PPR, What's the deal?

[piperboy84]

I understand the requirement for PPR at small private strips where there may be a need for the owner/manager to verify the current conditions for landing are suitable or where the length and hazards are not published anywhere, but why do larger airfields that are city or government owned and have commercial traffic and officially published field info require PPR for GA aircraft.

What's the point?

[9 lives]

My experience with GA ops in larger PPR airports has been that if it's not for traffic flow/volume/compatibility issues, it's usually for apron and ground security reasons. Some larger airports are not set up to accommodate GA aircraft, and simply don't want them. They probably do not have the privilege to exclude them entirely, so they "discourage" by enacting PPR, and often "fees" so the GA aircraft really has to want to go.

used to fly in and out of Toronto International more than weekly, indeed flying three GA aircraft which were based there over the years. Then their operational focus shifted, and PPR and fees caused it to be entirely not desirable to fly in. I have not been back as a pilot for 25 years.

In contrast, when Montreal Mirabel was still operational, I would fly in from time to time. They seemed so bored, they'd welcome any plane, but had zero services to handle GA aircraft. One blowy winter night, after realizing there were no tiedowns, I asked if I look taxi around looking for a sheltered place to chock it. "Wherever you like" was the reply, so I actually parked the 182 under a boarding gate, in the lee of the terminal (I wish I'd had a camera with me!).

[chevvron]

In the UK, an airfield with an 'Ordinary' licence rather than a 'Public' licence is required by law to notify a PPR requirement. In addition, the local planning authority may also make it a 'condition' of granting planning permission as the airfield may have a limit on the number of movements allowed, thus the airport operator may need to allocate 'slots' for movements.
As an example, one airport I worked at had a limit on the number of movements allowed at weekends, whilst another had a limit prior to 10 am on sundays, so anyone turning up unannounced might break these limits.

[The Ancient Geek]

Also in the UK all unlicenced strips are legally private and no landings are legally allowed without the prior permission of the owner.

All to be found (somewhere) on the CAA website.

[18greens]

But what does ppr mean? A radio call, a phone call, a fax, 5 days warning by post in ink on freshly torn velum?

I usually phone and often get good info as well as being booked in so less chat inbound. Eg 'We have your details join downwind', lovely.

I understand that ppr can just be the call 5 minutes out. Not really sure what the actual requirement being addressed is other than people bumbling into circuits unbriefed.

The one time I didn't ppr by phone I turned up at Alderney to find out they had no fuel. Had I called I would have been prepared.

[The Ancient Geek]

The damage to Forfar strip (see other thread) is a good example of why PPR is essential. The idiot who landed on a soggy field could very easily ended up with a badly damaged aircraft.

It only takes a few minutes to call and ensure that the field is safe to land.

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

It's a myth that a CAA 'Public use' aerodrome licence allows freedom to come and go without PPR.

Read the conditions on any CAA aerodrome licence here:

Condition 1 - The aerodrome is licensed for public use and shall at all times when it is available for the take off or landing of aircraft be so available to all persons on equal terms and conditions.

Condition 8 - Without prejudice to Condition 1, nothing in this licence shall be taken to confer on any person the right to use the aerodrome without the consent of the licensee.

Which to my legally untrained interpretation, means that PPR can be required anywhere if the licensee so wishes. I'm certain that the CAA can't give blanket permission for an aircraft to land at a private aerodrome. Many 'public use' aerodromes don't require PPR but try calling up Gatwick or an RAF Base and see how far you get with lobbing in for a coffee on spec.

[fireflybob]

But what does ppr mean? A radio call, a phone call, a fax, 5 days warning by post in ink on freshly torn velum?

Some airfields are "PPR to non radio aircraft".

[PA28181]

It only takes a few minutes to call and ensure that the field is safe to land.

The OP did say, why is it necessary at large aerodromes that could easily take traffic "on-spec" and not a muddy field with grazing sheep.

[The Ancient Geek]

Indeed, but there are many reasons why a larger field with hard runways may be closed, unsafe, or otherwise unable to accept your arrival.

Runway works, lack of fire cover, no AVGAS, how many more can you think of ?

[PA28181]

Indeed, but there are many reasons why a larger field with hard runways may be closed, unsafe, or otherwise unable to accept your arrival.

Runway works, lack of fire cover, no AVGAS, how many more can you think of ?

If it's that bad I'm sure there would be a notam which we all read religiously

[piperboy84]

If PPR is required at the larger fields perhaps putting it on the ATIS would be a good idea

[OpenCirrus619]

My views on "PPR" are summed up by the following points:

• If PPR then I MUST get permission to land BEFORE I do so
• If I'm planning to land somewhere then I will do this via email or phone
• If I'm bimbling, and feel like dropping in somewhere, then I'll do it on the radio
• If I request PPR on the radio and get no response then that is ALWAYS taken as a "NO"
• If someone gets upset because I'm asking for PPR on the radio (as opposed to by email or phone) then they should just say "NO" - not go off on a rant, followed by giving permission

OC619

[Legalapproach]

Have a look at rules 11 and 12 of the Rules of The Air Regulations 2015

[PA28181]

Struggling to see how rule 11 has anything to do with PPR as it's about entering & leaving an ATZ

rule 12 relates to aircraft already on the ground...........so not much help really.

[Legalapproach]

Rule 12 applies from the moment you arrive on the ground - it's the rule the CAA prosecute under if you land without permission. Unless you land vertically and then don't move!

It used to be Rule 40

I don't have a copy of the 2015 rules in front of me so couldn't remember which applied but have a feeling that rule 11 relates to flying within an ATZ and therefore you would have to get permission.

[AdamFrisch]

I really dislike the UK's blatant misuse of PPR on general use airports.

PPR is a safety hazard, pure and simple. It's not standardised or following any procedure or aviation practice. It's unattainable by air or in an emergency. It rarely gets acknowledged even if communication is initiated. It adds confusion. It excludes and it hinders and hurst GA. It's just a retarded system invented by people who put a lot of weight on their own importance and want to be able to take tea breaks between arrivals.

How many student pilots have pressed on into even worse weather or with technical malfunctions because they didn't get PPR and are terrified of the repercussions should they attempt a precautionary landing without it?

If it's so essential, how come UK is pretty much the only place that uses this system? So that someone can say to you that the "grass field can get water bogged after rain"? Honestly, how many non-towered UK airports can you fly to today without having to obtain a PPR? Not very many. Why? They can't all be impossibly hard airfields demanding sky god skills?

If you run an airfield, then run an airfield and attract as many customers as possible. If you want to run an nursery, then do that instead.

[TheOddOne]

I liken it to dropping in to see Aunt Maud for afternoon tea without giving her a call first to see if she's
a) in
b) entertaining a gentleman caller.
Very rude.

In our case, we want to be able to tell people about things such as parachuting or avoiding the severe curlover from the cliff or the fact that the runway is shut for a motoring event; stuff we can't say over the Air/Ground and anyway our radio's not manned much of the time these days.

So PLEASE just ring up first, if only to check on the weather!

TOO

[Jan Olieslagers]

If it's so essential, how come UK is pretty much the only place that uses this system? So that someone can say to you that the "grass field can get water bogged after rain"? Honestly, how many non-towered UK airports can you fly to today without having to obtain a PPR? Not very many. Why? They can't all be impossibly hard airfields demanding sky god skills?

If you run an airfield, then run an airfield and attract as many customers as possible. If you want to run an nursery, then do that instead.

Several misconceptions here.

1) The UK is not the only country to have PPR at many fields. Not by a long way. For one example, here in Belgium ALL fields are PPR except the five biggest - and those are prohibitively expensive to many private pilots. Holland much the same, a lot of PPR in Germany too.

2) Neither should PPR fields be harder to use than others, that is never the reason for PPR. At the smaller fields, PPR is one of the few options the poor operator has, to make sure visiting pilots will have a visit as safe and as enjoyable as possible - I hope you have no issue with that? As a counter-example, I well remember listening in to the radio at EBGB and some fool come blundering in announcing intentions contrary to all the local rules. The poor AFIS operator had to remind him several times of the published procedures, even though the fool had put his signature on the faxed PPR form acknowledging them. The AFIS operator even had to remind him he risked having his plane impounded if he continuued as announced. No surprise there was a cross-Atlantic accent to his R/T... Had he gone on, it would have been in all the newspapers, likely have created an official investigation for busting EBBR airspace, and added munition to those that want EBGB Grimbergen to be closed. Are you advocating that? And this chap even HAD done the PPR, only with not enough care.

3) Most of all, if one operates an aerodrome it is not in order to have "customers". There is even less money to be made from operating an aerodrome than from flying a small plane. For one example, my homefield sees perhaps 20 visiting planes on a really sunny weekend, no more than a 1000 per annum so that makes for no more than 5000 € revenue - that's peanuts compared to the total cost. Aerodromes in most European countries should be considered charities. If they impose PPR, let us accept they may have their reasons, and be grateful they keep up the good work against all whining from nimbies, ever stricter rulegiving, bad publicity at the slightest incident, and pilots always wanting more for ever less money.

On the other hand, I do agree bigger aerodromes should not abuse the PPR procedure to discourage recreational pilots from visiting. Most of these fields are run with at least some kind of support from local authorities and they should deliver up to that.

[AdamFrisch]

Then why doesn't any of them allow PPR from the air when the have either a tower or an A/G, if it's just for my best interest or safety? It boggles the mind. It's just high vis west mania in combination with sky-god syndrome.

Imagine if I called up my customers each year and asked them to specify on what exact dates they would employ me in the coming year, for how long, and how much they would pay me. And then give them a bo**ocking if they call in with extra work that wasn't previously scheduled. It's the exact same principle.