Low flying Vs aeromodellers
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Molemot
These regulations mean little until something happens
A question of its all fine till its not fine
Should a model collide with a transponding aircraft with an altitude readout it would be fairly easy for the AAIB to determine the altitude of the model
if the model was determined to be at 500 feet instead of below 400 feet the regulation would have been breached whether you gauged that by eyesight or not
Remember too GPS is pretty accurate
Pace
These regulations mean little until something happens
A question of its all fine till its not fine
Should a model collide with a transponding aircraft with an altitude readout it would be fairly easy for the AAIB to determine the altitude of the model
if the model was determined to be at 500 feet instead of below 400 feet the regulation would have been breached whether you gauged that by eyesight or not
Remember too GPS is pretty accurate
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 31st Jan 2016 at 12:51.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: SW Scotland
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if you did carry out a perfectly legal PFL in most of the UK down to 1' you would likely be guilty of "recklessly or negligently acting in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft or any person in an aircraft".
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near the watter...
Age: 77
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pace...
Of course, in the circumstances you posit, highly unlikely though they may be, then a successful prosecution could well follow.
But that isn't my point..... What I was trying to show was that it is impossible for the model's pilot to know his altitude...so the "proper" pilot who does, by looking at their altimeter, cannot depend on models always being below 400 feet...no matter what the rules may say. Much better then to be a fair bit higher and avoid the possibility of collision, than to be in the right with a faceful of mad whirling model engine and propeller.
Considering the relative numbers of birds to models, and the rarity of birdstrike, I don't think the risk can be all that much in any case.
Of course, in the circumstances you posit, highly unlikely though they may be, then a successful prosecution could well follow.
But that isn't my point..... What I was trying to show was that it is impossible for the model's pilot to know his altitude...so the "proper" pilot who does, by looking at their altimeter, cannot depend on models always being below 400 feet...no matter what the rules may say. Much better then to be a fair bit higher and avoid the possibility of collision, than to be in the right with a faceful of mad whirling model engine and propeller.
Considering the relative numbers of birds to models, and the rarity of birdstrike, I don't think the risk can be all that much in any case.
Or much better for the model to be a fair bit lower? The actual height of the piloted aircraft is not known accurately. It depends on the altimeter setting used - and that is given by ATC.
PS I often use an unmanned airfield also used by model flyers, and have no problems. Overhead join to give them time to land. Don't do too many T&Gs so they get a chance to fly. Chat to them on the ground.
PS I often use an unmanned airfield also used by model flyers, and have no problems. Overhead join to give them time to land. Don't do too many T&Gs so they get a chance to fly. Chat to them on the ground.
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: The Wild Blue Yonder
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Under English law, the land owner also owns the airspace above the land unless specifically excluded in the lease or transfer".
Only in relation to structural matters; meaning no one can build a structure above your property. Flying isn't covered by this "owenership" and nor are things like power lines.
Only in relation to structural matters; meaning no one can build a structure above your property. Flying isn't covered by this "owenership" and nor are things like power lines.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Molemot
All I can say and this involves many aviation regulations too is all is fine until its not fine.
A serious incident especially involving loss of life will mean that the authorities won't care a jot on how you determine that height.
f they can prove that you broke a regulation that is what they will use. You may use the fact that you could not determine the actual height as mitigating circumstances but it would be seen in the same way as me driving a car with a broken speedometer which was not accurate and exceeding a 30mph speed limit.
I would still be guilty of breaking the limit the judge may take into account that I believed the speedo reading was accurate. If my exceeding the limit involved a crash and loss of life of a pedestrian that may influence my sentence
pace
All I can say and this involves many aviation regulations too is all is fine until its not fine.
A serious incident especially involving loss of life will mean that the authorities won't care a jot on how you determine that height.
f they can prove that you broke a regulation that is what they will use. You may use the fact that you could not determine the actual height as mitigating circumstances but it would be seen in the same way as me driving a car with a broken speedometer which was not accurate and exceeding a 30mph speed limit.
I would still be guilty of breaking the limit the judge may take into account that I believed the speedo reading was accurate. If my exceeding the limit involved a crash and loss of life of a pedestrian that may influence my sentence
pace
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Only in relation to structural matters; meaning no one can build a structure above your property. Flying isn't covered by this "owenership" and nor are things like power lines.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: England & Scotland
Age: 63
Posts: 1,413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The towers are structures and in UK they need permission to site them on your land. They pay you a "wayleave" - I know this because they pay me, and recently they had to seek my permission to re-route the line (refused) so they replaced the old structures in situ.
[Thread drift....]
[Thread drift....]
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whilst "many" models carry telemetry it certainly isn't mandatory.
Another case for getting the model flyer on board. Educate him and he may feel disposed to fit telemetry to his model.
The extract from SERA 5005 in the linked report states that
So, given the above, does a PFL down to a height below 500ft qualify as necessary taking off or landing event? I think we can rule out any kind of permission having been granted from the competent authority.
Another case for getting the model flyer on board. Educate him and he may feel disposed to fit telemetry to his model.
The extract from SERA 5005 in the linked report states that
f) Except when necessary for take-off or landing, or except by permission from the competent authority, a VFR flight shall not be flown:
(1) over the congested areas of cities, towns or settlements or over an open-air assembly of persons at a height less than 300 m (1000 ft) above the
highest obstacle within a radius of 600 m from the aircraft;
(2) elsewhere than as specified in (1), at a height less than 150 m (500ft)
above the ground or water, or 150 m (500ft) above the highest obstacle
within a radius of 150 m (500ft) from the aircraft.’
(1) over the congested areas of cities, towns or settlements or over an open-air assembly of persons at a height less than 300 m (1000 ft) above the
highest obstacle within a radius of 600 m from the aircraft;
(2) elsewhere than as specified in (1), at a height less than 150 m (500ft)
above the ground or water, or 150 m (500ft) above the highest obstacle
within a radius of 150 m (500ft) from the aircraft.’
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Mare Imbrium
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SRD
At present that bit of SERA has an exemption in the UK - we are still permitted to fly low, as long as we are 500' from "any person, vessel, vehicle or structure". And that's a 500' "bubble" around the object so you can be very low as long as you are 500' horizontally away from the object.
500' doesnt look very much sideways I've found.
As I said earlier, any PPL student should expect their instructor to make them do PFLs much lower than 500'. Its the instructor's job to call it off early if the 500' rule looks like its about to be broken - if not and all else is well I regularly go down to 50' or so.
Qualified PPLs should be in the habit of practicing PFLs on their own too.
At present that bit of SERA has an exemption in the UK - we are still permitted to fly low, as long as we are 500' from "any person, vessel, vehicle or structure". And that's a 500' "bubble" around the object so you can be very low as long as you are 500' horizontally away from the object.
500' doesnt look very much sideways I've found.
As I said earlier, any PPL student should expect their instructor to make them do PFLs much lower than 500'. Its the instructor's job to call it off early if the 500' rule looks like its about to be broken - if not and all else is well I regularly go down to 50' or so.
Qualified PPLs should be in the habit of practicing PFLs on their own too.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near the watter...
Age: 77
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pace...
Don't give a tuppeny fart about the rights or wrongs or enquiries or legalities... just pointing out that an altitude of 400 feet is impossible for the average model pilot to assess. Who cares about "the subsequent court of enquiry"...the point is that you cannot rely on models staying below 400 feet, so you could easily end up "dead right". Far better to avoid them by staying well above this yourself, surely?
Flying is full of things you can't measure or assess by eye with any accuracy. RAF aeroplanes fly low level at 250 feet, and we were told this was about twice the height of a pylon and you could see the legs on cows but not on sheep... And just how do you assess the VMC 1500 metres horizontally clear of cloud thing? Better to stay well clear....
Don't give a tuppeny fart about the rights or wrongs or enquiries or legalities... just pointing out that an altitude of 400 feet is impossible for the average model pilot to assess. Who cares about "the subsequent court of enquiry"...the point is that you cannot rely on models staying below 400 feet, so you could easily end up "dead right". Far better to avoid them by staying well above this yourself, surely?
Flying is full of things you can't measure or assess by eye with any accuracy. RAF aeroplanes fly low level at 250 feet, and we were told this was about twice the height of a pylon and you could see the legs on cows but not on sheep... And just how do you assess the VMC 1500 metres horizontally clear of cloud thing? Better to stay well clear....
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Up North
Age: 57
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SRD
Yes, EASA SERA has a blanket not below 150m/500' with a few specified exceptions.
However, as Heston says, the UK CAA have issued an exemption to this (and other SERA low flying stuff), you can find it in in ORS4 No.1124. This keeps us where we were with the ANO rule 5, that is, as low as you think safe, but 500' slant from any person, vehicle, vessel or structure.
Yes, EASA SERA has a blanket not below 150m/500' with a few specified exceptions.
However, as Heston says, the UK CAA have issued an exemption to this (and other SERA low flying stuff), you can find it in in ORS4 No.1124. This keeps us where we were with the ANO rule 5, that is, as low as you think safe, but 500' slant from any person, vehicle, vessel or structure.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 145
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All very good points, well made.
What I was really getting at when I mentioned going around at 500' is that in this particular incident, caution needs to be exercised by the OP when corresponding with the aero modellers. If the PFL didn't breach any rules then fine, but if was flown lower and the aero modellers report the incident things might get unpleasant.
It is impossible for the CAA to determine how high the model aircraft were flying, however easy for them to view a radar replay or for someone on the ground to have taken a photo that could be used to determine the height of the full size aircraft.
What I was really getting at when I mentioned going around at 500' is that in this particular incident, caution needs to be exercised by the OP when corresponding with the aero modellers. If the PFL didn't breach any rules then fine, but if was flown lower and the aero modellers report the incident things might get unpleasant.
It is impossible for the CAA to determine how high the model aircraft were flying, however easy for them to view a radar replay or for someone on the ground to have taken a photo that could be used to determine the height of the full size aircraft.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: london
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm interested. You chaps seem to be arguing about who's at 400 feet, who's at 500 feet, who's in the right, who's in the wrong. And there's suggestion that the CAA would get all excited if a PFL got to 400 feet..
So what instrument are you using to gauge this height? Because I've not seen a rad alt in a spamcan and an altimeter is useless because you don't know the datum. And if you are conducting PFLs with any reference to the altimeter at all you're an idiot! Because you should be looking out of the window judging the circuit. And if you are looking out of the window judging the circuit you will probably see the model. Or the power line. Or whatever other obstruction or hazard is waiting to kill you.
If an aero modeller reports you to the CAA for low flying during a PFL you are a profesional or flying like one and the last thing on your mind at 500 feet over an unknown datum is looking at an altimeter! And you say that to them, and they say "absolutely right sir" and that's the end of that. Maybe don't do PFLs where you know there are aero modellers.
So what instrument are you using to gauge this height? Because I've not seen a rad alt in a spamcan and an altimeter is useless because you don't know the datum. And if you are conducting PFLs with any reference to the altimeter at all you're an idiot! Because you should be looking out of the window judging the circuit. And if you are looking out of the window judging the circuit you will probably see the model. Or the power line. Or whatever other obstruction or hazard is waiting to kill you.
If an aero modeller reports you to the CAA for low flying during a PFL you are a profesional or flying like one and the last thing on your mind at 500 feet over an unknown datum is looking at an altimeter! And you say that to them, and they say "absolutely right sir" and that's the end of that. Maybe don't do PFLs where you know there are aero modellers.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: london
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can tell you when you run into trouble low flying. If your reg is easily read from the ground then you're a bit low. And that works for a 500ft hemisphere rather than simply AGL. If you can see distinct twigs and branches on trees, that's about 500 feet.
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: London
Posts: 442
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am just a little curious... When your aeromodel is at 400ft - isn't it a spec in the distance? Especially if already 500ft laterally in addition to the height? When i flew aeromodels, I don't think we often went above about 150-200ft just because there isn't much point of flying something you can't see. We used to share an airfield and only had issues when they dropped their towed banners on top of us.
Also - I was under the impression that one could fly down to any height they wanted for a PFL, providing that you abide by the 500ft rule.
I personally would contact the flyers and just make sure that this won't ever happen again, be it contacting them prior to doing a PFL, or just making one another aware of the areas that one another use. Be friendly, and upbeat, apologising the near miss that your instructor and student did not see the model, and to ensure that in future no accidents happen, just to talk to one another prior to flight.
Also - I was under the impression that one could fly down to any height they wanted for a PFL, providing that you abide by the 500ft rule.
I personally would contact the flyers and just make sure that this won't ever happen again, be it contacting them prior to doing a PFL, or just making one another aware of the areas that one another use. Be friendly, and upbeat, apologising the near miss that your instructor and student did not see the model, and to ensure that in future no accidents happen, just to talk to one another prior to flight.
Well, there are some quite big models out there. I was flying down the Welsh coast at about 500 feet once (with due caution re. paragliders, being able to reach fields/beach etc...) when I saw a radio controlled aircraft at a disused field climbing vertically to well above my level.
You can actually control aircraft and drones quite well even when they're a dot in the sky - by using gentle combinations of pitch/turn you can work out whether your aircraft is facing towards or away from you, and which way up it is. It's more an emergency procedure than a way I enjoy flying them, though.
You can actually control aircraft and drones quite well even when they're a dot in the sky - by using gentle combinations of pitch/turn you can work out whether your aircraft is facing towards or away from you, and which way up it is. It's more an emergency procedure than a way I enjoy flying them, though.
The issue is very simple. Model aircraft have no right of way over manned aircraft. They have to keep well clear and should immediately manoever away and land if they observe an aircraft approaching the area they are flying.
If there is a conflict between a model and an aircraft it is the model pilots fault.
If there is a conflict between a model and an aircraft it is the model pilots fault.