Best combo for starting a flying club
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Best combo for starting a flying club
If you were going to start a flying club and Wanted an aircraft for training/hour building and an aircraft for touring what combo would you go for? Cessna 152 and PA28 or Cessna 150 and Cessna 172. Any thoughts?
Also, would you go for a grass strip or airfield with concrete and lighting as an operating base?
Also, would you go for a grass strip or airfield with concrete and lighting as an operating base?
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Much against my personal choice, for the aircraft you are probably slightly better off going Cessna, though Pa 28 is also not a bad choice. I would love to be putting forwards an aircraft that handles decently but most of these will end up costing.
For location you are probably over simplifiying it, there are so many factors to take into account. Given other factors being equal then you are obviously better off with a hard surface as a grass runway will mean you lose days when it is too soft, but then you need to take into account how much you pay in lease costs/hangarage/landing fees etc. where your engineering will be done, how much competition is in the area and where your customers will come from, when you have taken all this into account you may find a hard runway is a bigger or smaller part of the descision.
For location you are probably over simplifiying it, there are so many factors to take into account. Given other factors being equal then you are obviously better off with a hard surface as a grass runway will mean you lose days when it is too soft, but then you need to take into account how much you pay in lease costs/hangarage/landing fees etc. where your engineering will be done, how much competition is in the area and where your customers will come from, when you have taken all this into account you may find a hard runway is a bigger or smaller part of the descision.
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foxmouth, wow, thank you for all the information which was very informative; full of factors and variables to consider. I agree, I think it comes down to PA28 vs Cessna. I am particularly interested in farm strip and short field training with one aircraft and hiring out the other aircraft for touring and rental.
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foxmouth, wow, thank you for all the information which was very informative; full of factors and variables to consider. I agree, I think it comes down to PA28 vs Cessna. I am particularly interested in farm strip and short field training with one aircraft and hiring out the other aircraft for touring and rental.
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I am particularly interested in farm strip and short field training with one aircraft
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Thanks, I like the Cessna 172 and have noted that CC Pocock used it for Bush flight training in South Africa. But, I think you hit the nail on the head when you raised the issue of weight. Hence I'm thinking PA28 as one of the combo.
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I'm thinking of dual basing at Derby and Nottingham so I can have the grass and concrete both available. Found a nice Cessna 150 for under 13k, but finding a PA28 is harder, although found a Warrior for under 60k. Not looking at PPL training. Really farm strip, hour building and rental.
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To make economic sense, each aircraft needs to do at least 350 - 400 hours per year, in fact you shouldn't look at acquiring a second aircraft until you're looking at 350 hours on the first. The only way of getting up to those sorts of hours is to operate ab initio training with Trail Lesson sales. That means starting as an ATO, with all the paperwork etc and probably paid staff.
It also means sensibly, a 4-seater, to lift enough load for the +16 stone that many folk seem to be these days (and the blokes are even more!!). Finding either a PA28 or a C172 with an engine in calendar and clock hours that's presentable enough is going to be somewhere well in excess of £40k at the moment.
Sooo, if you're thinking C150 or 152, then for heavens sake look at Ikarus C42. MUCH cheaper to operate with similar mission profile. No hassle with having to set up an ATO for ab initio, though you might struggle to find one that's legal to rent out and an instructor who isn't already working elsewhere.
TOO
It also means sensibly, a 4-seater, to lift enough load for the +16 stone that many folk seem to be these days (and the blokes are even more!!). Finding either a PA28 or a C172 with an engine in calendar and clock hours that's presentable enough is going to be somewhere well in excess of £40k at the moment.
Sooo, if you're thinking C150 or 152, then for heavens sake look at Ikarus C42. MUCH cheaper to operate with similar mission profile. No hassle with having to set up an ATO for ab initio, though you might struggle to find one that's legal to rent out and an instructor who isn't already working elsewhere.
TOO
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Theoddone, thank you. Very informative. You've got me thinking now. Maybe one Cessna 150 from Derby with trial lessons, hour building, and farm strip could do 350 hours per year. Ik C42 interesting, but I really want to rent out, although it could do farm strip flying!
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The question posed was "If you were going to start..." Is this a hypothetical exercise or are you intending to start a club? If you are actually intending to start a club, with only one or two aircraft, what is your back up plan when your primary training aircraft becomes unavailable and you have bookings?
I don't know what length or surface your farm strip has, but I'd suggest a C150/152 isn't the best choice, nor anything with small wheels.
I wouldn't think the likes of the DA20 would be much chop as a strip machine either.
I'd be going for a PA28 or C172 especially if this will be the initial and likely only aircraft to start with.
The PA28 and C172 give you versatility and performance. They can fill the training, 3 to 4 seat, and touring roles. While being slightly more expensive to run that a C150/152 the better utilisation you're likely get will likely mean your operating costs will not be much different than if you had a C150/152.
Some people will advocate the C172 as being a better strip machine than a PA28. While the high wing can offer advantages with respect to wing clearance around fences etc, the PA28 is still a good strip machine when flown accurately.
PA28's in my opinon are a cheaper airframe to maintain.
If you're concerned about back up for one aircraft, look around to see who might have a similar type that you can lease at short notice.
Then once you have the work to justify two aircraft get another one the same as the first. Common types/models have several advantages. e.g. it doesn't matter which aircraft you use for any particular job, one can be the back up for the other, as an operator you only need to become familiar with the quirks of one type, students can fly either one meaning you can be doing dual in one and the other is being used for solo training.
I wouldn't think the likes of the DA20 would be much chop as a strip machine either.
I'd be going for a PA28 or C172 especially if this will be the initial and likely only aircraft to start with.
The PA28 and C172 give you versatility and performance. They can fill the training, 3 to 4 seat, and touring roles. While being slightly more expensive to run that a C150/152 the better utilisation you're likely get will likely mean your operating costs will not be much different than if you had a C150/152.
Some people will advocate the C172 as being a better strip machine than a PA28. While the high wing can offer advantages with respect to wing clearance around fences etc, the PA28 is still a good strip machine when flown accurately.
PA28's in my opinon are a cheaper airframe to maintain.
If you're concerned about back up for one aircraft, look around to see who might have a similar type that you can lease at short notice.
Then once you have the work to justify two aircraft get another one the same as the first. Common types/models have several advantages. e.g. it doesn't matter which aircraft you use for any particular job, one can be the back up for the other, as an operator you only need to become familiar with the quirks of one type, students can fly either one meaning you can be doing dual in one and the other is being used for solo training.
Last edited by 27/09; 31st Aug 2016 at 07:51.
B2N2: If you're not looking to flight instruct the 172/Pa28 are fuel hogs compared to the DA20 series..just sayin'