How bad was this landing?
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It is so refreshing to know aviation still has aviators in its ranks to help offset the mass produced licensed mechanical robots the puppy mill mentality schools churn out.
Exactly....
so what do you do on a black black night with a night landing ? or in very poor visibility when the RVR is on minima ?
To the OP: A 3 point touchdown is always bad. But the important point is to not beat yourself up, but think about the circumstances that got you there so that you can avoid a repeat performance. The principal reason for flat landings is an approach speed that is too fast. Too fast approaches often come from rushed circuits. If you are going to a new airport work hard to make the final approach stable and on speed.
I teach new pilots to make a personal 100 foot call. If the they are not stable and on speed at 100 feet AGL I want them to go around. The discipline of sticking to this creates a virtuous circle. You don't want to go around so you work at getting the approach right. The good approach gives you good landings
Chuck. It is really necessary to pile on the mindless instructor bashing on every thread you post on.
..... Never mind I guess I should have expected you back since there seems to be a shortage of posters you can disrespect/insult on the "other" forum.....
I teach new pilots to make a personal 100 foot call. If the they are not stable and on speed at 100 feet AGL I want them to go around. The discipline of sticking to this creates a virtuous circle. You don't want to go around so you work at getting the approach right. The good approach gives you good landings
Chuck. It is really necessary to pile on the mindless instructor bashing on every thread you post on.
..... Never mind I guess I should have expected you back since there seems to be a shortage of posters you can disrespect/insult on the "other" forum.....
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Long time TW pilot with minimal trike experience with a question, how is it possible to land flat if you have the aircraft attitude trimmed in the landing config? I.e. Nose proud. Seems you would have to be pushing instead of pulling during the round out to get it landing flat.
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Piper boy
incorrect trimming can make a flat or nose wheel landing more likely especially if the pilot is not ready for or expecting the out of trim forces required to change from a descent profile to a landing attitude.
it can help in the descent profile to trim the aircraft slightly nose up so a slight force is required to maintain that descent profile. Changing to a landing attitude then becomes more of a finger control rather than a muscle building arm movement
Pace
incorrect trimming can make a flat or nose wheel landing more likely especially if the pilot is not ready for or expecting the out of trim forces required to change from a descent profile to a landing attitude.
it can help in the descent profile to trim the aircraft slightly nose up so a slight force is required to maintain that descent profile. Changing to a landing attitude then becomes more of a finger control rather than a muscle building arm movement
Pace
I strongly disagree with that technique. On final, the a/c should be trimmed so that positive back pressure is required for speed reduction over the hedge/threshold. Don't trim the feel out of the stick.
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The aircraft should be correctly trimmed for all phases of flight. If it is trimmed for a descent profile it will not be trimmed for a change from that profile to a landing attitude so there will be a certain amount of out of trim forces.
So many flat or nose wheel landings are because the aircraft is not properly trimmed for the descent profile so by the time the pilot gets to change to the landing profile the stick forces are heavy.
What does a correctly trimmed aircraft have to do with a lack of feel?
pace
So many flat or nose wheel landings are because the aircraft is not properly trimmed for the descent profile so by the time the pilot gets to change to the landing profile the stick forces are heavy.
What does a correctly trimmed aircraft have to do with a lack of feel?
pace
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And now we are talking about the real problem -- TRIM!!!!!
You guys are converging onto what I realized this morning actually.
I didn't have a camera in the the cockpit, but it suddenly occurred to me one specific difference in this approach from my other landings, and it may have played an important role.
Normally I trim the a/c aft (nose up) of neutral, when I reduce power and start descending from circuit altitude. This helps me maintaining altitude for a while and decelerate below flap extension speeds and maintain good approach speed with T/O flaps. Then with LDG flaps extended, I have to push the stick quite a lot. THis lends itself to easier go-arounds at any time, just release the forward pressure on stick and add power. If no go-around, at round out I release the forward pressure a bit, but not completely, otherwise the a/c will balloon, then a few second later I neutralize the stick and start pulling back gradually.
But on this specific occasion, the final was quite long, the parachuters walk across the runway was disturbing and I did something I never did before. I glanced at the IAS and it was below the approach speed, so I added power AND TRIMMED THE A/C DIFFERENTLY, i.e., a little forward of neutral again. THe thinking was that whatever should distract me, I must not stall out on the final by any chance, because that would have really amazed all those parachuters.
This meant that the a/c arrived to threshold with a little nose-down trim instead of my usual little nose-up trim. So it can be that my muscle memory release pressure on the stick as preparation for flare, the a/c started to nose over again (you can see this attitude change in the video recording in slow motion), instead of the usual behaviour of nosing up. I missed that moment and couldn't correct in time.
So I suspect now that I might have landed flat because in this specific approach I set a slightly nose-down trim, instead of my usual slighly nose-up trim. What do you think about this? Could this be a factor as well? (Apart from all the rest we discussed already)
I didn't have a camera in the the cockpit, but it suddenly occurred to me one specific difference in this approach from my other landings, and it may have played an important role.
Normally I trim the a/c aft (nose up) of neutral, when I reduce power and start descending from circuit altitude. This helps me maintaining altitude for a while and decelerate below flap extension speeds and maintain good approach speed with T/O flaps. Then with LDG flaps extended, I have to push the stick quite a lot. THis lends itself to easier go-arounds at any time, just release the forward pressure on stick and add power. If no go-around, at round out I release the forward pressure a bit, but not completely, otherwise the a/c will balloon, then a few second later I neutralize the stick and start pulling back gradually.
But on this specific occasion, the final was quite long, the parachuters walk across the runway was disturbing and I did something I never did before. I glanced at the IAS and it was below the approach speed, so I added power AND TRIMMED THE A/C DIFFERENTLY, i.e., a little forward of neutral again. THe thinking was that whatever should distract me, I must not stall out on the final by any chance, because that would have really amazed all those parachuters.
This meant that the a/c arrived to threshold with a little nose-down trim instead of my usual little nose-up trim. So it can be that my muscle memory release pressure on the stick as preparation for flare, the a/c started to nose over again (you can see this attitude change in the video recording in slow motion), instead of the usual behaviour of nosing up. I missed that moment and couldn't correct in time.
So I suspect now that I might have landed flat because in this specific approach I set a slightly nose-down trim, instead of my usual slighly nose-up trim. What do you think about this? Could this be a factor as well? (Apart from all the rest we discussed already)
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If we start from the point that the aircraft should always be trimmed for any change of configuration then it follows that changing from a descent profile to a landing profile even if the aircraft is trimmed for the descent profile it will be out of trim for the landing profile if no changes are made.
If you are used to a certain pressure on the column/stick and apply that pressure with the aircraft out of trim for the flare it is possible that is why you landed flat on this occasion.
Trimming should be instinctive and natural to you like breathing otherwise you make hard work for yourself
Pace
If you are used to a certain pressure on the column/stick and apply that pressure with the aircraft out of trim for the flare it is possible that is why you landed flat on this occasion.
Trimming should be instinctive and natural to you like breathing otherwise you make hard work for yourself
Pace
never trim the flare.....you have one hand on the stick, one on the throttle, unless you have an electric trim hat of some sort you don't have a hand for the trim wheel. Maybe I have been unlucky not to have that luxury
And if you do have electric trim, the last thing you want is trim runaway in the last stage of the approach to landing. I always aim to be stable and trimmed for the approach as soon as possible and then leave the trim alone.
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Okay, so I should have just added more power to regain speed, without touching the trim already set up for the final approach. In the same way as I don't retract flaps on approach, I should also stick to the normal nose-up trim that I am used to, and add power to maintain speed, no change to a proven and practiced landing config.
This is a very good lesson I learnt from this incident.
(Just to put it into perspective what low-hour pilot means: I had about 1 hour solo PIC time in this aircraft before this specific flight and about 12 hours in total with instructor, operator check ride, authority skill test, in this aircraft. My total flight time with all aircraft: ca. 130 hours, c.a.60-70 as PIC. So there is a lot to learn...)
Thanks a lot, I love to take an HD camera along on my flights for reviewing any issues later. Some extracts are on Youtube. Unfortunately, this time I couldn't secure the camera tightly enough to the tail mooring hole, and there was a lot of vibration under takeoff and cruise power. The vibration reduced with lower engine power setting, hence it became somewhat acceptable for the approach and landing phase. I am really sad that the cruise part is shaking too much for video processing. Unfortunately the battery also ran out by the time of our landing at our home base, so I couldn't show that I can actually land a plane normally too 
Maybe next time!
This is a very good lesson I learnt from this incident.
(Just to put it into perspective what low-hour pilot means: I had about 1 hour solo PIC time in this aircraft before this specific flight and about 12 hours in total with instructor, operator check ride, authority skill test, in this aircraft. My total flight time with all aircraft: ca. 130 hours, c.a.60-70 as PIC. So there is a lot to learn...)
Originally Posted by P6 Driver
what an excellent quality video!
Maybe next time!
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Don't trim the feel out of the stick.
You land an airplane by sight and attitude, there is not a certified airplane on earth that needs trim to change the attitude from approach attitude to the touch down attitude...that is what the elevator is there for.
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You land an airplane by sight and attitude, there is not a certified airplane on earth that needs trim to change the attitude from approach attitude to the touch down attitude...that is what the elevator is there for.
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And back when you could low fly (really low) without getting filmed by someone with a phone camera, I used to wind on a turn of up trim and fly at high power, high speed and a forward push held on the stick.
It was my 'sneeze factor', and if I suddenly needed height I had speed to trade for it and instant back stick just by relaxing the push.
It was my 'sneeze factor', and if I suddenly needed height I had speed to trade for it and instant back stick just by relaxing the push.
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I think some are misunderstanding what I am saying regarding trim. I am not suggesting as you flare that you are winding trim in the flare I am suggesting that in the last part of the approach you premeditate the trim changes and slightly trim the aircraft so a little forward pressure is required on the last part of the approach.
Some aircraft are different regarding trim forces. The Seneca twin is notorious for flat landing and being heavy on controls if not trimmed correctly.
Many pilot complain about their landing behaviour yet that slight premeditation on trim will make all the difference to landing the aircraft.
i have not had a bad landing in over 20 years so must be doing something right If you accept that the aircraft should be correctly trimmed for every configuration change then why should it be out of trim for the actual landing bit?
Pace
Some aircraft are different regarding trim forces. The Seneca twin is notorious for flat landing and being heavy on controls if not trimmed correctly.
Many pilot complain about their landing behaviour yet that slight premeditation on trim will make all the difference to landing the aircraft.
i have not had a bad landing in over 20 years so must be doing something right
If you accept that the aircraft should be correctly trimmed for every configuration change then why should it be out of trim for the actual landing bit?Pace
Last edited by Pace; 6th Aug 2015 at 07:07.
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It would feel very alien to me having to apply forward pressure during approach.
Just imagine for one second that you had a sophisticated Gizmo on the aircraft which automatically trimmed the aircraft for you would your landing be better like that? correctly trimmed for the landing configuration than what some are saying which is that you should accept landing an out of trim aircraft which is what some are arguing for.
I cannot see the logic in that
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 6th Aug 2015 at 08:10.