not Part 141/SEVIS approved will have no clue as to the USCIS regulations on immigration requirements.
That is why they are NOT SEVIS approved to issue I0-20 paperwork for a visa.

What are your longer term intentions once you have a FAA certificate - back in Italy if and when the new EASA rules come into force - when the FAA certs may become 'worthless'?

[proudprivate]

Any FAA Part 61 School who is not Part 141/SEVIS approved will have no clue as to the USCIS regulations on immigration requirements.


I beg to differ. Whilst they will not be in a position to issue an I-20 form and might not offer flight training as a normal pilot factory would, some (if not most) of them are very well informed about immigration requirements.

Not all are entirely honest, though, and there have been that deliberately give erroneous information to get more business. That being said, I believe in your case, the flight school is credible.



new EASA rules come into force - when the FAA certs may become 'worthless'?

That is a bit of an overstatement, at best. A thread drift, for sure. Clearly FAA certificates will retain their value after EASA rules come into force.

[737-NG]

From what I remember from my own experience, you need to have an M1 visa to train full time, meaning more than 17hours a month.
Man, hit the books in order to be ready for the written, take a month off, and go do your IR with a part 141 school. I don't believe much in that part 61 10 day thing. (unless you already have your 50hour cross country done, and some instrument time,but the again

[uniformpapa]

Thanks for all your advice.
I'm interested in getting a better and safer private pilot. That's why I'm thinking to go for the IR. I had some instrument (JAA) dual time and regularly fly an N-registered aircraft here in Italy.
As I can't take 1 month off from work for the IR training I need a "fast-track" syllabus to be done in 10-14 days. The knowledge test will be done in the UK before going to the US.
I'm not fixed on a part 61 school, and I'm not trying to "trick" the system, going on the visa waiver program, but nevertheless I'm looking for the official informations and it seems not easy to find it in writing, just opinions.
I'll be very thankfull to everybody who could help me.

[proudprivate]

A programme to follow for the OP would be :

1. Write to the US Consular Officers in Milan, San Marino, Rome, Naples or Florence

CONTACT INFORMATION FOR ALL VISA SECTIONS IN ITALY

EMBASSY ROME - Visa Section

The Rome visa section serves the residents of the Rome visa district, which includes the Regions of: Lazio, Abruzzo, Sardegna, Umbria and Marche.

Mailing address: Via Vittorio Veneto 121 - 00187 ROMA
E-mail address for Non Immigrant Visa Services: [email protected]

CONSULATE GENERAL MILAN - Visa Section

The Milan visa section serves the residents of the Milan visa district, which includes the Regions of: Valle D'Aosta, Piemonte, Lombardia, Veneto, Trentino-Alto Adige, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Liguria and Emilia Romagna (Provinces of Piacenza and Parma only).

Mailing address: Via Principe Amedeo, 2/10 - 20121 MILANO
E-mail address for Non Immigrant Visa Services: [email protected]

CONSULATE GENERAL FLORENCE - Visa Section

The Florence visa section serves the residents of the Florence visa district, which includes the Regions of: Tuscany, Emilia-Romagna (all except the Provinces of Piacenza and Parma) as well as the Republic of San Marino.

Mailing address: Lungarno Vespucci, 38 - 50123 FIRENZE
E-mail address for Non Immigrant Visa Services: [email protected]

CONSULATE GENERAL NAPLES - Visa Section

The Naples Non Immigrant visa section serves the residents of the Naples visa district, which includes the Regions of: Campania, Molise, Basilicata, Puglia, Calabria, and Sicilia

The Naples Immigrant visa section provides Immigrant Visa services Italy-wide.

Mailing address: Piazza della Repubblica - 80122 NAPOLI
E-mail address for Non Immigrant Visa Services: [email protected]
E-mail address for Immigrant Visa Services: [email protected]


describing the flight training (finishing up) you wish to do and getting a confirmation whether a B1/B2 visa is sufficient.

You will, after some delay, get the necessary response (such as the one below - which was for finishing up an FAA PPL in Florida):


Subject: RE: VISA required for Private Pilot Licence training in the US in January
Date: [redacted]
From: [redacted]
To: [redacted]


Yes you may apply for a B visa. Please contact our call center tel [redacted] to obtain an appointment date.
Best regards

Visa section

2. Make an appointment with the consulate near you. They nowadays charge for the call (about €15) to make the appointment.

3. For a 10-14 day finishing up programme as you are going for, it makes sense to do sufficient training and get the necessary aeronautical experience beforehand (this can be done by a JAA instructor). If you decide to hire an FAA instructor, you need to get authorised through the TSA.

4. Contact the part 61 flight instruction operator you wish to complete your training with. Tell them you are in the process of obtaining the necessary B1/B2 visa but want to clear the TSA procedure with them. Ask for the training course name and number to be filled out on the TSA website www.flightschoolcandidates.gov (https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/afsp2/?acct_type=c&section=WN)

5. Arrange flights / hotel / rental car etc... when you have both your visa and the TSA approval.

[Welle]

dear gents,

after reading all 8 pages of this very helpfull thread, i have not found a final answer applying to my case:

I intend to go to CAE to dry-lease a simulator for 2 hrs for a JAA training event.
CAT 4 - more than 12500lbs - so the training provider has to apply for TSA clearence for me - and I have to go through the TSA process - correct? (did it 2009 for the initial)

VISA: can I enter the US on VWP or on my B1/B2 visum? (simulator only - 2 hrs)

what if: my company intends to send me as an JAA TRE to sit on the controls of the sim/or next to the CAE sim operator to check other pilots?
TSA/VISA etc..

i have talked to different people, giving me different answers - I am aware that collegues of mine had some trouble doing the same before..


(to make it even more complicated: i have a FAA ATP, but do not intend to make a recurrent on this ticket by now)

thx for your help, gents
rgds
welle

[selfin]

Welle,

There is strictly no non-academic vocational student visa available for you. This is a shortcoming in US law. On the previous page of this thread you'll see where I have highlighted this problem which affects 'courses of study' having fewer hours than the minima required.

A B-visa, subject both to a clarified interpretation of the INA and to an amendment in US law summarised in the DOJ memorandum (linked by Gomrath), is not available to aliens entering the US to undertake a 'course of study.' The VWP is similarly inappropriate.

A pragmatic view must at some point be taken in spite of the minimum threshold on hours of studying per week required in part satisfaction of the M visa rules. In your position I would apply for an M visa anyway. The only sensible reason I can see for there being a minimum number of hours per week is to prevent aliens entering the US for prolonged periods, notionally studying, but in reality engaging in labour.

Best of luck.

[geiser]

Hello everybody!
I apologize if I apply with a bit wrong thread, but do me a favor please …I’m going to take zero-hero course (correct?) i.e. to get PPL, CPL, ME, IR and gain 1500 TT as fast as possible . But I’m facing some difficulties, I cant find schools which are approved for F-1 visa (to gain 1000-1500 hrs). There should be about eight schools in States, I found one only, Aviator Flight Training Academy (Fort Pierce) which is not 100% satisfy me.
All information about F-1 visa approved pilot schools will be appreciated .

[saunj11]

Try Flight Safety Academy. Aerosim Academy. University of North Dakota. Aviator.edu:ok:

[geiser]

Thanks for replay. Do you know what people do say about these schools? Especially wondering about aviator.edu . Can't find students opinions.

[rudestuff]

Hi guys, another spin on the non-sevis schools theme.. could you get an M1 visa through an approved school, complete the course then do additional training somewhere else now that you're in the country on a visa? - assuming you get TSA clearance for that course...

[BigGrecian]

Proudprivate : My personal experience with short accelerated programs is that US immigration requires either an M1 or a B1 or a B2 VISA.

A B1/B2 is NOT acceptable and actually explicitly prohibited :

ECFR § 214.2 (7) Enrollment in a course of study prohibited. An alien who is admitted as, or changes status to, a B–1 or B–2 nonimmigrant on or after April 12, 2002, or who files a request to extend the period of authorized stay in B–1 or B–2 nonimmigrant status on or after such date, violates the conditions of his or her B–1 or B–2 status if the alien enrolls in a course of study.

[Gomrath]

could you get an M1 visa through an approved school, complete the course then do additional training somewhere else now that you're in the country on a visa?

No you cannot. You are in the US on a visa sponsored by the Flight School. Their name is on the visa. Leave that School and you are out of status. You need to transfer your visa BEFORE you give up that School and you need a new TSA submission request fgor the new School (if the course requires TSA approval). The new School also needs to be a SEVIS approved School in order to receive the changed visa,

[StOrMsCaTcHeR]

Aviator Flight Training College offer F1 visas for 24 months, the actual training is for 6 months and rest of time you can build up your multi engine hours as flight instructor with them.

www.aviator.edu (http://www.aviator.edu)

does anyone have a knowledge about this college and what are the prospects in regards to the visa extention as work permit and job if anyone wants to extend the visa for further employment.

i am a foreign national in the UK, currently hold JAA PPL, recently had my class 1 medical at gatwick and want to be a career pilot, and willing to relocate anywhere in the world for training.

[Another]

Originally Posted by Gomrath
No you cannot. You are in the US on a visa sponsored by the Flight School. Their name is on the visa. Leave that School and you are out of status. You need to transfer your visa BEFORE you give up that School and you need a new TSA submission request fgor the new School (if the course requires TSA approval). The new School also needs to be a SEVIS approved School in order to receive the changed visa,

@ Gomrath - think you may be correct with this in majority but not all scenarios.

Consider this:
Step 1: Do your private with M1 & TSA from SEVIS approved school.
Step 2: Rent an aircraft following completion of your private to fly around:
I do not believe that has to be at the same school?

You are not undertaking any kind of studying.

Obviously if you are doing an IR this could not be done at another school without visa change & TSA

[praneethbvs]

Hi All,

I have recently paid my Sevis Fee and I have entered my Last name incorrectly
I have sent the mail to the team requesting to change my Last Name
Is there any chance that this could be changed ?

[proudprivate]

A B1/B2 is NOT acceptable and actually explicitly prohibited :
If you're throwing CFR Title 8 Part 214 at the members of this forum, it would be helpful if you had read the entire bit, not just the ones that suit you.

You might want to read how the CFR defines "Course of Study".

certified by a designated school official to consist of at least eighteen clock hours of attendance a week if the dominant part of the course of study consists of classroom instruction, or at least twenty-two clock hours a week if the dominant part of the course of study consists of shop or laboratory work;
Now a lot of posters on this forum have a specific conflict of interest in that they are either UK flight instructors that hate to see people take flight lessons in the US; or US flight instructors at a SEVIS school that face competition from non-SEVIS schools for the short partial courses or finish up programs I was talking about.

In addition, the rules and regulations that apply and could apply are many, which makes it very easy to confuse matters, thinking that you are in the clear when you are not or thinking that you need to jump additional hoops when you don't.

So, my advice to all of you is still to check with your consular officer at your nearby US consulate or embassy, explain the situation and ask whether a B1/B2 visa is sufficient for the purpose. I have done so, and got a written confirmation before I was interviewed.

The reason you need a written confirmation is precisely because not every immigration officer is aware of every rule. As a matter of fact, the last time I went there for a finish up and checkride, the immigration officer claimed that I didn't need the B1/B2, and that a visa waiver / esta would have sufficed. That is in contradiction with information you find on the US State Department website, where they say that any short course enrollment requires at least a B2.

Bottom line : you don't want to complicate your life if you don't have to, but you also want to cover your bases if you need to.

I must say I'm a bit fed up with all this stupid scaremongering. We all should strive to help out fellow pilots and fellow students whatever stage in their career or whatever their level of competence.

[Gomrath]

@ Gomrath - think you may be correct with this in majority but not all scenarios.

Consider this:
Step 1: Do your private with M1 & TSA from SEVIS approved school.
Step 2: Rent an aircraft following completion of your private to fly around:
I do not believe that has to be at the same school?

Re read what rudestuff wrote.. He refers to undertaking 'additional training' - he make no mention of "flying around".
So your scenario does not come into play based on the question asked.

The reference that BigGrecian is making regarding B1/B2 visas is here from a document from the Department of Justice.
www.eandvh.com/engine/pubs/getdoc.aspx?id=40&dl=1 (http://www.eandvh.com/engine/pubs/getdoc.aspx?id=40&dl=1)

[Another]

True, not disputing that. think its just a matter of semantics.

rudestuff did not specify what kind of training he was referring to.
obviously IFR/ME etc. are not permitted. (and thats what he probably meant,yes)

but renting a plane at another school to do practice approaches after getting an IR would feel like is additional training to me... and should be fine and legal under visa requirements.

[rudestuff]

To clarify, my example would be someone who wanted to do a PPL and an IR.

A Sevis registered school is likely to be more expensive than one which is not, so I was wondering if you could use them to get the M1 visa and do the PPL training - then once you've finished and have 30 days to leave the country, get the IR done at a cheaper school (The ones in the Midwest seem to be half the price of the Florida ones) Sounds like it's a no then!

[B2N2]

A Sevis registered school is likely to be more expensive than one which is not

Rubbish, there is absolutely no evidence to substantiate that claim.
In order for a school to be SEVIS approved it needs to be FAA Part 141 approved. This has to do with more stringent record keeping requirements.

Besides, under Part 141 you can do the IR right after the PPL, with Part 61 you need 50 hrs of PIC Cross country time before you can take your IFR checkride.
So per definition, a Part 141 PPL+ IR is 50 hrs. cheaper then a Part 61 PPL+ IR.
I'll leave it to you to add it up....


M1 visa and do the PPL training - then once you've finished and have 30 days to leave the country, get the IR done at a cheaper school

The school were you do your PPL is required to notify SEVIS that you training is completed. You are therefore no longer allowed to undertake any training since the training for which the visa was issued has been completed.
What you suggest will get you a visit from TSA and ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) followedd by a free trip to the airport for your return home.
Keep in mind that immigration violations will get you on the "No Entry" list for up to 10 years.

Here's the good news:
You may change schools and keep the original visa if you decide to do so WITHIN 6 MONTHS of entering the USA.
You originally choose school A for your training and after 3 months you feel you may be better off by moving to school B.
School A is REQUIRED to transfer you to school B in the SEVIS system.
School B will issue the necessary paperwork, accept you in SEVIS and the training merrily carries on at school B.
Obviosly school B also needs to be SEVIS approved.

[razzy]

Hi all. This thread has been extremely useful to me in searching for answers to my situation, but I'm still a little confused.

I'm an Indian citizen pursuing full-time flight training in India (CPL-ME-IR). We're going to have weather-related time off for two-three months from Jun-Sep (the monsoon season), and there will hardly be any flying that takes places. I was considering visiting a very close friend in the US during that period (two months - Jul to Aug), and undertaking some training while there. The flying bit is not going to be my main purpose of visit but a nice extra if feasible.

I've presently flown 75 hours in India, 36 dual and 29 solo, but don't have a PPL certificate. For that I need to fly a 150nm navigation flight with two full-stop landings. With the prevailing weather conditions here we're not allowed to go beyond 125nm. Considering all that I might need to get trained a little about the US airspace differences and maybe in variations in navigation procedures.

The school I've spoken-to are saying that my Indian hours will count towards an FAA PPL. Since I've already flown more than the minimums for an FAA PPL, I'm assuming I might only need to fly a few checkrides with a CFI at the school, and spend some ground-time for the navigation exercises, apart from actually flying the nav-exes.

Will I require an M1 visa for these? I'm guessing all this will not take me more than 15 hours of flying. I have a valid B1/B2 on my passport, and have visited the US previously in 2010.

I'm going to get the TSA authorisation for sure under the AFSP, but am unsure about the visa requirements. I'm willing to not apply for a PPL if that allows me to get-by on the B2. What I learn is more valuable to me than a certificate. Will Part 61 schools be open to me in case the B2 works?

[Gomrath]

I'm assuming I might only need to fly a few checkrides with a CFI at the school, and spend some ground-time for the navigation exercises, apart from actually flying the nav-exes.

You assume incorrectly.
You will a FAA Medical and you must complete the FAA written exam. The FAA Checkride also consists of ane indepth oral exam which you have to pass before completing the actual flight portion.
The thread provides all the information that you need on what the visa requirements are. If you are still confused - best read it again and read the attachment that I provided in my previous post.

[proudprivate]

For the VISA, I would ask the specific question to the US Consulate and get a written answer. Provide them with the name of the training facility, indicate that the facility is TSA approved and you'll apply as soon as you have confirmation from them, and that the total amount of training would be limited to xxx flight hours and yyy hours of ground school over a 2 week period only.

My guess would be that, provided the training programme would be a 1-2 week finish up at a part 61 unit, the B1/B2 would suffice for them, assuming it's valid for 10 years (i.e. until 2020).


VFS New Delhi: [email protected]
([email protected])VFS Helpline: +91-(0)120-661-1411


Now, as far as the FAA PPL itself is concerned, indeed you do need
- FAA third class medical
- FAA written test passed (I don't think there is an authorised centre near India, so would have to sit the test in the US near your flight school), although with your flying experience, studying for that wouldn't be too hard.
- FAA oral exam, which is hard. Reading the ASA book is a good start there.
My guess is that it would take you some non negligeable amount of regulation study (assuming you're familiar with all the other topics) and that this might be quite an effort if you then don't have a direct use for the FAA PPL.

If you're only out to get the long cross country, I would follow the same strategy as regards VISA, TSA etc... That wouldn't take more than a week with aircraft / airspace familiarisation. And the probability that the Embassy people would say yes goes from 75% to 95%.

[BigGrecian]

You could ask the embassy but they're not the ones who enforce regulations and any course of study is PROHIBITED explicitly in the B1/B2 laws nor have any jurisdiction when your actually here in the USA.

See previous posts.

Any school to take you would be stupid to train you with a B1/B2.

[razzy]

Thank you both for your responses.
M1 it is. I'll steer clear of any further suggestions to train on a B1/B2.

[proudprivate]

The "B1/B2 laws" ? Consular officers having no jurisdiction ? Now, now...

When reading the relevant CFR paragraphs, you quickly end up with asking yourself "What is a course of study" - see my post of 6th May.

It is very debatable whether a "finish up" programme where you only need a couple of hours of aircraft/airspace familiarization + maybe 1 or 2 topics in the syllabus that need refreshing is a "course of study".

I've used my B1/B2 with full knowledge of both the consular officer in my country and the immigration officers at the port of entry that I was (going to) enter the US for business or pleasure and was going to receive some flight training, leading to an FAA certificate (I had announced that I was finishing up and going for the check ride).

By contrast, if you are having one week of flight training on an M1, and then visit your relatives for 3 weeks, you might have a problem, because the M1 is supposedly for a "full course of study", which you then are not attending.

What you guys fail to see is the purpose of it all. The immigration status M1 vs B1/B2 distinction is to avoid that foreigners enter the US and enroll in full blown courses (like ab initio to CPL/ME IR) while claiming to be a tourist.

The security threat in relation to flight training by foreigners (aliens) is monitored by the TSA, which is why for most flight training categories towards certain certificates, you need TSA approval, also for 1 or 2 week training stints.


Any school to take you would be stupid to train you with a B1/B2.

Depends on what you mean by "school". A part 61 unit with TSA approval could be precisely what rassy needs, especially if he's just looking for someone assisting him with his long cross country towards his Indian PPL.

And they would be happy with his business.

[BigGrecian]

Just because it's worked for you previously doesn't mean it's legal.

I've seen a part 61 raided in Florida and all those on waivers and B1s were "offered" the ability to depart the USA within 24 hours or go through deportation proceedings - I'll give you once guess what they chose.

The law is extremely clear and they don't hesitate to enforce it.

(7) Enrollment in a course of study prohibited. An alien who is admitted as, or changes status to, a B–1 or B–2 nonimmigrant on or after April 12, 2002, or who files a request to extend the period of authorized stay in B–1 or B–2 nonimmigrant status on or after such date, violates the conditions of his or her B–1 or B–2 status if the alien enrolls in a course of study.

The term course of study has nothing to do with maintaining 18 hours of study etc etc - that is the requirements to fulfill the M1/F1 continued status.

By contrast, if you are having one week of flight training on an M1, and then visit your relatives for 3 weeks, you might have a problem, because the M1 is supposedly for a "full course of study", which you then are not attending.

This is well within the privileges of a student visa. You may enter upto 30 days prior to your report by date and if you complete your course of study you also have a 30 day grace period.

At the end of the day it's down to your discretion and I know which way I fall given the consequences I first hand witnessed.

[Gomrath]

A "course of study" is well defined in the attached letter that I provided the link to above: Here again ==> http://www.eandvh.com/engine/pubs/getdoc.aspx?id=40&dl=1

quote:
The term "Course of study" implies a focused program of classes, such as a full-time course load leading to a degree, or in the case of a vocational student, some type of certification... Courses with more substance or that teach a potential vocation, such as Flight Training, would be considered part of a "course of study" and would thus require approval or a student status.

So go form your own opinion.

[proudprivate]

Just because it's worked for you previously doesn't mean it's legal.


You are inferring that I hid something from either the consular officer or the immigration officer at the point of entry. I did not, and I have written evidence that I did not.

People who enter the US on a visa waiver and take flight training violate immigration laws, even if it is a couple of hours. People who enter the US on a B1/B2 and take flight training do not.

In the definition of course of study, the key element from Gomrath's reference is


a full-time course load [...] leading to a degree or some type of certification


which is why they clarify it with the 18 hour / week description, so I disagree with your BigGrecian's claim that


The term course of study has nothing to do with maintaining 18 hours of study etc etc

The guidance document that Gomrath quotes actually predates the TSA-approval process. A lot has happened since then...


So go form your own opinion


Here is mine :
- if you enter the US for an ab initio PPL training, with the intention of going all the way to the checkride, you are entering a "course of study", leading up to certification so you cannot do that on a B1/B2-visa. I'm sure that if you asked the Embassy, they would say no.

- if you enter the US for 10 hours of flight training, with the aim of getting your long cross country out of the way during the Indian rain season, you can do that on a B1/B2. I'm sure that, if you asked the Embassy, they would confirm this.

- as for things in between those, it clearly depends : Two weeks of study towards a PPL, without certification, can be done on a B1/B2. The same goes for 1 week finishing up and doing the PPL checkride. Or adding a multi-engine rating to your existing commercial certificate.

- clear no-no's would be : an EMB-195 type rating course; a complete instrument rating course;


I've seen a part 61 raided in Florida and all those on waivers and B1s were "offered" the ability to depart the USA within 24 hours or go through deportation proceedings - I'll give you once guess what they chose.


The only raids I know of were schools where B1 visa holders were CFIs making a few bob on the side. No surprise that US Immigration sent those guys/gals packing, and rightfully so ! That was in California, but I imagine it also has happened in Florida.

But for those B1s not on the work roster, unless they had booked a full time schedule for the next x weeks, clearly indicating "enrollment in a full course of study", US Immigration would face an uphill struggle with their deportation proceedings.

[razzy]

Based on the additional information given by you, ProudPrivate, I've written to the US Embassy, requesting them for confirmation of the visa I can legally travel on for finishing my PPL requirements (carried forward from India). The only trouble is that I wrote to them three weeks ago and they haven't said anything till now.

If they don't respond by the end of the week I think I'll move forward with M1 processing, which will take some time to get done.

[Gomrath]

which is why they clarify it with the 18 hour / week description, so I disagree with your BigGrecian's claim that


What you may have omitted was the comment"

quote:
"..Courses with more substance or that teach a potential vocation, such as flight training, would be considered part of a "course of study" and thus would require approval of a student status. ..."

So in that instance 18 hours is irrelevant.

[pj99]

reading this thread yonks back , i was concerned about going to the states to train for a ppl ....

i had got my tsa clearance ,, and the school ( actually its more like a club) which trained me was ready to teach me...


some weeks before flying out , by chance i came across this thread - "m1 visa required" ,,,,

the school which i got tsa clearance is not on servis or sevis - more importantly theyd never even heard of sevis/ servis - and definatley could nt issue me the i 20 form ....

feeling that id just chucked the best part of £250-£300 down the drain on a useless tsa clearance - i bought a plane ticket and went away ......

going wvs all the way !


2 and half months later - ive got my ppl ,,,




i did worry at first ,but as the hrs built up , i soon stopped ,,,

if i could have got an m1 visa - i would have done ,,,- but since the school was in the strange position of being on the tsa books ( registered provider) , but yet unable to do m1 visas - i had no choice ....plus ,, i really liked the look of the school (and the hrs were cheap)


interested to know of others with same experience....

[GoAroundAgain1]

How would you go about getting the M1 visa if you were either out there on a visa waiver or working visa? I plan on being in Florida for the winter while i am there I am going to get my PPL. I dont know yet if I'm going to go over on a visa waiver or if im going to go over for a year or two and work(non-avi related)

What do ye suggest??

[pj99]

cant help u mate - the nearest i got to an m1 was a call to the embassy - i believe that strictly speaking if you are going to the states on a vwp - you havent even got a visa in the first place -certainly not a visa to change anything into - in this case an m1...
perhaps if you had a b1 visa (which i think is still a tourist visa of sorts ) you could change it to something whilst you are out there - but since vwp is nt actually a visa (hence the "waiver" bit) youve got nothing to change it to...

to be honest it does all seem a waste of time ... tsa checks is one thing ,,, checking if youre dodgy or not ... well n good - but why the hassle and expensive of replicating this check again for a pox*y m1?- especially if your from ,,, dare i say ,,, a so called ally ??

i

[OldCrow01]

Hi Guys,

OK here we go. I am new on this forum.
We have an issue with flight schools in the USA regarding I-20/M1 visa. Two flight schools, two opinions/interpretations.
I am inbetween them and need a verifyable document/reference about the official view of the US authorities.
I support a foreign student for his flight training and recently we changed to an other flight school.
The new school can not issue an I20, the old school will cancel the I20 that they supplied us with during our visa request about half year ago. We got an M1 visa. TSA approval is OK. Visa status is at doubt.
New school says; I20 not required, continue training with us.
Old school says; I20 cancelled, so leave the country within 15 days.
I need HELP SOON to figure this out.
1) Does the cancellation of the I-20 has yes/no consequences for the student?
2) Can the student stay at the new school, with a cancelled I-20, but with his present valid and correct visa?
3) Does the student risk deportation if we continue at the new school?
4) Is he in any way in a illegal status right now or if he continues to stay in the USA with a cancelled I-20?

Thanks.

[peterh337]

I don't drop in here often, but I went through this in 2006 for my FAA IR (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/faa-pplir/index.html) (there are some TSA/Visa notes in that article; not necessarily up to date) and it's amazing that the same arguments go round and round 6 years later.

Do be careful with getting the I-20 and then changing schools.

When I started on the FAA IR in 2005 (the FAA PPL and CPL I did in the UK, at now defunct outfits) I was going to go to a US Part 141 school called CRM, who used a UK instructor as their "agent" here. They refused to communicate with me directly (as I found out too late). I went through the Visa process with them and they sent the I-20 to the instructor's UK address. No problem, but he was abroad for a while so the I-20 got lost.

I then cut my losses and did another I-20 with the school I eventually used (Chandler Air Service at KCHD). They were great and I completed the IR there no problem.

2 years later I flew to the USA for a 2-day private visit. The Immigration official found on his computa' the original CRM Visa, with a note (from CRM apparently) that I started training but did not complete. His little brain went Click Click Click (his last job was MacDonalds but this time he had a big gun) and he thought "this man trained to fly and not land". I got taken away and got a disgusting interrogation, in a room full of Africans who looked like they stowed inside some 747 landing gear, who were periodically yelled at by the guards, etc. I tried to talk to the 2 staff members present who were going through some paperwork but they were exMcD too (thick as a plank). 3 hours later I got out of there, accompanied by a Customs guard who did have a brain. I explained to him (as I tried with the others) that it would be trivial for them to check faa.gov and see that I had the IR, completed the training, etc. He may have been ex-McD too but hey he knew what "internet" was and he said they have no access to the internet :ugh:

Luckily my connecting flight was 4 hours later so I didn't miss it.

After my return to the UK I tried to communicate with CRM to get this sorted. I was told by TSA (?) that only CRM can remove that "training incomplete" comment, but they refused to co-operate. TSA and Immigration refused to help.

Now I have a new passport without the M1 Visa stuck in it, so maybe I might risk entering the USA again :)

Unlike many Europeans, I am not at all anti-American (I do business with them all the time) but they do need a better system... and you need to be very careful changing schools if you have already got the M1 in the passport.

[Gomrath]

1) Does the cancellation of the I-20 has yes/no consequences for the student?
2) Can the student stay at the new school, with a cancelled I-20, but with his present valid and correct visa?
3) Does the student risk deportation if we continue at the new school?
4) Is he in any way in a illegal status right now or if he continues to stay in the USA with a cancelled I-20?

(1) Yes - once the Visa is cancelled - you are out of status and have to leave.
However, it is unusual for a Flight School to simply 'cancel' a visa if you are in good standing with that Flight School. If however, they felt you were not maintaining the required standard - or if you missed lessons etc - then they are within their right to terminate your visa.
(2) No - once your I-20 and therefore the visas in passport with the original School is canceled then you are out of status and must leave the US.
(3) Yes - most certainly. No visa then you are considered out of status and can be removed from the US.
(4) No - you need to leave the US and commence the process again to apply for a new visa and a fresh TSA submission.

[OldCrow01]

Thanks guy for the messages.
So we are in big :mad:
Two more things keep me now busy:
5) We are inbetween two camps now. Can you supply us with documents / references that show the official standpoint of the lawmaker?
6) Can the old school undo the cancellation of the I-20? Or do we have to go back to the home country and start the whole I-20 / visa process all over again?
I have made the same questions to the AFSP and DHS.
No answer yet.

[B2N2]

I support a foreign student for his flight training and recently we changed to an other flight school.
The new school can not issue an I20, the old school will cancel the I20 that they supplied us with during our visa request about half year ago. We got an M1 visa. TSA approval is OK. Visa status is at doubt.
New school says; I20 not required, continue training with us.
Old school says; I20 cancelled, so leave the country within 15 days

What does the "support" portion mean?
If the new school cannot issue an I-20 you cannot train there since you cannot get a visa without an I-20.
If your "student" has been in the country for more then 6 months, with or without an I-20 there can be no change as this is only allowed within 6 months of entry.

Hans, understand two things:
The school is held responsible for the person holding the visa.
At any time the school can get a call from DHS or TSA asking about the whereabouts of a certain student. The school has to be able to say " student A is flying with Instructor B and they are expected back in two hours" or " student A is at home studying for the PPL written test and he is scheduled again tomorrow at 8"
A school can lose their I-20 issuing authority if they do not keep a tight reign on this.
So if a student fails to show and or intends to do training at a school which is not authorized to do so they HAVE to cancel the I-20.

A M-1 visa is nothing but a vocational study visa, it can apply to lots of different courses of study and is NOT exclusively an Aviation training visa.

Form I-20 is a United States Department of Homeland Security, specifically ICE and SEVP, document issued by colleges, universities, and vocational schools that provides supporting information the issuance of a student visa or change of status (F, J and M non-immigrant statuses). Since the introduction of the Student and Exchange Visitor Information System (SEVIS) of the Student and Exchange Visitor Program, the form also includes the student tracking number (SEVIS number) for the student and program.



So the Visa MUST be accompagnied by an I-20 in order to be valid.
Example:
M-1 visa in the passport is valid for a year. If the training course is three months it will state this on the I-20.
When the I-20 expires the visa is no longer valid regardless of the expiration date of the visa.
The same visa could be used again with a different I-20, even from another school if you are still within your first 6 months.

You guys are trying to get into another school that has NO I-20 authority with a cancelled I-20 from a previous school.
Not going to work.
Let us know if we can help.

[OldCrow01]

Thanks agian for the comments, B2N2,

"Support", I mean, I pay for the whole show.
Yep, new school says: can not issue I-20, and is no problem.
Just talked to USCIS and had a reply from DHS / AFS Help.
In short: with a cancelled I-20: LEAVE THE COUNTRY, period.

The new school is wrong.
Now what to do is the next thing;
Can you undo the cancellation of the I-20 by the old school?
Do we need to leave the conutry and start all over again with I-20, etc, etc?
Can we still transfer the cancelled I-20 to a SEVIS approved school (SEVIS approved is essential for any school, I just learned)?


We did not want this situation. He is in the US in order to be the best pilot he can be. He is very happy at the new school, but as it looks now, ned to leave because of the I-20/visa thing.

The situation keeps us busy very much.

[B2N2]

Old Crow, I will send you a PM in order not too clog up this thread.

[nch334]

Hello gentlemen i need to know ASAP from anyone but particulaly from B2N2 if there has been any changes in visa requirements for TSA CAT 4 flight training status for aliens :confused:. In the recent past i have been admitted into the USA under B1/B2 visa for recurrent training but am now uncertain and unable to communicate with the relevant authorities to clarify. Please i need feedback from the Prune community. Cheers :(

[Gomrath]

if there has been any changes in visa requirements for TSA CAT 4 flight training status for aliens
No known change.
However only the US authorities can provide a definitive response.

[nch334]

Thanks for the feedback Gomrath but part of the problem is establishing a clear channel of communications with the authorities. Most of the lines of comms are essentialy one way through auto response computers and the embassies and consulates are inaccessable as sources of info.:ugh:
A little thread drift here am trying to locate any B727 simulators that are outside North America have tried other threads but the info is outdated.
Any one out there in the know? Thanks again:ok:

[Danauk]

Can someone tell me about getting a CPL in USA ? I hold a UK PPL and I'm trying to go to USA and get a CPL! I don't have any information about how things work over USA , basically I'm hopping to get a license where I can work for airliner in countries where the accept FAA license ! And I would like to gt some information regarding visas or changing my jaa ppl to USA ppl what r the procedures ? Can someone please write to me and explain what do I need to do?,! Thanks everyone

[Suthers]

Hey Everyone,
Im new on here and have been reading up alot on taking my PPL in FL and i have picked my FTO, sorted my medical and i am just about to start the visa process.

Before i do this i just want to check that i cant use my C1/D or B1/B2 visa that i already have as i am cabin crew for an airline?

Im sorry if this has been answered before

Thanks

[B2N2]

For sure not on a B1/B2 business/visitor visa.
A C1/D crew visa is also no good.

I find it somewhat surprising that you have picked your FTO and only now this comes up?

[Suthers]

Thanks very much.
I never really gave my visa much thought before as i use it for work but i just wanted to double check this was the case.

[m4sT3R]

Another one stupid question regaring flight training and business visa.

I'm holding B1/B2 visa. I'm going to visit the US in the nearest future for business needs. I'm going to stay for about 2 months and I'd like to spend my free time for private pilot license training.

Ok, it is not legal with my visa. I can't change my visa to M1 because I'm going for business needs and I won't be able to attend at Part 141 school.

Is there any legal step towards private pilot certification in my case?
Can I take some hours training without certification (of course with TSA clearance)?
Can I get some other kind of certification? For example, recreational or sport pilot.

Thanks for help!

[B2N2]

Why would you not be able to attend a Part 141 school?
I would say it is a whole lot easier to do your flying on a M1 visa with business on the side then doing your business on a B1/B2 and illegally training.
The school will get a slap on the wrist and the student is eligible for deportation with a visa violation.

Even here you will get answers from people who have done it that way or even claim it is legal but there are playing with fire.
Easy to say its Ok to go do it when you are not the one to be deported.
Despite all teh grey areas or percieved holes in the laws; training towards the issuance of a license or rating requires the correct visa.

On Friday, April 12, 2002, the Department of Justice (DOJ) issued an Interim rule through the Federal Register (Vol. 67, No.71) proposing to amend 8 CFR Parts 214 and 248. This amendment requires a change of status from any non-immigrant visitor visa (B-1 or B-2) to a student visa (F-1 of M-1) prior to pursuing a course of study.

[johnnyirvine]

Hi all,

I have read all 10 pages of this post and found it most educational. Thanks so much. I think I have got most of the answers but would appreciate if SoCal App, B2N2 or Gomrath could clarify my particular situation.

I am intending to go to FL, US in July 2013 for family vacation and to do my FAA PPL while there. PPL intended for VFR recreational flying only. I am going for approx 4 weeks. I have quite a bit of aviation experience but hold no qualification and have only a few hours officially logged under CAA.

I have scheduled a FAA Class 2 medical and student licence to take place in a week or so. The flight school I have decided upon (but haven't commited to yet) are Part 141 and can issue an I-20. I realise that I will need M1 Visa and TSA.

I know it was briefly discussed earlier but I just need to clarify if I can do Part 61 training as Part 141 training probably could not be accomlished in my 4 week travel period. I would like to start the ground school at home before travelling, would this allow me to do a Part 61 when I get out there.

Your valuable opinion would be greatly appreciated.:ok:

[SFDOC]

The regulations specifically address training for a certificate or rating. You can fly while you are in the US, but you would need to have either an M1 or F1 to apply for the rating.

We recently went over this with SEVIS and ICE for a similar situation.

[Yeah112]

Visa information

The requirements for obtaining any visa are separate from the requirements of the TSA alien flight training rule.

According to INS regulations, Title 8 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Section 214.2(b)(7), any alien who is permitted to enter the United States on a B-1 or B-2 visitor's status visa is prohibited from enrolling in a course of study. Such an alien must an either obtain an F-1 or M-1 non-immigrant visa from a consular officer abroad and seek readmission to the United States, or apply for and obtain a change of status under section 248 of the Act and 8 CFR part 248. The alien may not enroll in the course of study until the Service has admitted the alien as an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant or has approved the alien's application.

Part 141 Flight Schools. Only FAA Certificated Part 141 and/or 142 schools that are approved and participating in the Student and Exchange Visa Information Service (SEVIS) program are authorized to issue an I-20 form to a prospective student upon their enrollment into a course, which the prospective student needs to request the change of status and receive the subsequent Student Visa.

Part 61 Flight Schools and Independent Flight Instructors. Part 61 flight schools and independent flight instructors may train a foreign national if that alien is a Legal Permanent Resident or in a work status (H-type visa) with extended stay privileges or a refugee in Asylum status with appropriate DHS documentation. They also may train a foreign national on an F-1 (academic visa) provided that the student is still enrolled and attending the college or university as shown on the F-1 and the student has notified SEVIS of the additional training being received at a non-SEVIS approved school.

[Gomrath]

The regulations specifically address training for a certificate or rating. You can fly while you are in the US, but you would need to have either an M1 or F1 to apply for the rating.

Not true. Training may not commence without either the appropriate visa or TSA (if the training in question requires TSA).
A foreign student wanting to undertake training - can only log the flight as a scenic flight - not as training until such time as the visa/TSA is in place.
TSA will not issue the magic words "may commence training' until they are satisfied the visa etc is in place.
The flight school would be held responsible if they were to commence that training without ensuring that paperwork was in place. They are required to take copies of that paperwork and hold them on file in readiness for a subsequent audit.

[cyrilroy21]

Hi everyone

I have a small query regarding the B1/B2 visa

I have been to the US twice before .

The first time was on an M1 visa for flight training . The second time on a B1/B2 visa for about 20-25 hours of flying ( as required by the Indian DGCA to be current before converting a license )

When I went for the visa interview for the B1/B2 visa the interviewer told me that she sees no reason to reject my case however put me on ADMINISTRATIVE PROCESSING , gave me pink slip with a bunch of questions and asked me to email the answers to them .
They withheld my passport with them .

I came back home , emailed the questions and one month later my visa was approved and they sent my passport back home with the annotation CLEARANCE RECEIVED . The visa had a validity of 1 year . Normally they give it for 10 years .

At the time of the interview the consular officer told me to renew the visa before it expires or upto 1 year after it expires and I should receive a B1/B2 visa for 10 years .

I have two questions

1) Should I renew the visa ?
While the visa expired in Dec 2012 , I have until Dec 2013 to decide whether to a get a new one or not .
I have no reason to visit the US in the near future . I have some relatives who have been asking me to come and pay them a visit for quite some time but other than that I have no other reason to present my case to a Consular Officer as to why I want to renew my visa .
I am also afraid that in case my application is rejected it might dampen my chances of getting another visa ( should I need one somewhere down the line )

2) On the visa application form it asks if I have ever been denied a US visa ?While application was not denied , it was put on hold pending a security clearance .
Do i answer YES or NO

All answers will be appreciated :)

[Gomrath]

I have a small query regarding the B1/B2 visa

To be honest nobody can give you any answers here. Only you know your own personal circumstances and you have to make your own decisions.
If the US Embassy/Consulate had cause to investigate your application - they must have had good reason and we don't need to know.

[SFDOC]

Gomrath,

You are correct about the TSA item. I was simply responding to the Visa Question, I should have included that.

Also, as the new user above you (Yeah Right) a Part 61 school can provide M1 Visa training.

The Part 141 language just recently came out, and there are a number of items that Yeah Right did not include.

[Gomrath]

a Part 61 school can provide M1 Visa training

Completely wrong.
A Part 61 school cannot provide M1 Visa training unless they have a Part 141 application in process - for the simple reason that Part 61 School cannot sponsor a foreign student for the issuance of a M1 visa in the first instance.
However a SEVIS approved Part 141 School can train the foreign student under Part 61 regulations if the student wishes.

[awqward]

Yeah112 And Gomrath what do you make of the advice on this website: Visitor Visas - Business and Pleasure (http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html)

It says provided the course does not lead to credit for a degree and is recreational and no more than 18 hours a week a visit/business visa is ok

"if the purpose of your planned travel is recreational in nature, including tourism, vacation (holiday), amusement, visits with friends or relatives, rest, medical treatment, activities of a fraternal, social, or service nature, and participation by amateurs, who will receive no remuneration, in musical, sports and similar events or contests, then a visitor visa (B-2) would be the appropriate type of visa for your travel. If you are going to the U.S. primarily for tourism, but want to take a short course of study which is recreational (and not for credit towards a degree), and*the course is less than 18 hours per week, this is permitted on a visitor visa."

Of course for initial certificate issue (including conversion from 61.75 to standalone certificate, IR or MEL) would require TSA approval (and the school to be TSA registered)....and Part 61 only schools are entitled to register as Provider Admin

The gotcha may be that the TSA will only advise training can commence after it is satisfied that you have a suitable visa...And they, not the INS may be of the opinion that a visitor visa is not acceptable?

[BigGrecian]

Getting a private is hardly recreational study - it is full time, well over 18 hours a week - most of our students study 12-15 hours a day.

It is not incidental to the purpose of your visit.

And immigration know this - there are plenty of people black listed from the USA for this offense.

[awqward]

Getting a private is hardly recreational study - it is full time, well over 18 hours a week - most of our students study 12-15 hours a day.

Yes but if you already have a EASA licence it should only require 5 or 6 hours including the flight test.....and this could easily be something which is incidental to the main purpose of your visit ie business or vacation...

After all, in the post-911 world, the US is more concerned with the training of pilots which is why the TSA undertake background checks....it is not about immigration law (which has not changed)

[nsainesa]

Good day all,

Many thanks for the thread. It is very informative. Thank you. :ok:
I have a little bit of a different situation which I am trying to seek clarity on, please.

I am currently on a F-1 visa with a school working towards my HCPL. I have 20 hours (or so) until 100 hours PIC, when I can apply for the CPL Check Ride (as long as my CFI signs me off). For several reasons and matters of circumstance, I cannot complete my training with my current school and am planning on changing to a different school on a M-1 visa. I have been on the F-1 visa for longer than 6 months, so have been informed that my current school (F-1) that they cannot transfer my SEVIS to the new school (M-1). I have applied for a Change of Status through the Form I-539, but I am not sure this will be approved in time.

My current school has said they will cancel my visa and SEVIS, which means I will need to leave the US and apply for a M-1 visa in my home country. However, I have been told by the new school that I can go to Nassau, Bahamas and re-enter the US on the I-20 which they have already raised for me and there is no need to apply for the M-1 visa. Is this correct?

What about SEVIS? Do I need to reapply? Will it be the same with the TSA?

I have completed my FAA PPL/IR since being in the US. I am only wanting to finish up my CPL before returning to my home country. I am on a UK passport.

I have scheduled an appointment with an Immigration Officer at the USCIS office, but after reading this thread, I have seen that they are not always known to provide incorrect information. I am just trying to line my ducks in a row and am wanting to finish my training in the correct legal manner. I do not want to cause any issues with the respective authorities.

Any information or advice will be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards.

[SFDOC]

Your information is incorrect.

If you got to the SEVIS site;

Study in the States - School Search (http://studyinthestates.dhs.gov/school-search)#

Put in SRT Helicopters, Bakersfield Ca, they will show as approved and they are a Part 61 school, and can issue I-20's.

They were the 1st, and to my knowledge the only Helicopter Part 61 school that has been approved.

There is also a Part 61 school in Florida that is SEVIS approved as well.

There are new regulations coming out that will change that, but a PART 61 school can apply and get approved currently.

[nsainesa]

Thanks SFDOC.

To be honest, I'm pretty much decided on the school in Florida. The school I am wanting to attend is SEVIS approved.

I'm just trying to figure out the best and most convenient way I am complete my HCPL here in the US, without having to return to my home country to apply for a new M-1 visa in order to complete 20-odd hours.

Thank you for your reply though. It is appreciated.

[custardpsc]

nsainesa - if you hold a stand alone FAA Private and are working towards a CPL and only need a few hours remember that you now don't need TSA. If you are entering for hour building and a CPL checkride that would not require a student visa as long as you have finished studying.

[nsainesa]

Thanks for your reply, custardpsc.

So I can leave and re-enter the US on my UK passport on the VWP (Visa Waiver Program)? Is the I-20 still required? SEVIS?
Yes, I hold a stand alone FAA PPL. My attendance at the school will be to finish the minimum hours required and at the same time, fine tuning the manuevers, with the CFI, in preparation for the Check Ride.
What constitutes "finished studying"? I have taken the FAA Commerical written exam already. The only studying I would be doing is "home study" in preparation for the Check Ride. I'm sure that the CFI will have a "ground" session too before signing me off for the Check Ride.

[selfin]

So I can leave and re-enter the US on my UK passport on the VWP (Visa Waiver Program)? Is the I-20 still required? SEVIS?

The I-20-M-N is required only for aliens seeking admission to the United States under an M-class visa. It is not therefore required of or available to aliens entering under the VWP.

My attendance at the school will be to finish the minimum hours required and at the same time, fine tuning the manuevers, with the CFI, in preparation for the Check Ride.

In the broadest sense you are proposing to embark on a course of study. Aliens are required to obtain the appropriate student visa if entering the US with the intention of pursuing any course of study. This point is addressed in a notice from one of the US government departments in a document linked to by a moderator some half a dozen pages back in this thread. In short it is not lawful, in terms of my personal interpretation of both the INA and the aforementioned notice (referencing an amendment to the CFR), to enter the US under the VWP to indulge in a course of study. SEVIS registration is required of persons entering under M-class (non-academic) and F-class (academic) visas.

What constitutes "finished studying"? I have taken the FAA Commerical written exam already. The only studying I would be doing is "home study" in preparation for the Check Ride. I'm sure that the CFI will have a "ground" session too before signing me off for the Check Ride.

In my opinion (the relevant federal agency may very well adopt a different one) this (and your remark I have quoted above) constitutes being instructed and thus because a course of study is sought you ought to be using an M-class visa.

[nsainesa]

Many thanks, selfin.
I have a clearer understanding now. Much appreciated.

[custardpsc]

There would seem to be no issue for admission under ESTA/VWP to take a cpl checkride, nor indeed cpl 'training' especially given that there is no formal requirement to enrol in a course for cpl training nor are you intending to nor do you need any formal training. It would seem to be considered in the same light as hour building / BFR/ rental check etc.Hour building is actually what you need anyway and that is clearly permitted. I had no problem entering for a vacation and a visit to friends this month which included 18 hours of CPL training in a week and was due to take the checkride but didn't as I ran out of time. I will be back to take the ride next time I have occasion to be in the usa. If you have a stand alone PPL FAA you are definitely exempt TSA for cpl training and thus no need for an M1 visa or the 120 form that preceeds it for that reason. Likewise you don't need a SEVIS school . In fact if you think about it you don't need a school at all. Just get your current instructor to endorse you now for the three hours training required within 60 days, rent an aircraft anywhere you like, fly the 20 hrs pic and make a booking with a DPE within 60 days. That is all you need.What is probably needed is to leave as you are out of status on your m1 visa and to reenter under VWP for a fortnight to get finished. You should seek advice about that, I am no expert on M1 out of status but I imagine you are under a duty to leave once you are out of status. Nothing to stop you applying for an ESTA and going to mexico/canada etc for the day and reentering under VWP although you would need to be ready to explain what you are doing in detail and back it up with the relevant paperwork to show I was honest and genuine and intending to return to my home country. In your position that is probably I would do and I'd have a return ticket home to uk already booked and printed out to show them. You could also seek advice on how quickly you need to leave once out of status and if less than say ten days you coudl get 20 hours and a checkride done in that time anyway.

There is plenty of advice about what is and isn't permitted on VWP type entry and short courses of study that are incidental to your vacation are permitted, but in fact you are not even studying, just undertaking a practical examination. The written does also fall into the same category, perfectly acceptable to sit a written whilst on holiday. Of course you may get a difficult immigration officer on the day but my experience is that if you are genuine, have a return ticket, solvent and genuinely intending to return home after your stay you will be welcomed. I'd leave and renter for a vacation and some hour building personally, nothing to stop you taking the ride if you then wish. You'll find plenty of advice across the internet from people who recirculate the same theories about visas but very few of them have actually been there or done it even once, you need to draw your own conclusions about what is right and only your own detailled study of the rules will actually work, tempered with common sense and honesty. Hope it works out for you.

[selfin]

If you have a stand alone PPL FAA you are definitely exempt TSA for cpl training and thus no need for an M1 visa or the 120 form that preceeds it for that reason.

The TSA security threat assessment required of certain persons prior to their receiving flying training is established separately to immigration regulations requiring aliens who seek a "course of study" to obtain the appropriate student visa. In all circumstances requiring a threat assessment it is irrelevant whether the training is received within the jurisdiction of the United States (Sec 612 of Vision 100 - Century of Aviation Reauthorization Act). The immigration and threat assessment requirements must therefore be viewed as distinct requirements imposed upon certain persons.

The case in point is whether an alien wishing to acquire a professional FAA airman certificate in the United States, which does not necessarily give rise to a requirement for a TSA threat assessment, is mandated by US federal regulations to seek admission under an appropriate student visa. The basis for determining this requirement comes down to the interpretation of the words "course of study." Considering the popularity of this thread I think it is important for us to explore the two possibilities as dictated by an individual's personal training requirements. I should first like to address this point:

There is plenty of advice about what is and isn't permitted on VWP type entry and short courses of study that are incidental to your vacation are permitted

In May 2002 the Office of Inspector General published a Special Report, Special Report (http://www.justice.gov/oig/special/0205/index.htm) , in which is it stated that training, incidental to a vacation, may be pursued by an alien admitted as a visitor (B-class visa). Footnote 10 to Ch. 2(III). Nevertheless on 12th April 2002 the Executive Associate Commissioner of the Office of Field Operations at the Department of Justice issued a memorandum on the subject of aliens being required to change their status from B-class to F- or M-class prior to commencing a course of study. The memorandum can be viewed here http://www.eandvh.com/engine/pubs/getdoc.aspx?id=40&dl=1

The memorandum starts by stating:

On April 12, 2002, an interim rule was published in the Federal Register (copy attached) that eliminates the ability of a B nonimmigrant (both B-1 visitors for business and B-2 visitors for pleasure) to begin a course of study at a United States school without first obtaining approval from the Immigration and Naturalization Service (Service) to change nonimmigrant status to that of either F-1 or M-1 student. The interim rule was effective upon publication.

Returning to the interpretation of "course of study" I refer to the second page of the memorandum under "Supplemental Guidance" which states (my underlining):

... The term "course of study" implies a focused program of classes, such as a full-time course load leading to a degree or, in the case of a vocational student, some type of certification. Casual, short-term classes that are not the primary purpose of the alien's presence in the United States, such as a single English language or crafts class, would not constitute a "course of study." Courses with more substance or that teach a potential vocation, such as flight training, would be considered part of a "course of study" and thus would require approval of a student status;

In the broadest interpretation of this memorandum it is necessary for an alien pursuing training in flying to be under an F- or, as will be more usual in this case, an M-class visa. Specific reference to the terrorist attacks of September 11th is made on the first page of the memorandum and it is therefore reasonable to be less lenient in interpreting "course of study" in connection with flying training.

The relevant federal regulations are:

8 CFR 214.2(b)(7) Enrollment in a course of study prohibited. An alien who is admitted as, or changes status to, a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant on or after April 12, 2002, or who files a request to extend the period of authorized stay in B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant status on or after such date, violates the conditions of his or her B-1 or B-2 status if the alien enrolls in a course of study. Such an alien who desires to enroll in a course of study must either obtain an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant visa from a consular officer abroad and seek readmission to the United States, or apply for and obtain a change of status under section 248 of the Act and 8 CFR part 248. The alien may not enroll in the course of study until the Service has admitted the alien as an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant or has approved the alien's application under part 248 of this chapter and changed the alien's status to that of an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant.

and,

8 CFR 248.1(c)(3) A nonimmigrant who is admitted as, or changes status to, a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant on or after April 12, 2002, or who files a request to extend the period of authorized stay as a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant on or after such date, may not pursue a course of study at an approved school unless the Service has approved his or her application for change of status to a classification as an F-1 or M-1 student. USCIS will deny the change of status if the B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant enrolled in a course of study before filing the application for change of status or while the application is pending.

The individual above has stated,

My attendance at the school will be to finish the minimum hours required and at the same time, fine tuning the manuevers, with the CFI, in preparation for the Check Ride.

That flying which involves (1) refresher training, (2) aeroplane checkouts, and, (3) hour building, does not require a student visa because these components are not parts of a "course of study." Separately there is no TSA security threat assessment required to participate in those ventures. However, the individual states clearly that he will be "fine tuning the manuevers (sic), with the CFI." Since he has not provided detailed information about his flying training history it is unclear whether the manoeuvres should include, for example, ground reference manoeuvres for which a European pilot shall require training. If he has satisfied all of the formal training requirements then he may be exempted from the requirement to undergo a pre-test preparation flight (cf 14 CFR 61.39(c)(6)) if he holds a commercial pilot licence, granted by one of the ICAO Contracting States, conferring upon him privileges comparable to those of an FAA commercial pilot certificate.

The second possibility, namely the case in which a student visa is not required, is determined by the relevant FAA regulations which specify when "training" is required.

More on this topic on page 7 of this thread (post #126, 04-DEC-2011, et seq.)

[Ka8 Flyer]

Hi,
I'm a little unclear about the visa requirements.
I'm traveling to the US in the summer for business and a little sightseeing for 5 weeks.
I also want to take a few flight lessons ultimately to get a FAA PPL but I won't get more than 20-25 hours in 2 weeks.

I know I need to get the TSA AFSP approval but what about the visa? (I'm eligible for the VWP program)

[custardpsc]

Short answer: you need an m1 visa. Longer answer, you might want to read the thread through again or in more detail, given that the title of the thread is what you are aking about and the answer to your situation is fully discussed within.

[Ka8 Flyer]

Hi Custard,

I did read the thread and even after your answer I'm not really smarter than before.
The reason: all flight schools I have contacted are saying:
- I don't need a visa if I just want to do a few flight lessons
- I could take part in 141 training for which they could issue the I-20 form (and I could get a M-1 visa from a consulate), but in this case the training would need to be full time and strictly according to their syllabus.

Since my main purpose of travel is not flight training nor will I stay in one place during my visit, I don't think the M1 visa is right for me.

What else is there?

[selfin]

Ka8 Flyer,

Your circumstances fit into the grey area of the poorly worded US visa rules. The INA defines the B- and M1- class visas as follows:

INA: ACT 101 - DEFINITIONS

Sec. 101. [8 U.S.C. 1101] (a) As used in this Act-

[...]

(15) The term "immigrant" means every alien except an alien who is within one of the following classes of nonimmigrant aliens:

[...]

(B) an alien (other than one coming for the purpose of study or of performing skilled or unskilled labor or as a representative of foreign press, radio, film, or other foreign information media coming to engage in such vocation) having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning and who is visiting the United States temporarily for business or temporarily for pleasure;

[...]

(M) (i) an alien having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning who seeks to enter the United States temporarily and solely for the purpose of pursuing a full course of study at an established vocational or other recognized nonacademic institution (other than in a language training program) in the United States particularly designated by him and approved by the Attorney General, after consultation with the Secretary of Education, which institution shall have agreed to report to the Attorney General the termination of attendance of each nonimmigrant nonacademic student and if any such institution fails to make reports promptly the approval shall be withdrawn,

[...]

[...]

[...]



8 CFR 214.1 defines "full course of study" for the F- (academic) and M- (vocational/non-academic) visa classes. For the M-class of visa:

§ 214.2 Special requirements for admission, extension, and maintenance of status.

[...]

(m) Students in established vocational or other recognized nonacademic institutions, other than in language training programs —(1) Admission of student —(i) Eligibility for admission. A nonimmigrant student may be admitted into the United States in nonimmigrant status under section 101(a)(15)(M) of the Act, if:

[...]

(9) Full course of study. Successful completion of the course of study must lead to the attainment of a specific educational or vocational objective. A “full course of study” as required by section 101(a)(15)(M)(i) of the Act means—

[...]

(iii) Study in a vocational or other nonacademic curriculum, other than in a language training program except as provided in § 214.3(a)(2)(iv), certified by a designated school official to consist of at least eighteen clock hours of attendance a week if the dominant part of the course of study consists of classroom instruction, or at least twenty-two clock hours a week if the dominant part of the course of study consists of shop or laboratory work; or

[...]

(v) On-line courses/distance education programs. No on-line or distance education classes may be considered to count toward an M-1 student's full course of study requirement if such classes do not require the student's physical attendance for classes, examination or other purposes integral to completion of the class. An on-line or distance education course is a course that is offered principally through the use of television, audio, or computer transmission including open broadcast, closed circuit, cable, microwave, or satellite, audio conferencing, or computer conferencing.

(vi) Reduced course load. The designated school official may authorize an M-1 student to engage in less than a full course of study only where the student has been compelled by illness or a medical condition that has been documented by a licensed medical doctor, doctor of osteopathy, or licensed clinical psychologist, to interrupt or reduce his or her course of study. A DSO may not authorize a reduced course load for more than an aggregate of 5 months per course of study. An M-1 student previously authorized to drop below a full course of study due to illness or medical condition for an aggregate of 5 months, may not be authorized by the DSO to reduce his or her course load on subsequent occasions during his or her particular course of study.

[...]



[...]

[...]



There is some additional guidance in the Foreign Affairs Manual (9 FAM 41.61 notes):

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/87373.pdf

Page 16 of 37 -


9 FAM 41.61 N9.2-1 B-2 Visa for Visitor Who Will Engage in a Short Course of Study

a. Aliens whose principal purpose of travel (see 9 FAM 41.31 N6.1) is tourism, but
who plan to engage also in a short course of study (less than 18 hours per
week) are properly classified for B-2 visas. You must determine whether the
content of the course qualifies as a short course of study. If the student plans
to spend a week or more of full-time study (more than 18 hours per week),
and/or earns academic credit or completion of an academic program of study in
the United States, then an F-1 or M-1 visa is required. You should annotate the
visa as follows: "STUDY INCIDENTAL TO VISIT; Form I-20, Certificate of
Eligibility for Nonimmigrant (F-1) Student Status-for Academic and Language
Students NOT REQUIRED." (See 9 FAM 41.31 N13.6.)

b. An alien enrolling in such a school may be classified B-2 if the purpose of
attendance is recreational or avocational. When the nature of a school's
program is difficult to determine, you should request from DHS
([email address in original PDF]) the proper classification of the program and whether
approval of Form I-20, Certificate of Eligibility for Nonimmigrant (F-1) Student
Status - for Academic and Language Students, will be more appropriate. (See
9 FAM 41.31 N14.8.)

[...]

9 FAM 41.61 N9.2-2 F-1 or M-1 Visa for Visitor Who Will Engage in a Short Term Program

a. An alien may only qualify for an F-1 or M-1 if he or she is or will be engaging in
a full course of study. If a student plans to spend a week or more of full-time
study (more than 18 hours per week) in the United States, an F-1 or M-1 visa is
appropriate. Currently these students would need a new SEVIS ID and new
Form I-20 for each visit.

[...]



In summary a person admitted under a B-class of visa is not permitted to pursue a course of study (except trivial courses) and a person admitted under an M1-class of visa is required to pursue only a full course of study.

8 CFR 214.2(b)(7) requires persons pursuing a course of study to use an M- or F-class of visa, as appropriate, but does not attempt to define "course of study." The abovementioned DOJ memorandum simply states: "Courses with more substance or that teach a potential vocation, such as flight training, would be considered part of a "course of study" and thus would require approval of a student status."

There is an inconsistency in the visa regulations in as much as persons wishing to pursue short vocational courses which do not satisfy the "full course of study" requirement made in 8 CFR 214.2(m)(9) are offered no legitimate basis on which to be admitted.

The training you intend to pursue - 20 to 25 hours of flying for a US private pilot certificate - should really be done under an M1 visa. Given the choice it is better to fall foul of 8 CFR 214.2(m)(9) than 8 CFR 214.2(b)(7).

[Gomrath]

Your information is incorrect.

If you got to the SEVIS site;

Study in the States - School Search (http://studyinthestates.dhs.gov/school-search)#

Put in SRT Helicopters, Bakersfield Ca, they will show as approved and they are a Part 61 school, and can issue I-20's.

They were the 1st, and to my knowledge the only Helicopter Part 61 school that has been approved.


My information IS correct.

You may want to refer to this short ICE document which states that a school must have Part 141 or have provisionally applied for Part 141 to become or maintain their SEVIS approved status.

http://www.ice.gov/doclib/sevis/pdf/sevp-policy-guidance-flight-training-providers.pdf

If a Part 61 school withdraws their Part 141 application or if their application is denied - then they will lose their interim SEVIS status.
So that school may have interim SEVIS approval - but they won't retain it unless they get full Part 141 status.

[Tjx]

Hi guys

I am going over to USA in June for 6 weeks to study for Flight dispatch licence. I hold a New Zealand passport and can stay in USA up to 90 days under the VWP. I have been told by jeppesen school in denver that i dont need to apply for any visa? But i am still kinda confused !! Can someone here tell me that if i can study in USA for 6 weeks under VWP without having to apply for any kind of visa?

Thanks. :-)

[StOrMsCaTcHeR]

You may study for 6 weeks under VWP, but you will have to register with TSA prior to your arrival in the US, as this is the requirement for all foreign nationals who intend to do any sort of flying in US.

[Gomrath]

Tjx
If you are not flying you won't need TSA.
You need to get it in writing from your training school that you do not need a visa.
You should also check with the US Embassy in your home country.
You are training for a professional licence - and they may want you to get a formal student visa.

Remember, the onus is on you - not the school or anybody else.

[DoubleAIm]

Is a visa and tsa required to do time building in the states if I don't plan on staying overnight in the states?(living in Canada close to the boarder) I already have a Canadian commercial /w medical and a faa private w/ medical, just want to do time building part-time.

[B2N2]

Visa and TSA is NOT required for any of the following:


Recreational flying as a Private Pilot (aka flying holiday)
Flight review
Instrument proficiency check
Check out for rental on a new(to you) airplane type
High performance/Tailwheel/Complex endorsements
G1000/Avidyne or other "Glass" training courses
Aerobatic training courses



as none of these lead to the issuance of a new certificate or license or rating.

[custardpsc]

b2n2 - a couple more to add - commercial (assuming it isnt initial licence), and the private checkride or any writtens. And before any nit pickers start up, that is correct, and I have declared these on entry under esta on various (4 in total) occasions and been let in without any further questions. One could argue that signing up for a commercial course as opposed to adhoc commercial training might need an m1 but why do it that way anyway?

Also, class ratings as opposed to type ratings are often exempt if one has an initial private certificate already.


For what its worth, when I came through dallas this week, I asked the immigration officer what visa would be required for a two or three day type rating or multi course, the answer was B1, and I then said I presume that also means esta is acceptable if one qualifies for that and he said yes.

[Av8tor2112]

Many chose to study with a flight school abroad. To do this you are often required to obtain a visa from the country you wish to study in. In the United States everyone not holding a green card is required to have a student visa or higher. Listed below are different visas you can hold to fly in the Unites States.

M1- Vocational Visa – 1 year and on
Many part 141 flight schools accept international students on M1 visas. This is strictly a student visa and is usually obtained for one year at the time as long as you undergo training. It gives you the privilege of living in the United States and studying with the flight school issuing the visa application. Meaning the school has made a guarantee for you to the INS and you can therefore only study with that particular school on that particular visa.

You cannot work on an M1 visa; this includes part time work to cover your living.

J1 – Foreign Exchange Visa – 2 years
J1 is a visa offered by some flight schools through an exchange program. To you this means studying and later working as a pilot. The real difference from an M1 is that you can do practical job training; working in your trained profession to build more experience (building flight hours in other words).

Practically on a J1 visa you do flight training and are later intended to work as a flight instructor with the school. If you can’t get a job there you will be assisted in finding work elsewhere, but are still guaranteed for by the school issuing the visa and have to report all flying done on a regular basis.

The visa is issued for 2 years (24months) and can only be issued ones in a lifetime. Further to qualify you cannot hold any higher then an FAA private pilot license (PPL) and an instrument rating (IR). Not all countries are qualified for the J1 visa. If the flight school you wish to study with issue J1 visas they will tell if you qualify or not.

F1 – Academic Visa – 1 year and on
This visa is issued by a college or university and covers the length of your study. The benefit this visa has is that after the first year you can work part time to cover your living as long as you stay a full time student. This is done on the discretion of the college/university guaranteeing for your visa. If you want to get a degree in aviation as well as doing flight training it may be an idea to look for a university offering F1 visas.

The visa is not renewed after you graduate and will therefore expire. So if you want to build hours flying you also need to keep studying full time. This can be expensive and you don’t build hours very fast. (source)

US Visas Required for Flight Training
There are two types of U.S. visas available for international students’ flight training: The M-1 Visa and the F-1 Visa. The U.S. Department of Homeland Security requires all international students to conduct all their flight training only at a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) flight school which has been approved under Federal Aviation Regulation (FAR) Part 141. So be sure the U.S. flight school you are considering is an approved FAR Part 141 school.

The M-1 Visa is recommended for students interested in taking individual flight courses. The M-1(I-20 form) allows you to stay in the U.S. for up to 12 months; it can be extended, if needed for training. NOTE: The U.S. tourist visa is NOT allowed for flight training in the U.S.

The F-1 Visa is recommended for students interested in careers as professional pilots and who desire to complete a professional training program, which typically starts with study for a Private Pilot Certificate and progresses through the Commercial Certificate with Instructor Ratings. The F-1 (I-20 form) is 12 months in length and can be extended, if additional time is needed for training. Upon completion of a full professional flight training program, an F-1 Visa enables students (upon application and approval of DHS for your work authorization) to be eligible to work as flight instructors to build additional hours; this allows pilots to build up to 1,000+ hours of flight experience, which is advantageous when applying for employment with airlines.

All non US citizens planning to begin their flight training in USA should notify the flight school of their choice in advance that they intend to start flight training because the flight school also needs to register online with TSA before you begin flight training.

[custardpsc]

Sorry av8tor, you are correct about the scope of the visas, albeit repeating commonly available info that has been done to death on here already, but there are a number of inaccuracies in some of the other things you say

You dont have to go to a part 141 school
Quite a number of flying training tasks require neither a visa nor tsa, nor a green card
A tourist visa IS quite acceptable for some types of training

See b2n2s post for activities acceptable without a visa, he is quite correct about those, some basic research or simply asking an immigration officer will tell you where the truth lies

[HJD]

Just a quick question, i am currently in the USA on an M1 visa and have just completed my Instrument rating and would like to go on for my commercial but would like to change schools to a smaller school. do i have to notify anyone or receive permission to change school for my commercial license and does it have to be a SEVIS approved school? i have read a lot of contradicting information on this topic online. can anyone clear this up???

[custardpsc]

none can really clear it up because the rules are inconsistent and unclear, have a look at my post 19th feb this thread and others either side of it for interpretations of your situation. See also TSA thread

You on't say if you have a full or 61.75 FAA private - that matters to give you a full answer. Plenty posted here and on the tsa thread about that

In your position (current, assume FAA full private) you'd need 10-15 hours - you could probably get it done in 7-10 days - doing it before you leave would be feasible. You are technically out of visa status but you also get some leeway to pack up and leave so you could do it that way

[Gomrath]

i am currently in the USA on an M1 visa and have just completed my Instrument rating and would like to go on for my commercial but would like to change schools to a smaller school. do i have to notify anyone or receive permission to change school for my commercial license and does it have to be a SEVIS approved school?

As soon as you leave a Flight School who are sponsoring your visa - you are immediately out of status. If you want to change schools you need to get that organized whilst still at the first school. Generally it isn't a problem provided you are in good standing with that first school.



You are technically out of visa status but you also get some leeway to pack up and leave so you could do it that way


If you go out of status for giving up' at the first flight school - then there is no 'grace' period for leaving the country.
If you are found to be out of status - you will be 'invited' to leave.
Any flight school taking you on knowing you to be out of status really puts them at risk.

[Marshall300]

If you want to change schools you need to get that organized whilst still at the first school.

What does this process involve? Do you need to send an application somewhere to transfer your SEVIS record? Is there anyone who has done this? I always thought that to change schools while on M-1 you had to leave the US and apply for another visa...

[Gomrath]

What does this process involve?

You have to work with your existing Flight Training School and remain in good standing with them.

[LimaVictor]

I have a question regarding the TSA and MI visa.
Lets say I travel to the USA on a normal tourist visa. I have european passport and I get 3 months unrestricted to go in as a tourist. I plan to go there and travel a couple different states in order to personally go search for a suitable flight school.
Once I found one and decided I want to start my training there, do I need to physicaly leave the USA in order to start the visa process?, or the whole thing can be done with the school already there while I still have my visitors visa valid?
Any input is appreciated. Thanx

[Pashine]

Hi, sorry but I'm new to this, I can't seem to find the thread I posted. I'm from Ireland and saving for my ppl. Doing this I've overstayed my visa and would be much better if I could do it in australia. I'm wondering is it possible without a visa or is it checked before I start!

[no_one]

is this what you are looking for?
http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/522443-flight-training.html

[zondaracer]

Pashine, your missing thread is here:

http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/522443-flight-training.html

[mikee1]

Hi guys

Before u say it... I have searched and looked through pprune, I know its not a new subject etc
I'm a kiwi...looking to head to Miami to do my 0-commercial fixed wing pilots licence, will add some multi hrs too.
Firstly,... I CANNOT for the life of me find a list of sevis approved flight schools!.. just a general list of 100's of institutions.
One of the posts on here listed a link, but alas it must be an old one because it no longer works.

And secondly... the million dollar question... what flight school??
I know.. the best advice is to visit,... but gd ol nz at the bottom of the world is probably going to be a $4000 trip all up!!

Im looking to get faa private, multi comm, instructor, instrument and add some multi package for gd measure...
Will then corss it over back here or more likely ausi where there are more opportunities....

I've spent a few hrs delving thru the info to no real help...

Any advice and feedback would be greatly appreciated... feel free to pm me if you also think that's best.

Thanks guys...

[BigGrecian]

Study in the States - School Search (http://studyinthestates.dhs.gov/school-search)

[dera]

There is an insane amount of trainers, even some private ones, who are allowed to train foreign students. But there are only a handful, Part 141 only(or Part 141/61 both), who can issue your I20 for your visa.

[kevintroy]

My main dilemma is getting a "proof of funding"

how much do you actually need to have in your bank statement to be able to show "proof"?
i have all the money required to start training, but the rest will come the following months after. is there a preferred or safe range to show in your statement?

i am a Filipino (Philippine student) hoping to train abroad.
don't worry, i know all the other requirements :)

[Vovick]

My situation is as follows.
I currently hold FAA foreign based (Russian) Private both fixed and (H) with enough flight time to qualify for CPC (H). All I need to do is the written test and the check ride with mandatory 3 hours pre-check. Can I do it without TSA and under B1/B2?

[Gomrath]

VoVick - As you didn't get TSA approval for your based on certificate, you are required to complete TSA for your first 'official' full certificate.

[Gomrath]

i have all the money required to start training, but the rest will come the following months after. is there a preferred or safe range to show in your statement?

What the USCIS state is that they want to see proof of funds for the entire duration of stay (either from you or your sponsor). They generally won't want to see funds that will only keep you for a couple of months as they don't want you to become a burden in the US.
Also remember that you need to factor in insurance and Health/Medical coverage.

[shinigami]

hello fellow aviators, i have read almost every page on this matter and there are different opinions on this matter.

I would like to ask you about my case. I do have FAA PPL and IR and hence medical certificate. I would like to get SE CPL + ME add-on. couple of part 61 schools gave me a program of 18 hours total flight time for these licenses excluding checkrides. which can be done in 2 weeks. I do have B1/B2 visa. I'll visit US for 2-3 months and this training will take 2 weeks. Is it still illegal to do so? part 141 certified school are much expensive than part 61 schools, that is why i would like to finish my training in one of those.

[oblink]

Hello Guys,

I'm currently holding a FAA CPL/IR/ME and as I did my commercial training on ME, I would like to add the SE add-on.
I just wanted to know if I needed a student visa for this, I just know that I do not need to go through TSA.
I wrote to a FAA office and I didn't get any answer, I checked couple of times on USCIS website but didn't find any answer neither.
It seems difficult to find any official text on my case.
Is there anybody here who could direct me to a text talking about this.

Thanks in advance for your future answer

[faaandeasa]

Hello Guys,

I'm currently holding a FAA CPL/IR/ME and as I did my commercial training on ME, I would like to add the SE add-on.
I just wanted to know if I needed a student visa for this, I just know that I do not need to go through TSA.
I wrote to a FAA office and I didn't get any answer, I checked couple of times on USCIS website but didn't find any answer neither.
It seems difficult to find any official text on my case.
Is there anybody here who could direct me to a text talking about this.

Thanks in advance for your future answer

Grey area as some schools will say that you do but in fact you don't as you already have the commercial license. It's not for the issue of a new certificate. I recently did the same and wasn't required to get M1 visa.

[B2N2]

I wrote to a FAA office

That is completely pointless as the FAA does NOT concern itself with visa's.
Contact the school's administrator.
Laws and rules may have recently changed.

* I don't think you need a visa but check with the school *

[turbopropulsion]

As per the title, I have received some conflicting information which I would like to clear up.

In a nutshell, an F1 visa pertains to an academic course which allows OPT and the M1 is for vocational courses (I've never seen any mentioning of work).

After coming across this website (clearly official and therefore reputable) on point B (under benefits) it is mentioned that work is indeed possible.

M1 Visa - Easily Apply Online - Study in Vocational Institutions in the US (http://usimmigration.visapro.com/M1-Student-Visa.asp#Requirements)

:ugh:

[B2N2]

How a website looks does not make it reputable and yes they condense about 25 pages of visa law into one short paragraph.

You can legally work part-time on campus. You may also work off campus if necessary (with prior approval from the USCIS)

True, however you may only work after gaining approval and in your field of study. You may do so for one month for every 3 months you have studied.
But you still need to apply for approval.
And I really don't see what work you are going to do in 2 months after a 6 month 0- CPL course.
Washing airplanes at the school maybe? :}

Keep in mind that an M1 is not a aviation specific visa. Never has been and never will.
This means that under M1 visa law there are a lot of specifics that do not apply to aviation in any shape or form.
Internship, study field related work etc etc etc.
This is one of the reasons as to why this whole flight training on a visa is so convaluted.

[turbopropulsion]

Well, this is the first time I've come across any work being possible on an M1 after extensive research over the last 6 months! Perhaps I was confusing the issue by associating the M1 visa predominantly with flight training. Nevertheless, thanks for clearing that up.

[kevin777x]

I am currently enrolling at one of the US flight school in the U.S which is also FAA recognized and i am a foreign student. I have yet still to receive the I-20 Form which is more than a week now, since i submitted the cost of estimate to comply. By the way, i would like to ask, if its practical to register all flying courses(CPL,IR,Multi) on TSA all at once? And also, though i will pay for the fingerprints thru them, since they are also a fingerprint collector. the fingerprint will take place there, and im confused if that processed is the same as during your visa processed. Plus, it probably will take a few days to approved my fingerprints and on what i read, you can initial start your training and then once your fingerprint have been approved, you can commence your flight training.

[MartinCh]

You build your profile (lots of personal details, address history, ID details blah blah) and then you submit the 'training request' online, obviously for initial most likely first. Fingerprinting, as long as you keep your profile/name/doesnt get lost in transit before digitised, is 'good for life' for this TSA thing.

Speed of processing depends on where you do it. YOu can do it in few places outside USA, but that's at premium cost. If done at local sheriff's/police&court facility, it's normally within day or two, as long as you got your online side of TSA done. It is bit of question of 'piece of string' length to give specifics.

Regarding starting flying before the permission, well, I'm sure not all adhered to it. OTOH, 'demo'/trial lesson x10 is perfectly legal, as it's not training course per se. You can also hit the self-study, get over jetlag, do bit of socialising etc. If you're on whole zero to hero course, day here or there won't matter much.

Stop worrying about 'week and not in hand yet' I-20. You are aware admin can take day or two, then snail mail from USA to wherever you are. What you can do, is register on TSA website and have all your details there ready, so you have fingeprints done and request filed at earliest opportunity.

[Gomrath]

By the way, i would like to ask, if its practical to register all flying courses(CPL,IR,Multi) on TSA all at once?

If you have reviewed the AFSP website on how to register with the TSA, you may have noticed the comment:
Final Approval Granted: The Candidate has been granted final approval for the training request.
Training must commence within 180 days of approval and finish within 365 days of approval.

So unless you are confident that you will start and complete each course within the stipulated window, you should apply for each course as and when you expect to start.

[BigGrecian]

you can initial start your training and then once your fingerprint have been approved,

Not true.

The email from the TSA states :


THIS EMAIL DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO BEGIN FLIGHT TRAINING, NOR DOES IT INITIATE ANY WAIT PERIODS.


then when you get clearance it will say :

All required information, including fingerprints, associated with the following Request for Training has been received.

Based on information available at this time, the Transportation Security Administration grants Permission to Initiate Training for the following flight training request:


Then once they have the results of your background check it will say :

Based on information available at this time, the Transportation Security Administration grants Final Approval for the following flight training request:

In summary no flying until they have received your fingerprints - that doesn't mean upon completion that means once the TSA receives them - normally a day or two later.

[appfo09]

Hi fellows,

I just wanted to ask something related to the M1 type of Visa.

Last year I visited the US for a short-term course and straight after that I left the US. On the passport page where my VISA was issued it says expiration date 10/2017.

This year in fact very soon I am planning to go back to US to do the Flight Instructor Course.

How the paperwork process will look like this time considering the above?
Do I have to do a new application for the institution i am planning to go?

Any help is appreciated.

Thank you !!

[Gomrath]

The visa issuance is sponsored by the company to whom you are visiting. Once you leave that company (Flight School in your case) the visa is then null and void and when you want to return to the US to a different flight school, you will need to start the visa process again.
Also - the visa expiry date doesn't mean anything - it is the CBP Officer at the port of entry who will determine how long you can stay.
The visa itself simply gets you onto a plane to the US - not how long you can stay.

This is all documented on the USCIS website if you go look.

[BigGrecian]

The visa issuance is sponsored by the company to whom you are visiting. Once you leave that company (Flight School in your case) the visa is then null and void and when you want to return to the US to a different flight school, you will need to start the visa process again.

Not entirely true.

SEVIS provide guidance on this and state the only thing required is a new SEVIS fee if the visa is still valid : Travel | ICE (http://www.ice.gov/sevis/travel#_Toc81222003)

May I re-establish M-1 student status by obtaining a new initial Form I-20 and re-entering the United States?
Yes, you may re-establish M-1 student status. However, in SEVIS, you will be an Initial student. You must pay the I-901 SEVIS fee, and you will lose any time that you have built up towards qualification for practical training.

[Parabungle]

Hi, I have had a number of issues to do with quality at the school I am at here in California.

I am about to leave and transfer out my i20. Friends here in SD who are pilots and members of a local flying club have suggested I use the ESTA program to reenter the USA and study part time with them as a part of my vacation. The planes are a lot cheaper than the schools, the instructors friends.

ESTA is a visa waiver program. I have applied and been accepted. I am studying towards my PPL with an goal of SEL IR commercial. I would finish my PPL part 61, leave the country and then return to do IR and SEL commercial under a SEVIS school.

I am very torn as to whether to go to another part 141 school to finish my PPL, whereby the migration legalities are very clear, (but frankly I feel burned by recent part 141 experience), or whether to go the part 61 route part time. (part time is less than 18 hours per week). I understand that I have to pay for a TSA change of venue. I will be training on the same craft that I named in my initial TSA application.

Looking forward to hearing from anyone who has tried this, or looked into it and decided against.

[BigGrecian]

It says pretty clearly on the US department of state website you cannot study on the visa waiver programme :
Visa Waiver Program (http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/visit/visa-waiver-program.html)

This is backed up by 8 CFR 214.2(b)(7)

It doesn't matter it's part time - it's normally clearly prohibited if you are studying for credit as they call it.

[Gomrath]

BigGrecian.
I believe that if you are sponsored by School A, leave and then wish to return to School B, that you need to get the Visa transferred (assuming that it is still in currency) to the new School and if you were in good standing with the previous School A..
I do not believe that you can just walk into School B - as they are not your sponsor according to the Visa in the passport.
The Sponsor is basically responsible for your time in the US.
That was the point I was making.

[sleary]

I am in the following situation.

1. I have an FAA PPL based on my EASA-PPL.
2. I have done training in the USA before and my TSA account has my fingerprints preregisters.
3. I have been to, and rented from, a particular flight school in the USA several times before.

I want to go and do my FAA IR knowledge test (+ maybe a couple of hours training) at a school that is not SEVIS registered. They dont seem willing to get SEVIS registered for whatever reason and have told me that I don't need a VISA.

The main purpose of my trip is hour building for currency rather than training.

I find that nobody seems to know the law and I'm considering asking a lawyer to give me an opinion.

[Gomrath]

What FAA certificate do you have that required you to submit a TSA request in the past (excluding a FAA 61.75 based on certificate)?

The school is not SEVIS approved because they have elected to not go and get Part 141 status which costs many $$. As a result they cannot sponsor a foreign student for a M1 visa and therefore will tell you a story that you don't need a visa in order to get your business - which is clearly incorrect as you say you are doing flight training towards a FAA IR attached to your 'based on' certificate.

You will also need to submit a TSA application for the IR training and meet the training requirements detailed in FAR 61.
Where are you planning to do your IR Flight Test when the time comes?

At the end of the day, you are responsible for your visa status not the Flight School regardless of what they might say to you.

[Sierra Tango Romeo]

Hey Guys!

I'm new here and I've spent the last hour reading the thread. Very informativ, thanks! But concerning my case it didn't help much yet.

I've been to Florida in Jan/Feb this year with a M1-Visa for getting my PPL. I passed the written test and the oral exam but couldn't go for the check ride because it was to late that day and next day I had to leave the country :ugh:. I talked to the school's CEO, who told me he is about to state my training as finished (for visa purpose / immigration) since the check ride itself is not supposed to be part of flight training. For re-entry the United States I would just have to apply for VWP/ESTA like most European tourists.

Which I did six weeks later then... but bad luck again, the whole week nothing but IFR weather, I couldn't fly once (Sunshine State ;)) and left the U.S. again.

Now I'm done with Florida, I'm currently searching for a flight school in Arizona. My medical is valid until October 31 so I have to hurry up... which brings me to the questions: M1 again or ESTA again? Am I even able to get the same visa for the same course twice? What do you think?

Remember:


The M1 in my passport isn't valid anymore (as the immigration officer at the second entry has confirmed)
I already have all requirement for the exam, I just need a CFI to sign me up, I don't need to have any flight training (but of course I will, I haven't flew myself ever since)
I'll need less than 18 hours obviously (after reading the thread maybe a myth anyway).


Any help is appreciated, thanks :ok:

[dera]

You won't find a CFI who will just sign you off to a checkride without providing any training, its his ticket.

Training will be training towards a credit = M1 required.

[B2N2]

True, a CFI is required to give you at least 3 hours of training before he/she is authorized to sign you off.
Training is training I'm afraid and everybody here understands it's frustrating but you lack of progress or weather issues are not Immigration's concern.
Get another visa.

I'd actually recommend you finish your training using a different airplane then you used initially, this way you get a little more out of the experience.

[cyrilroy21]

Does anyone know if one can obtain an FAA Commercial Single Engine addon followed by a CFI rating on a B1 visa ?

[dera]

No you can not.

[skyship007]

:mad: Mine Gott, you are not even supposed to even fly a light aircraft in the US without at least a student (M1 for many courses) visa AND TSA approval. Mine a valid for 5 years, but I also have R stamped on the visa (A do what you like).
Mind you, I've flown all sorts in the US and no one even asked me for my passport, but do at least try and get the TSA approval, as you can run into real trouble trying to use a larger airport, an international one in particular.
The pain with an initial TSA approval is that manual finger prints are required. After that it's no big deal and just an online job. Any student visa requires an official interview at an embassy or consular office.

The FAA might check your immigration and TSA status when issuing a new rating or license, as will the Police if you bend a hire car.

You need a school or company sponsor to get a student (Or work) visa, or a TSA approval and it will take time if you have an interesting passport or family background.

NEVER PAY ANY SO CALLED VISA OR TSA GROUP AN UP FRONT FEE, as there are some real cool scam companies for work permits in particular. Only pay the correct online embassy or TSA web site fees (Plus the fingerprint lady in cash, which should be around 100 usd).

IF A COMPANY OFFERS YOU A JOB, LET THEM PAY FOR THE VISA, if they ask for anything up front, like a type rating deposit, the job does not exist even if the company does.

A LOT OF FAR EASTERN OFFICIALS LOST THEIR SHIRTS LAST NIGHT AND THEY WILL TURN TO A WHOLE BUNCH OF SCAM GAMES, including false airline jobs, to make money. Because those fraudsters are already active, their offers will be difficult to spot, so always ask for one months pay and a free return ticket if you already have a license. :=:mad:

[B2N2]

Does anyone know if one can obtain an FAA Commercial Single Engine addon followed by a CFI rating on a B1 visa ?
No, initial CPL requires a visa.
You would have known that if you'd read just a couple of pages....:hmm:

[pachs]

Hello guys,
I am new here and I know this can be silly questions but I have applied for a PPL course in Florida. they told me that I can finish the PPL with them for 2-3 weeks (because the ground school will be online) and I am able to get there with my B1/B2 visa, which mean, I will be taking the knowledge test and some flights training when I get there. So is it correct to go with my B1/B2 visa? my TSA clearance is approved. (as they stated on the website that the TSA clearance would be denied if I didn't have appropriate visa.) and I have my medical certificate ready.

I am worried cause I have been reading a lot of posts on the website and everyone is confusing between the waiver/M1/B1 and B2.
So I just would like to clarify because I am leaving in few days to finish up my PPL. I don't know If I actually needed to M1 which some schools offer that but I need months to complete the course with those schools, which I don't have time to do so. I will be doing it on my one month vacation along with some visitings. Thats why I decided to do this option with ground school online because I can't take months off work.

....and as one of my colleges (we are cabin crews), she had done her PPL in Florida as well. but she didn't tell the immigration the whole story when she passed through the immigration and she just told them she was going to visit friends. I don't think it was a wise idea to do so cause you could screw your passport pretty much if they found out later and when she needed to renew the visa or some sort of things?

I have checked with the flight school. and they said I can tell them that I am there for some flying lessons? and that's what I am going to tell them so. But it would be horrible if I got sent back, It is not a short flight, nearly 20hours from my base.

I would like to advice please!
thank you everyone in advance!!
(I really should read more comments and reviews about this more carefully before I applied.)

[ahwalk01]

No confusion, any pilot training undertaken requires an M1 visa. It's not difficult to get, the school must send you an I-20 which you take to the Embassy.

The immigration officer will need to stamp that, and see a SEVIS receipt once you land in the US. The school should know this.

[NEDude]

I am not an expert on the whole U.S. visa process, but I do have a friend who overseas the visa office at a U.S. consulate in Asia and I do have another acquaintance who was a CBP officer.
So here is what I do know - never, never NEVER(!!!!) mislead them about what your intentions are when coming to the United States. It is far better to take the appropriate steps and get the visa stuff done the right way the first time. The CBP officers will have access to all of the information you provided when you applied for your visa at the embassy/consulate, as well as notes and other information entered by the officer who processed your visa application.
So if you lie, or mislead them, they can find out. And if they do you will most likely be refused entry and barred from entering the United States for at least five years or longer. Most likely it will be longer - I know of people who made honest and small mistakes who ended up being barred for life. For example there was a woman who was from a visa waiver country (allowed 90 day visits to the U.S. without a visa) and was married to a United States citizen. She entered the United States with the mistaken impression that being from a VW country that she could enter and then apply for residency to be with her U.S. citizen husband. Long story short five years down the road her and her husband are still fighting to try and have her allowed entrance back into the United States after being barred for life.

Anyway I am not trying to scare you about the process. Rather trying to emphasise that the trouble to do it correctly in the first place pales in comparison to the trouble you will face trying to correct doing it the wrong way.

[custardpsc]

Yes, you can.

The school cannot legally issue an I-20 to give you an M1 unless you are enrolled in a course of 18hrs a week or more. That piece of advice came from a TSA inspection at a flying school run by a friend. In reality the abuse of this particular item is actually the opposite to what you are trying to do, ie people apply for an M1 and then work/jump ship.

Yes, you should be honest at the point of entry. Depending on where you fly into , your B1/B2 will allow you to go via one of the automated terminals that print an entry slip that you hand in to the customs guy on the way out.

In reality, having a visa is a good step and definiitely one better than entering under ESTA. A B1/B2 is a respectable visa for short term entry. I have used it myself for just what you describe, with honesty. If you are doing adhoc flight training, have done your TSA, have a visa and already have an airport ID if you are working as cabin crew it is extremely unlikely that you will have any issues. A lot of people will tell you otherwise, but have never done it either.

>No confusion, any pilot training undertaken requires an M1 visa

... is confused. No pilot training requires a visa. People require visas. Pilot training below 12500lbs MTOW requires TSA clearance for three well defined circumstances.

Pilot training for the initial issue of a private ( or cpl if first stand alone faa licence) , multi or instrument rating requires Cat 3 TSA.

You can quite happily add a float or rotary rating to a land certificate for example without TSA.

TSA is not specific about visas, but expects you to be legal/resepctable about your entry.

TSA have in the past asked me to prove that I was legally in the USA when I had to apply for a permission whilst inside the USA, I sent them a copy of my B1/B2 which worked just fine.

Hope that helps

[B2N2]

No it doesn't help.

We have a mega thread stickied for that reason.

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/418519-m1-visa-no-visa-sevis-approved-schools-usa.html

Advise from a friend, I was told this, I was told that doesn't hack it.

Only Part 141 SEVIS approved schools can provide flight training to Foreign nationals that do not hold a Green card.

You're mixing up two things:
(because the ground school will be online) and I am able to get there with my B1/B2 visa, which mean, I will be taking the knowledge test and some flights training when I get there

Online training is to pass the Written Test, it is NOT Ground school required for your Private Pilot Training course.
No matter how much or how little training you do...any training for the (original) issuance of a Pilot certificate ...requires a visa.
Because you're not a US Citizen.
Period.

they said I can tell them that I am there for some flying lessons?

The school knows that they are NOT telling you the truth and they are asking YOU to lie to an Immigration Officer as you are NOT going for some flying lessons you are going to train, pass a check ride and be issued a pilot certificate.

YOU NEED A VISA

[zondaracer]

If a foreigner already holds a FAA commercial certificate with a centerline restriction, and they want to remove it, do they need to get a Visa for flight training?

[B2N2]

I'm going to take a stab at this and say NO...as there is no increase in skill level considering the pilot in question already holds a CPL ME (centerline restricted)

[alpha-b]

Hi there.
I need an advise as to which type of visa i need to apply for my ATP CTP.The school told me that they don't provide I-20 for the ATP CTP so is the B1/B2 visa ok to apply with a letter proving i'm going for the course?
thanks for the input

[turbopropulsion]

As per, the entire thread:rolleyes:, you need to find a sevis approved school that can issue you an I-20 and either a M/F visa.

[cpt_cessnas]

sorry if this question has already answered .


i hold a FAA commercial multi engine
and i want to add my single engine rating.


can i join usa with tourist visa for this purpose?

[Piloto Maluco]

Hi there,


Is it normal that a flight school asks me $500 to issue the i20 ?


Thank you guys

[spaflyer]

Is it normal that a flight school asks me $500 to issue the i20 ?


Yes it is.. specially the initial ones if first time with them.

[Piloto Maluco]

thanks for your prompt reply spaflyer

[Piloto Maluco]

I've been in touch with a flight school that do not issue I20 form, and the director told me that there is no problem, I just need to scan him my passport and visitor visa.
I will risk to go to jail, isn't it?

[kural1984]

Do anyone has a knowledge that Can I fly with the A1 visa(which is diplomatic visa)or not?I contacted TSA,FAA and most of pilot schools no one has clear information about that

[FoxtrottSierra]

Indeed, that practice is illegal and you could get into serious trouble with US Customs, worst you end up in jail. Happened to an Egypcian guy at Florida Flyers in FL, just for staying too long or sth similar; and this school does issue I-20 ! Unthinkable to not get it before going to the US.

[N1 Limit]

Hi flyers
If any of u can clarify me i have a B1/B2 visa and was getting ready to come to the US for th ATP CTP isn't that possible?

[rossauk]

Hi flyers
If any of u can clarify me i have a B1/B2 visa and was getting ready to come to the US for th ATP CTP isn't that possible?

B1/B2 is a tourist / business visa, the school you use, may be able to transfer you to an M1 visa. I'd call them and ask to clarify, or call a few schools to make sure they're all saying the same thing. I did my IR addon on a visa waiver, you might be ok with the ATP.

[smellycat_heli]

I am trying to establish what I need to do to convert my CA$A Grade 2 FIR to FAA equivalent. I havent read deep enough into this post to dare poke my head up with questions yet.

However, when I rang the US Consulate in my city, they directed me to this webpage. It asks questions to try and assist you in determining which type of VISA you will require. Perhaps give it a crack and compare it to what you are being told by flying training provider. Which ever result is the encompassing - go with that. Getting barred from entry will def sink you before you've started. Best of luck.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en.html

[selfin]

If you undertook training in the United States for the addition of an instrument rating while admitted under B-class visa (includes aliens admitted under the visa waiver program) then you were in breach of immigration law. See the memorandum from the DOJ, and regulations at 8 CFR, referred to earlier in this thread.

[iaveight]

I am converting my Canadian ATPL to an FAA ATPL. My licence verification has been completed, I have an FAA class 1 medical. I have filled out the TSA form and the school has verified I will be a student.

I have to do the 5 day course , do I need a visa for the 5 day course?

Again I am Canadian and there is a reciprocal agreement with the ATPL

Thanks

[B2N2]

@ iaveight,

No you don't need a visa.
Technically you don't need a sign off for the FAA ATP check ride and formally you don't need any training.
Since you have a "foreign" ATPL already there is definitely no 'increase in skill level'.

That having said, the irony is that if you fail you do need a sign off from a CFI which requires training.

[selfin]

B2N2, iaveight,

No you don't need a visa.

An I20 certificate is still needed as is payment of the SEVIS fee. See here (https://ca.usembassy.gov/visas/canadian-students/).

Technically you don't need a sign off for the FAA ATP check ride [...]

No practical testing is required for the conversion of a TCCA ATPL to an FAA ATP Certificate under the Canada-US BASA and IPL (https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/international/bilateral_agreements/baa_basa _listing/).

[...] and formally you don't need any training.

S/he may need to complete the ATP Certification Training Program. See FAA AC 65-135A, Appendix I, table 3, footnote 5.

I have filled out the TSA form [...]

Why? Was this required for the ATP Certification Training Program, which is I assume what your 5-day course covers? FAA AC 65-135A, at 10(b)(4), states:

The pilot information that the FAA received on the form will be verified with TCCA. Further, the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) will conduct a security threat assessment.

[...]

(b) The security assessment conducted by the TSA does not satisfy the requirements of a foreign pilot training clearance. [...]

B2N2,

Since you have a "foreign" ATPL already there is definitely no 'increase in skill level'.

This is not an infallible yardstick for determining whether a security threat assessment by TSA is needed. The Alien Flight Student Program FAQ question #2 states for category 3 training events:

All other training events on aircraft with MTOW of 12,500 lbs. or less are exempt from AFSP regulations, including Commercial Pilot License (CPL), Airline Transport Pilot License (ATPL), and Certified Flight Instructor (CFI). These events are exempt only if the candidate holds an FAA stand-alone pilot certificate."

The security threat assessment in iaveight's case, using the BASA and IPL, will however be done in the background once he submits FAA Form 8060-71 (Verification of authenticity of foreign license, rating and medical certification).

[I]f you fail you do need a sign off from a CFI which requires training.

I'd be interested in seeing a justification for this claim.

[rudestuff]

I take it you have to do the ATP-CTP, but don't need an ATP checkride?

[MarkerInbound]

The FAA and Transport Canada have an agreement to accept each other's checkrides.

I'd be interested in seeing a justification for this claim.

From the ATP-CTP AC -

FAILURE OF KNOWLEDGE TEST.

Failure to Pass. Applicants who do not pass the ATP Airplane Knowledge Test must follow the provisions provided in § 61.49.

a.Authorized Instructor. For the purposes of the required retraining, “an authorized instructor” is an instructor that:

b.
(1) Meets the instructor qualifications described in paragraph 10(a) of this AC;

(2) Has completed the ground instructor training requirements in paragraph 10(b) of this AC; and

(3) Is employed by a training provider authorized to provide the ATP CTP.

So it's even worse than failing other writtens, you have to be signed off by an instructor in an ATP-CTP program.

[r10bbr]

can any fellow members recommend any schools in the usa that are easa ppl approved? the ones that i could find the reviews are 50/50 i.e EFT and American Aviation Academy

[selfin]

The list of ATOs under direct EASA oversight is here (https://www.easa.europa.eu/easa-and-you/aircrew-and-medical/approved-training-organisations-ato). Alternatively use an organisation operating as a satellite of an ATO in one of the Member States, e.g. Naples Air Center.