Best combo for starting a flying club
@FlyingMac: may we extend that to "go for something Rotax-powered, at least for your basic trainer"
@Parson: a good remark, but a club needs to make sure to invest for the best interest of its members. That means low hourly rates which in turn means flying a lot of hours. It will depend on membership if aerobatic or taildragger planes will draw enough interest. In my observation (on the other side of the small pond) clubs only have such an exotism when they have at least five more conventional planes - microlights included.
@Parson: a good remark, but a club needs to make sure to invest for the best interest of its members. That means low hourly rates which in turn means flying a lot of hours. It will depend on membership if aerobatic or taildragger planes will draw enough interest. In my observation (on the other side of the small pond) clubs only have such an exotism when they have at least five more conventional planes - microlights included.
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Mr Average has a good point. Another club would not be allowed to set up in competition at my local field. Even if you were permitted to do so it probably would not be worth the aggro.
You would ideally have a bar and cafe or restaurant at the airfield. If it was yours you may actually make some money.
C172 or PA28 are the sensible choice. They have 4 seats and you can train in them. The C172, especially the 'S' models are good short field machines but the customers prefer Pipers. One of the schools nearby have tried every type you could think of over the last 30 years. Trago Mills, Grob 115, DA20 ARV, and a few others. Whilst the C152's have gone the fleet is still mostly Piper Warriors.
As TOO has already pointed out the aircraft have to do a substantial number of hours due to the high fixed costs. I reckon my Archer, 15 years ago cost £10000 per year before it flew.
Finally, one of our three runways is grass and on average it is usable 9-10 months of the year and is very labour intensive.
You would ideally have a bar and cafe or restaurant at the airfield. If it was yours you may actually make some money.
C172 or PA28 are the sensible choice. They have 4 seats and you can train in them. The C172, especially the 'S' models are good short field machines but the customers prefer Pipers. One of the schools nearby have tried every type you could think of over the last 30 years. Trago Mills, Grob 115, DA20 ARV, and a few others. Whilst the C152's have gone the fleet is still mostly Piper Warriors.
As TOO has already pointed out the aircraft have to do a substantial number of hours due to the high fixed costs. I reckon my Archer, 15 years ago cost £10000 per year before it flew.
Finally, one of our three runways is grass and on average it is usable 9-10 months of the year and is very labour intensive.
Jan O - possibly, but if I was starting/running a flying club I would be seriously looking at keep members flying once they had they got their PPL. Many PPLs tire of the £100 (more like £200 these days..) bacon sandwich and anything that encourages them to fly more/progress has to be worth looking at.
A club doesn't have to buy such aircraft but could lease on an ad-hoc basis. Club where I learnt to fly had access to a privately owned Chipmunk which appealed to members and instructors alike!
A club doesn't have to buy such aircraft but could lease on an ad-hoc basis. Club where I learnt to fly had access to a privately owned Chipmunk which appealed to members and instructors alike!
A club doesn't have to buy such aircraft but could lease on an ad-hoc basis.
methinks this might be a fishing expedition.
IF your thinking of setting up a club/school on a strip, what are the restrictions in terms of movements and noise at said strip?
Where will you get your fuel? If you plan to "sell" fuel to your club members then you need to be licensed to store and sell it, talking about storing.................
The club will, no doubt, need staff, even if they're volunteers, which means insurance and stuff. What your doing is setting up a business and will need all the same liability insurances any other business needs.
If your club is to sell alcohol, well, there is yet another license
need I go on?
one last thought, in the area you mention, there are quite a few well established schools and clubs already, can the market take another?
IF your thinking of setting up a club/school on a strip, what are the restrictions in terms of movements and noise at said strip?
Where will you get your fuel? If you plan to "sell" fuel to your club members then you need to be licensed to store and sell it, talking about storing.................
The club will, no doubt, need staff, even if they're volunteers, which means insurance and stuff. What your doing is setting up a business and will need all the same liability insurances any other business needs.
If your club is to sell alcohol, well, there is yet another license
need I go on?
one last thought, in the area you mention, there are quite a few well established schools and clubs already, can the market take another?
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Sooo, if you're thinking C150 or 152, then for heavens sake look at Ikarus C42. MUCH cheaper to operate with similar mission profile. No hassle with having to set up an ATO for ab initio, though you might struggle to find one that's legal to rent out and an instructor who isn't already working elsewhere.
In practical terms, what's the difference between a club and group ownership with several aircraft?
I have a single seater which costs about £10-18 per hour in fuel depending on how fast I go. I wanted it for currency, as I felt I was getting rusty enough that I couldn't afford to fly enough to trust myself with other people's lives. Also, I couldn't afford to fly far enough to go anywhere interesting.
My ideal would be to co-own several aircraft - something small and cheap, something aerobatic, and something good for touring with a couple of people. As co-ownership would open up the prospect of permit types, costs would be lower and choice of aircraft could be considerably more varied.
I have a single seater which costs about £10-18 per hour in fuel depending on how fast I go. I wanted it for currency, as I felt I was getting rusty enough that I couldn't afford to fly enough to trust myself with other people's lives. Also, I couldn't afford to fly far enough to go anywhere interesting.
My ideal would be to co-own several aircraft - something small and cheap, something aerobatic, and something good for touring with a couple of people. As co-ownership would open up the prospect of permit types, costs would be lower and choice of aircraft could be considerably more varied.
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Avoid 150/152s like tbe plague. They have too little performance from grass to be worthwhile. Stay safe and use a 172. Start with at least three to cover unserviceablities and once you have a thriving club start looking at something more interesting. More interesting equals tailwheel (Cub, Moth etc.), aerobatic and/or vintage. If people want a fast tourers, let them form syndicates to buy them.
But what ever you do, avoid runway hogs and things with a poor load carrying.
PM
But what ever you do, avoid runway hogs and things with a poor load carrying.
PM
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"Avoid 150/152s like tbe plague. They have too little performance from grass to be worthwhile."
That's odd, I fly my 150 off grass all the time, all year round. Careful handling needed when its muddy and I have been known to take off with low fuel loadings in the winter and make a short hop to the nearest hard runway with fuel. MTOW always needs care with 150/152's to stay within limits.
I do find it an odd reflection of this hobby of ours, though, that when thinking about a shiny new venture considerations are given to having the core asset being something which hasn't been manufactured for 40 years !
A bit like driving schools using Morris Minors and teaching double declutching...
That's odd, I fly my 150 off grass all the time, all year round. Careful handling needed when its muddy and I have been known to take off with low fuel loadings in the winter and make a short hop to the nearest hard runway with fuel. MTOW always needs care with 150/152's to stay within limits.
I do find it an odd reflection of this hobby of ours, though, that when thinking about a shiny new venture considerations are given to having the core asset being something which hasn't been manufactured for 40 years !
A bit like driving schools using Morris Minors and teaching double declutching...
Last edited by 150 Driver; 3rd Sep 2016 at 06:54. Reason: spelling...
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I do find it an odd reflection of this hobby of ours, though, that when thinking about a shiny new venture considerations are given to having the core asset being something which hasn't been manufactured for 40 years !
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Avoid 150/152s like tbe plague. They have too little performance from grass to be worthwhile.
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Shows what a good trainer Mr Cessna turned out all those years back. Also shows how durable they turned out to be.
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Quote:
Shows what a good trainer Mr Cessna turned out all those years back. Also shows how durable they turned out to be.
The first sentence is a load of rot, the C150/152 is not the best trainer by any means, durable, with readily available spares and cheap to operate is what makes them a good school machine!
Shows what a good trainer Mr Cessna turned out all those years back. Also shows how durable they turned out to be.
The first sentence is a load of rot, the C150/152 is not the best trainer by any means, durable, with readily available spares and cheap to operate is what makes them a good school machine!
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I've not said a 150/152 can not operate from grass. It is just that even operating from a paved runway you too often have a TOW restriction. I've also done enough time in an asthmatic 152 to know how pathetic their performance is and quite why people describe them as good trainers is beyond me. I've flown PA 18, 28, 32 & 38s, C150/152/172 (various)/206 & 207, Robin DR400 and quite a hours in other more interesting types. The most unpleasant to fly were the C150/152 and PA38. The most useful, from a PPL perspective was the DR400. But it is not a good club aircraft. It needs a hangar and people who will respect it.
Returning to the 172, I've done enough ab-initio instruction in one to know that that they are a good teaching platform. A 172 can lift more from less. Quite how much more it costs to operate than a 150/152 I'm not sure but it has to be worth it. Hatton asked about the best aircraft to start a group with. Any aircraft where you have too many limits is best avoided. One with more performance means more utility which means a better club operation. And as someone said above, it's a shame we have to look at relics for current operations. This is true cost of lawyers and product liability insurance.
PM
Returning to the 172, I've done enough ab-initio instruction in one to know that that they are a good teaching platform. A 172 can lift more from less. Quite how much more it costs to operate than a 150/152 I'm not sure but it has to be worth it. Hatton asked about the best aircraft to start a group with. Any aircraft where you have too many limits is best avoided. One with more performance means more utility which means a better club operation. And as someone said above, it's a shame we have to look at relics for current operations. This is true cost of lawyers and product liability insurance.
PM