BGA airspace open letter
I still don't see the problem with the BGA's letter and find its tone and advice perfectly reasonable. The stumbling block on this thread seems to be some pilots not getting the 'soaring pilots must concentrate on a number of tasks besides staying airborne'.
On Wednesday I flew a powered aircraft and a sailplane, back-to-back.
I did not have to 'concentrate on staying airborne' in the powered aircraft at all. I find the engine to be very helpful in this respect.
The radio is a powerful tool, which is why the BGA is advocating its use, but the point I think the letter is also trying to make is "don't drop the plane to fly the mike!"
On Wednesday I flew a powered aircraft and a sailplane, back-to-back.
I did not have to 'concentrate on staying airborne' in the powered aircraft at all. I find the engine to be very helpful in this respect.
The radio is a powerful tool, which is why the BGA is advocating its use, but the point I think the letter is also trying to make is "don't drop the plane to fly the mike!"
Last edited by DaveUnwin; 14th Aug 2015 at 10:02. Reason: spelling
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i think we are getting tied up in semantics here. If you are flying a glider and are able to communicate then do so. No one is asking anyone to fly into the ground for the sake of a radio call. Some (in fact a lot) of glider pilots aren't confident in using the radio; if we can overcome this then surely it's a win win for everyone.
"If you are flying a glider and are able to communicate then do so"
Errr, isn't that what the BGA's letter says? Some of the posters on this thread indicated that they had a beef with the BGAs letter, whereas I think its perfectly reasonable.
You said that "I don't really get the 'soaring pilots must concentrate on a number of tasks besides staying airborne' and I was just trying to point out that simply staying airborne in a powered aircraft doesn't require any concentration at all - whereas in a sailplane it does,
The radio is a powerful tool, and I agree with the BGA in advocating its use, but "don't drop the plane to fly the mike!"
Errr, isn't that what the BGA's letter says? Some of the posters on this thread indicated that they had a beef with the BGAs letter, whereas I think its perfectly reasonable.
You said that "I don't really get the 'soaring pilots must concentrate on a number of tasks besides staying airborne' and I was just trying to point out that simply staying airborne in a powered aircraft doesn't require any concentration at all - whereas in a sailplane it does,
The radio is a powerful tool, and I agree with the BGA in advocating its use, but "don't drop the plane to fly the mike!"
Last edited by DaveUnwin; 14th Aug 2015 at 15:25. Reason: Missed a bit!
I agree with DaveUnwin. The content and tone of the letter seemed perfectly reasonable to me.(and I'm not a glider pilot)
Having glider pilots talk to ATC/AG on the radio is a relatively new thing, and neither side is familiar with the other yet. Both sides may need educating as to the needs of the other, and any effort to promote the education process is to be applauded.
MJ
Having glider pilots talk to ATC/AG on the radio is a relatively new thing, and neither side is familiar with the other yet. Both sides may need educating as to the needs of the other, and any effort to promote the education process is to be applauded.
MJ
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@Dave:
I think the letter is a great step forward and fully agree with your 'Don't fly the mic' comment which of course applies to any type of aircraft. I would also agree with MJ that it's more of a cultural problem than an ability one. I just thought that the phrase in question was a little strong in implying that there isn't much spare capacity for transmitting because of the peculiarities of glider flying. I'm a very average Joe glider pilot having scaled the dizzy ranks to a silver but I've never had a problem using the radio at any time so I think it's over egging it a bit to imply (and I may be reading it wrong) that gliders are a special case. Surely the bizzare maelstrom of machinery known as a helicopter shouldn't be transmitting at all if we're talking about spare capacity.
I think the letter is a great step forward and fully agree with your 'Don't fly the mic' comment which of course applies to any type of aircraft. I would also agree with MJ that it's more of a cultural problem than an ability one. I just thought that the phrase in question was a little strong in implying that there isn't much spare capacity for transmitting because of the peculiarities of glider flying. I'm a very average Joe glider pilot having scaled the dizzy ranks to a silver but I've never had a problem using the radio at any time so I think it's over egging it a bit to imply (and I may be reading it wrong) that gliders are a special case. Surely the bizzare maelstrom of machinery known as a helicopter shouldn't be transmitting at all if we're talking about spare capacity.
hi Broadlands, in reply to your original question
I think its a well written letter and vey sensible.
Using the radio can be a distraction for a glider pilot flying cross country as the soaring part of the flight does use up a lot of the available mental energy, add to that the navigation which is constantly being re-planed as the flight progress to maximise the time spent in the "good air" i.e up-going. Glider flights tend to be constantly changing altitude which brings different bits of controlled airspace in to play and requires a lot of attention not to infringe airspace. When less than half cloud base glider pilots need to split their attention between soaring and working out how and where to land if the need arises. If those tasks are not enough there is the need to constantly look out and some "domestic" in cockpit issues that longer flights require..The flights tend to be on average around 5 hours long which also saps brain energy, thats quite a long time to concentrate. Compared to other types of flying the work load is very high. Imagine flying a light aircraft and being instructed to climb and descend continuously and divert 30 degrees right for 15 miles then released to own nav before being instructed to change track again and find the frequencies of all ATC units on the varying route....Glider pilots also monitor the gliding frequencies and get useful information on the air ahead so do need to prioritise on monitoring that. But it is appropriate to call or monitor any ATZs we go near and occasionally ask for a clearance through CAS.
Personally I monitor 2 frequencies most of the time but while transiting Oxford recently the controller was doing radar, tower and ground at the same time, much as I wanted to get an idea of where other traffic was I had to leave the frequency as the noise was excessively distracting, especially as I had switched box 2 to Benson, hence it would be useful to educate that controller that he should only do 1 task on the frequency , radar, if he wants to get more gliders participating.
Many controllers do want to hold on to us as long as possible even if they have no useful info to give us and insist on knowing where we came from, where we are going, no of people on board and type etc when all many of us want to do is announce our presence and intentions on the frequency , this does add to our work load and distracts from look out.
Very few controllers understand how to work with gliders so I find the workload on the radio when gliding rather than power flying requires a lot more thought on my part and it becomes hard to explain to some controllers that I can't maintain an altitude or heading easily, even reporting my position is an issue as my gliding nav equipment is in Km s rather than nm s and I don't always have VORs in my database, I guess I could give my position from a BGA way point in kms but that probably wouldn't be much use to a controller or powered pilot?
Basically many glider pilots do call and the letter encourages others to do more, but, it is a distraction than needs to be managed and controller training would help. The BGA has offered to send pilots to the various ATC training colleges and not many have taken up the offer
bb
An interesting view from the BGA. Don't quite agree with the tone though, or that using the radio is a distraction.
Any comments/views?
Any comments/views?
Using the radio can be a distraction for a glider pilot flying cross country as the soaring part of the flight does use up a lot of the available mental energy, add to that the navigation which is constantly being re-planed as the flight progress to maximise the time spent in the "good air" i.e up-going. Glider flights tend to be constantly changing altitude which brings different bits of controlled airspace in to play and requires a lot of attention not to infringe airspace. When less than half cloud base glider pilots need to split their attention between soaring and working out how and where to land if the need arises. If those tasks are not enough there is the need to constantly look out and some "domestic" in cockpit issues that longer flights require..The flights tend to be on average around 5 hours long which also saps brain energy, thats quite a long time to concentrate. Compared to other types of flying the work load is very high. Imagine flying a light aircraft and being instructed to climb and descend continuously and divert 30 degrees right for 15 miles then released to own nav before being instructed to change track again and find the frequencies of all ATC units on the varying route....Glider pilots also monitor the gliding frequencies and get useful information on the air ahead so do need to prioritise on monitoring that. But it is appropriate to call or monitor any ATZs we go near and occasionally ask for a clearance through CAS.
Personally I monitor 2 frequencies most of the time but while transiting Oxford recently the controller was doing radar, tower and ground at the same time, much as I wanted to get an idea of where other traffic was I had to leave the frequency as the noise was excessively distracting, especially as I had switched box 2 to Benson, hence it would be useful to educate that controller that he should only do 1 task on the frequency , radar, if he wants to get more gliders participating.
Many controllers do want to hold on to us as long as possible even if they have no useful info to give us and insist on knowing where we came from, where we are going, no of people on board and type etc when all many of us want to do is announce our presence and intentions on the frequency , this does add to our work load and distracts from look out.
Very few controllers understand how to work with gliders so I find the workload on the radio when gliding rather than power flying requires a lot more thought on my part and it becomes hard to explain to some controllers that I can't maintain an altitude or heading easily, even reporting my position is an issue as my gliding nav equipment is in Km s rather than nm s and I don't always have VORs in my database, I guess I could give my position from a BGA way point in kms but that probably wouldn't be much use to a controller or powered pilot?
Basically many glider pilots do call and the letter encourages others to do more, but, it is a distraction than needs to be managed and controller training would help. The BGA has offered to send pilots to the various ATC training colleges and not many have taken up the offer
bb
I think it’s a good letter, especially considering what the target audience is for it: glider pilots.
There is no doubt that using the radio for ATC comms while trying to soar cross-country adds significant workload to what might already be a challenging activity. Practice helps, as does a transponder but most glider pilots are reluctant to engage with ATC unless they really have to, for the above mentioned reason.
Yes, it is good airmanship to avoid possible areas of conflict and to increase general situational awareness by conversing with ATC but we are talking about uncontrolled airspace here, Class G. See-and-be-seen, random separation, FLARM, TCAS, ADS-B, etc. Any sort of service you get OCAS will be by definition incomplete as who knows what’s out there?
Flying a powered aircraft from A to B (maybe even via C!) along a straight line at a consistent altitude and speed is very different from the average glider which operates through quite a large height band, changing speed and track and altitude almost continually, occasionally stopping to circle. Any information about a glider rapidly becomes stale and it is difficult for ATC to help much if they don’t have a secondary contact.
It is very much a two-way process of understanding: glider pilots are getting better at contacting airfields to give and receive traffic information and ATC are improving their understanding of the typical flightpath and workload that glider pilots face, especially when getting closer to the ground. This is good but it still has some way to go, hence the open letter to encourage this sort of activity.
There is no doubt that using the radio for ATC comms while trying to soar cross-country adds significant workload to what might already be a challenging activity. Practice helps, as does a transponder but most glider pilots are reluctant to engage with ATC unless they really have to, for the above mentioned reason.
Yes, it is good airmanship to avoid possible areas of conflict and to increase general situational awareness by conversing with ATC but we are talking about uncontrolled airspace here, Class G. See-and-be-seen, random separation, FLARM, TCAS, ADS-B, etc. Any sort of service you get OCAS will be by definition incomplete as who knows what’s out there?
Flying a powered aircraft from A to B (maybe even via C!) along a straight line at a consistent altitude and speed is very different from the average glider which operates through quite a large height band, changing speed and track and altitude almost continually, occasionally stopping to circle. Any information about a glider rapidly becomes stale and it is difficult for ATC to help much if they don’t have a secondary contact.
It is very much a two-way process of understanding: glider pilots are getting better at contacting airfields to give and receive traffic information and ATC are improving their understanding of the typical flightpath and workload that glider pilots face, especially when getting closer to the ground. This is good but it still has some way to go, hence the open letter to encourage this sort of activity.
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I agree with the majority of contributors to this thread and see it as encouraging that it is supported by the wider community. I have flown in regional competitions and now have about 1500hrs (gliding) so do understand all the issues highlighted, but definitely do not agree that glider pilots are under so much pressure that the radio is dangerously distracting.
Although well written, I do think the letter has some comments where the tone is misleading. There is a small subsection of glider pilots who do not have any intention of conforming or doing anything they are not required to do and thus are the ones least likely to obtain an rt licence.
They are also those GA who make no allowance for gliders and do not take time to understand why a glider may be close to cloudbase on their planned track.
On the whole a reasonable letter but I still think there are some personal views that could have been toned down.
Although well written, I do think the letter has some comments where the tone is misleading. There is a small subsection of glider pilots who do not have any intention of conforming or doing anything they are not required to do and thus are the ones least likely to obtain an rt licence.
They are also those GA who make no allowance for gliders and do not take time to understand why a glider may be close to cloudbase on their planned track.
On the whole a reasonable letter but I still think there are some personal views that could have been toned down.
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thing, me old buddy, can you possibly tell us more about your gliding experience? you say you have gained the Silver Certificate, that's 5 hours endurance, climb of ? meters, and 50 kilometers x-country. But have you ever flown in competition, with a flock of other gliders sent on the same task?
Believe me, going all by your lonesome on a 50 k. task, one has all the time in the world to announce to the nearby Brize Norton, or Upper Heyford, your position,maneuvers, and intentions. That is, if your basic K8 or K6 has been equipped with a radio...though any competition glider is required to have a working radio, the more basic gliders seldom do.
But also believe me, if you are flying in competition, WHICH HAS BEEN NOTAMMED, if anybody bothers to read notams these days, you have got very little left over attention from KEEPING A BLOODY GOOD LOOKOUT, staying airborne, staying on track, and when you get low, chosing a suitable field. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate etc etc. To any ATC looking at the radar, a flock of gliders on task must be impossible to assist; and can only help the situation by informing people with engines flying in straight lines at predictable altitudes, what may heading their way!
I have had from British controllers very helpful advice, including Brize, on one occasion when I was - on my own, not in a competition, trying to fly 300 k in a standard 15 meter wingspan glider. Got low after getting past Brize, and they relayed a request to Fairford, and got me permission to land there!
Lovely. The Officer in charge at Fairford (he was a Yank) helped move the glider off the runway, bought me a milkshake and a burger, and gave me 4 tickets for the tattoo the following week!
Believe me, going all by your lonesome on a 50 k. task, one has all the time in the world to announce to the nearby Brize Norton, or Upper Heyford, your position,maneuvers, and intentions. That is, if your basic K8 or K6 has been equipped with a radio...though any competition glider is required to have a working radio, the more basic gliders seldom do.
But also believe me, if you are flying in competition, WHICH HAS BEEN NOTAMMED, if anybody bothers to read notams these days, you have got very little left over attention from KEEPING A BLOODY GOOD LOOKOUT, staying airborne, staying on track, and when you get low, chosing a suitable field. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate etc etc. To any ATC looking at the radar, a flock of gliders on task must be impossible to assist; and can only help the situation by informing people with engines flying in straight lines at predictable altitudes, what may heading their way!
I have had from British controllers very helpful advice, including Brize, on one occasion when I was - on my own, not in a competition, trying to fly 300 k in a standard 15 meter wingspan glider. Got low after getting past Brize, and they relayed a request to Fairford, and got me permission to land there!
Lovely. The Officer in charge at Fairford (he was a Yank) helped move the glider off the runway, bought me a milkshake and a burger, and gave me 4 tickets for the tattoo the following week!
...if you are flying in competition, WHICH HAS BEEN NOTAMMED,...
E.g.: MAJOR GLIDING COMPETITION INCLUDING CROSS-COUNTRY ROUTES. INTENSE ACT WI 10NM RADIUS xxxxxxN yyyyyyyW (aerodrome name). UP TO 100 GLIDERS AND 10 TUG ACFT MAY PARTICIPATE. GLIDERS WILL NORMALLY OPR BLW THE INVERSION LVL OR BTN THE TOPS OF ANY CU CLOUDS AND 500FT. It then provides contact details for more information on daily task routes.
Bearing in mind that tasks may be several hundred km long, that tasks will not be published until mid-morning after the competition pilots' briefing (and may be changed on the grid only 20 mins before launching starts) when power pilots will have completed their flight planning, that there may be multiple contests on at the same time in the same part of the UK then the only value is to warn you that there could be more than the usual numbers of gliders anywhere within 100-200 miles of the launch site - but outside controlled airspace.
Originally Posted by PaulisHome
I also like the 'No service required' approach. I don't generally think a basic service is much use - controllers start trying to relay traffic information, but it's too general to be useful. Being told about a an aircraft five miles away doesn't help me very much - I'm more interested in the ones within a few hundred metres. All it says is keep a good lookout, which I'm doing anyway.
Traffic information is simpler from an ATCO point of view when you're working aircraft going in straight(ish) lines from one place to another. When multiple aircraft start to remain in one area, it gets a bit tricky. For a start, they can become a blob on the radar screen and it gets harder to tell which is which. If you're orbiting and the radar refresh is every 6 seconds, then there's the problem that any clock code issued will probably be out of date. Then there's the issue of repeated conflicts with the same aircraft. How many times should an ATCO issue the same piece of traffic before you and they get fed up?
That's not a complaint, just a bit of an insight to the other side.
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Jim59, as your sample NOTAM (could be Lasham, Dunstable, or any club on the calendar (see BGA competition calendar on their website) mentions, gliders are usually working height bands BELOW THE INVERSION, or BETWEEN THE TOP OF ANY CUMULUS CLOUDS AND 500 feet above the ground.
They don't go anywhere if its raining, or if there is no convection. And night flying is most unusual! So if I were flying power on a good soaring day, I would fly above convection - smoother air anyhow. Or before 10 am or after 5 pm. Then you should be quite clear of glider traffic.
They don't go anywhere if its raining, or if there is no convection. And night flying is most unusual! So if I were flying power on a good soaring day, I would fly above convection - smoother air anyhow. Or before 10 am or after 5 pm. Then you should be quite clear of glider traffic.
..BETWEEN THE TOP OF ANY CUMULUS CLOUDS AND 500 feet above the ground.
So if I were flying power on a good soaring day, I would fly above convection - smoother air anyhow. Or before 10 am or after 5 pm. Then you should be quite clear of glider traffic.
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Did you mean the Regional Airport Airspace Grabbing Team? if they get enough airspace reserved for commercial and military aviation, the rest of the flying community is going to be restricted to Wales or Scotland. Shame about that, all you recreational flyers! no more enjoyment for you!
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If I am in the air I use a radio and a transponder. That helps me stay safe and helps others to know where I am and what I am doing and stay safe as well. Why shouldn't I expect anyone else who is in the air to do the same? If it's too difficult (following; Aviate, navigate, communicate) for some they need training, if it is still too difficult they need to find another hobby
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Very good, Simon. But all too often those using the radio and a transponder forget TO KEEP A GOOD LOOKOUT! too busy looking down at all the gadgets in the panel. If you rely on your radio and transponder and ATC to look out for you and keep you clear of other traffic, you may have some uncomfortable encounters, and that is not necessarily with gliders. I suggest you go for the IR and fly only in controlled airspace. The rest of us are required to keep clear (unless we have permission) and so the uncontrolled airspace has developed horrendous pinch points.
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"Why shouldn't I expect anyone else who is in the air to do the same? If it's too difficult... ... they need training, if it is still too difficult they need to find another hobby"
That attitude reads as breathtakingly ignorant and arrogant. Maybe you need to find out about other types of flying. Paramotors, gliders, microlights and many vintage aircraft often don't have transponders and many don't have radios either. In order to stay safe you need to be aware of that when you're flying around in Class G.
That attitude reads as breathtakingly ignorant and arrogant. Maybe you need to find out about other types of flying. Paramotors, gliders, microlights and many vintage aircraft often don't have transponders and many don't have radios either. In order to stay safe you need to be aware of that when you're flying around in Class G.
Simon T,
How does that work? You have a transponder, I have a transponder, but I still don't know where you are!
Regarding the radio, we are in Class G airspace North of Luton. I'm talking to London Information, You are talking to say Cranfield as you are near. How does the fact that we are both using radio help?
Both aids may give a false sense of security when only a good lookout may save you. If you want a useful aid then consider FLARM!
I think Heston said it all...
"If I am in the air I use a radio and a transponder. That helps me stay safe and helps others to know where I am and what I am doing and stay safe as well."
Regarding the radio, we are in Class G airspace North of Luton. I'm talking to London Information, You are talking to say Cranfield as you are near. How does the fact that we are both using radio help?
Both aids may give a false sense of security when only a good lookout may save you. If you want a useful aid then consider FLARM!
Why shouldn't I expect anyone else who is in the air to do the same? If it's too difficult (following; Aviate, navigate, communicate) for some they need training, if it is still too difficult they need to find another hobby.