Logging hours before ppl?

[Westley]

Hello,
Just a question, I'm currently doing my ppl and logging hours as p/ut when flying with my instructor.
But I also have been flying with another guy (not an instructor) who owns his own aircraft, I take off, fly the journey and he lands- now to the best of my knowledge I cant log these hours as he's not an instructor and I don't hold a ppl yet, so my question is, is there any way I can log them?

Regards.

[fireflybob]

In a word no - you are a passenger as the aircraft captain is not a qualified/licensed flying instructor.

[Cusco]

In most logbooks there's a column on the far right called 'any other flying' or somesuch.

You can put it in there and make a note in 'comments' for your own information, that you were piloting the a/c (presumably you are in the RHS?)
But legally you were a passenger so you may not count these hours towards any flying total while in training.

Once you've got your PPL its a dufferent matter.

Cusco.

[Westley]

Thanks for the replies, it is as I thought!
No problems, just thought I'd ask as the forever changing rules within the caa/easa it might of changed

[thing]

Once you've got your PPL its a dufferent matter.

Intrigued. Pray expand. Are you saying that the non pi/c can log flying time if he's physically at the controls?

Only reason I ask is that my regular flying buddy isn't a member of one (of the too many, I'm up to five at the moment) flying clubs I belong to therefore he can't log flying time as I have to be Pi/c of the a/c from that club even if he flies the whole flight apart from the take off and landing.

[Cusco]

Are you saying that the non pi/c can log flying time if he's physically at the controls?

No:

I'm saying that once the OP has his PPL he can fly his mates aeroplane as much as he likes and log it towards his total hours, whoever is in the a/c with him.

Unless it's an examiner for a test/ renewal but I can't be ar sed to go into that one.

I was answering the OP's question/scenario, not yours

Cusco

[BillieBob]

I'm saying that once the OP has his PPL he can fly his mates aeroplane as much as he likes and log it towards his total hours, whoever is in the a/c with him.

Only if he is nominated as the Pilot in Command (i.e. only one pilot can log flight hours in a single-pilot aeroplane).

[PA28181]

Just a bit pedantic here,

only one pilot can log flight hours in a single-pilot aeroplane)

Of course if an FI is on board then both can log hours

[bartonflyer]

In years gone by when my IR was current myself & another member of our Cherokee 6 group used to sometimes do our renewal flight with the inestimable John Kohler at Liverpool airport (anyone else remember John?) - first candidate would fly with the second sat in the back, do the excercise then on the climb out from the second approach John would take control and just say ( in that Texan drawl) OK swap!
So Pilot (who had been flying) moved rearwards and next candidate took his place in the LH seat.
Both of us logged the hours!
Both of us felt fairly happy at having survived

[Pete O'Tewbe]

Do you mean that for a flight (chock-to-chock) that lasted, say, two hours, both of the candidates logged two hours each?

[bartonflyer]

No, we'd log an hour each - ignoring the 2 minute scramble of changing seats -

[Pete O'Tewbe]

I see. Thanks

[ChickenHouse]

@Westley: I advice not to log these hours in any way. First, your friend is not an instructor and may get in serious trouble, if some official comes after him for executing the rights of FI without license. Second, you are threatening your license, if the same kind of official comes after you for piloting an aircraft without license, without FI and no flight mandate from your ATO - worst case you get a lifelong ban for getting a license.

[Heston]

Chickenhouse - you're being too dogmatic about that. Many pilot's log books sold in the UK have a column headed "Passenger - for interest only" and it is quite OK for Westley to record the flights he takes as a passenger and tot up the hours in that column. BUT those hours don't count for anything in terms of gaining his licence.

And as he's recording time spent as a passenger, he should record the whole flight time for this to make any sense - not the time he spends handling the controls. Which opens up the second worm-can: is it allowed for a passenger to take the controls of a single pilot aeroplane when the PIC is not an instructor? General view that I encounter is that it is perfectly OK as long as it is fully understood that PIC is always PIC and is responsible for the conduct of the flight.

But, having said all that, although the situation Westley describes may be sort-of legal, it is really bad practice. Passengers taking the controls for a few minutes in the cruise is one thing, but a passenger doing all of the flight apart from the landing? No way is that safe, or helpful to Westley's learning. The guy who is PIC is being pretty dumb if you ask me.

Don't do it.

[Whopity]

A log book is a personal document, you can put in it what you want and there is no offical who can say otherwise. What you can't do is claim hours that do not qualify as trainig or for revalidation purposes. Such hours can be logged as Passenger or Supernumary or even Radio Operator!

[RTN11]

As whopity says, I'd log the flights, but make it clear that it was for interest only and not licencing purposes. I usually do this by entering take off and landing times, but not putting a total time in any column, thereby totals when I add up the flights are unaffected. In remarks, I also put for interest only.

People get very wound up over what you can and can't log, the facts of it are there is only one PIC, and you need to decide that before you go (whether you have a license or not) and there are more reasons to log things than just for licence issue, you just need to be very clear what will count towards your PPL when you apply.