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Old 12th Nov 2017, 20:51   #21 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Talkdownman View Post
The AIP should be the FIRST resort...
Sarcasm😈😈😈
For minimum characters.
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 21:41   #22 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by dont overfil View Post
Sarcasm😈😈😈
For minimum characters.
Sarchasm:- The gulf between constructive criticism and downright rudeness.

Must get up there again one day Pete.
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 23:55   #23 (permalink)
 
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Not sarcasm at all. The AIP is the definitive reference document.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 08:53   #24 (permalink)
 
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There is nice diagram on p.99 of the Skyway Code of which the content, judging by some of the UKAB reports, may not be quite the common knowledge we think it is.

Also, I think on average we could do better with the radio. Itís another anti-collision device but one that many seem reticent to use when they are in doubt about a traffic pattern, runway(s) in use or where other aircraft are. It seems that some would rather get enough of a surprise that their exploits make it into print, rather than press the button and ask a question...

Itís quite OK to be unsure about something - that happens all the time, even in commercial aviation. What isnít as good is carrying on with what youíre not happy with when there are many opportunities to obtain more information. An option that few seem to consider is that if itís getting really messy, leave the circuit entirely and have another go from a better position.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 09:07   #25 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Talkdownman View Post
Not sarcasm at all. The AIP is the definitive reference document.


Not much use for most of the airfields I and many others visit. Hardly definitive. What's ATIS by the way?
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 10:12   #26 (permalink)
 
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ATIS are all very well if you fly from a real airfield that has them.
There will usually be an airfield plate with circuit procedures though.

Last edited by Crash one; 13th Nov 2017 at 13:21.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 12:24   #27 (permalink)
 
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Where possible I would say join as the operator reccomends or as directed by the AIP. However there will be situations where instructors or commercial pilots may need to operate in a more expidious way, so joining such as directly on to crosswind, For example a twenty minute trial lesson conducted by an to maximize the experience for the student to join on base might be reasonable.

The key thing in all of this is to maintain your own situational situational (SITAW)awareness by listening to the aircraft R/T calls and helping other pilots with their SITAW, even if it requires additional R/T call. This is based on there is A/G but no AFISO on duty.

The problem with instructors making non stadard joins, is that others you may considr themselves more exprienced PPL,s feeel they are above overhead joins. No the difficulty here is that if you join onto base or finals, the pilot is more likely to forget the prelanding checks. A case in point many years ago, at my local airfiled, one of the pilots, on returning from a business trips, he would regurlary call finals when I actual knew he was about 12 nm away, it was very disruptive to training and the instructors pointed this out to him in a kind way. Two weeks later I am on base leg, he calls long finals, I request his poistion, and he was 15 miles out, so I informed him since he was not even on a long final (4nm to 8nm), but still on a cross country, I had priority, and he would need to do a stadard overhead join as I was going to make a full stop land and 180 backtrack I though I had made my point.

A couple of months later same thing happens, I'm operating the A/G as an AFISO, pass the airfield information, I requests he calls long finals at between 4nm and 8nm, and finals when at less than 4 nm. I'm distraced for a few moments, and as I look out of the window, and I see the aircraft skidding down the runway on its belly. Apart from being a FI and an AFISO, was also fire crew, so we sped out to him, the triple bladed prop was bent, engine shock loaded, flaps ripped up and the fuselarge damaged.

The moral of this story is that if you do a non standard join you need to be sure yoour checks are completed, and the belt and braces approch is for the student or instructor on complex singles to make the call (not on R/T) as follows at around three hundred feet on finals.

'RED/BLUE/GREEN' (mixture, prop, 3 geens).

To add I have never agreed with the ATC/AFISO stating 'check three greens, unless the suspect the gear is still up.

Another accident I was aware of was a midair collision, one fatality and two survivors. A pilot in a high wing aircraft takes off from the duty runway and turns crosswind clinbing up to 1000ft, a high performace bi plane elects to join crosswind wind at 1000ft the same time, By the time they collide with each other, they are both about to turn downwind.

The AAIB cite the low sun as a factor, but also the somewhat late rejoin call from the bi plane. I would imagine that both aircraft in a time frame of 5 to ten minutes would have made 3 R/T calls each, yet neither were aware of the possible conflict. The AAIB pointed our that the late rejoin call by the bi plane was a factor. I do wonder whether a 'sterile cockpit' might have help avoid an accident.

So the sum up:

(a) Overhead joins are preferable for low hour pilots <500 hrs.
(b) Listen out to other aircraft, build a mental model of the other aircraft.
(c) Remember you can make additional calls such as base, late downwind, crosswind, if it is going to make your position clearer to other aircraft.
(d) Always have your landing lights on in the overhead and circuit, I know some clubs are against this on the basis of cost.
(e) Call up the airfield in a timely manner, I would say at least ten minutes, so you can build the big picture.
(f) Consider a 'sterile cockpit' in the overhead, rejoin and circuit, by that I mean only conversations that relate to the operation of the aircraft. This is what airline crew do below 10,000 ft.
(g) Give a wider berth for student pilots and thos with an Exam callsign.
(h) All the above relates to A/G airfiels where an AFISO may or not be there.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 12:53   #28 (permalink)
 
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Tower or no tower, my standard is 45 degrees to the down wind, every light on the airplane on, landing light, strobes, position, beacon.

I get a good view of the circuit and can see if there is anyone there.

At non tower anounce about 5 miles out and every time I drop my 500ft, seems to work ok.

I have noticed that a lot of airports do not seem to like overhead joins, I just avoid going it now on principle.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 13:46   #29 (permalink)

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I am always very wary of overhead joins. The procedure puts any potential number of aircraft at the same point in space, at a time when the pilots are having to concentrate on a number of things other than lookout.
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 16:56   #30 (permalink)
 
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"not cleared for grass". I don't understand this. Do you have to be 'cleared' to operate from grass in the UK?
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 17:10   #31 (permalink)
 
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No and there is no beach landing qualification or channel crossing which is are others ones which is made up by some.
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 17:49   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
No and there is no beach landing qualification or channel crossing which is are others ones which is made up by some.
I'm going to sit my beach and channel crossing test right after I get my mountain rating😉
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 18:17   #33 (permalink)
 
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Mountain rating is a real one. But there are no airports in the UK that have a requirement for you to have it.

have you not been to Barra yet or landed on of the other west coast beaches?
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 19:00   #34 (permalink)
 
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there is no beach landing qualification or channel crossing which is are others ones which is made up by some
Not wishing to be rude, but what's that in English, please?
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 19:07   #35 (permalink)
 
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I have noticed that a lot of airports do not seem to like overhead joins
Other fields - mine for one example - require it. Why not simply contact the a/d operator and ask? I am sure that works better than generalising - which is a kind of assumption - and we all know assumption is the mother of all f____ps.
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 19:34   #36 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
Mountain rating is a real one. But there are no airports in the UK that have a requirement for you to have it.
Try Luxters Farm near Henley; if it was licenced you would need the rating!
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 19:36   #37 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Jan Olieslagers View Post
Other fields - mine for one example - require it. Why not simply contact the a/d operator and ask? I am sure that works better than generalising - which is a kind of assumption - and we all know assumption is the mother of all f____ps.
Like I said at #12, ask when you phone for PPR.
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 20:00   #38 (permalink)
 
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Some clubs like to insist that you get a check out before you fly across the channel or land on a beach or land on grass. And like to make people think it's an official requirement by calling it a rating
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 20:00   #39 (permalink)
 
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I totally agree, @chevvron, but - as incomprehensible as I find it - there seem to be those who utterly reject the PPR concept.
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 20:24   #40 (permalink)
 
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While I disagree with implying it is a requirement/rating it is always adviseable to seek instruction in something which is new to you, especially if a lower houred pilot.
A PPL course is a very basic introduction to the world of flying and can often be poorly taught and with the now very expensive cost of self hiring the average PPL I've come across in the UK is barely current and bumbles along at an ok to minimum acceptable standard. There of course are always exceptions but most PPL holders flying for fun were not exactly flying daily or even weekly. So low hours chap 30-50 hours after test has never been on grass before well certainly it is do-able but get some help from an FI or go find someone in the club with experience and go for a day out.(TBH with grass a chat over coffee would be enough considering they are current enough to be safe although with students I wouldn't send solo if we had not done dual grass runway work.). Same with cross channel stuff. There are a lot of considerations that are just common sense to most of us but your average uncurrent low hours guy could benefit hugely from a checkout and being shown the correct procedures for crossing FIR's and flight over water.
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