Legality of flying as 'safety pilot'
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Unless you're actually training for something I suppose. My licence was restricted whilst I was originally doing my PPL, but I carried on training whilst the issue was resolved.
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in this case the safety pilot is the PIC.
In the event of an accident the insurance has said that it will pay out if the passenger, cause that what he is without a medical, is handling the controls.
But the PIC is still responsible for all details and legality's of the flight.
In the event of an accident the insurance has said that it will pay out if the passenger, cause that what he is without a medical, is handling the controls.
But the PIC is still responsible for all details and legality's of the flight.
Guys, this is really simple.
No medical means no flying. This is why we have medicals.
No medical means no flying. This is why we have medicals.
Yet I'm not sure that a CRI may instruct a student who has no medical at all,
Why not? They're a qualified pilot, just one without a valid medical.
As I said earlier, why not try for once interpreting the regulations in a way that makes it easier, not harder, for people to safely enjoy their flying hobby.
G
The role of 'Safety Pilot' shouldn't be taken on lightly. You don't get to log any flight time, but if there is an accident, people will ask 'why didn't you do something?'
I would advise anyone who is contemplating acting as a Safety Pilot to thoroughly familiarise themselves with the medical condition of the Pilot, and be aware what form any incapacitation may take.
Incapacitation takes many forms, and rarely follows the classic chest gripping keel over that tends to spring to mind. The onset of incapacitation is often gradual and can go unrecognised by both the Pilot and Safety Pilot.
At altitude, there should be time for a such a gradual incapacitation to be discovered before it becomes critical, but on final approach, the situation is different.
To guard agains this as Safety Pilot, you may consider asking the Pilot a simple question on final to check for a response. This can be something you pre-arrange with the Pilot, if you think he/she would be receptive to such a thing, or something you just do without them realising it's true purpose.
MJ
I would advise anyone who is contemplating acting as a Safety Pilot to thoroughly familiarise themselves with the medical condition of the Pilot, and be aware what form any incapacitation may take.
Incapacitation takes many forms, and rarely follows the classic chest gripping keel over that tends to spring to mind. The onset of incapacitation is often gradual and can go unrecognised by both the Pilot and Safety Pilot.
At altitude, there should be time for a such a gradual incapacitation to be discovered before it becomes critical, but on final approach, the situation is different.
To guard agains this as Safety Pilot, you may consider asking the Pilot a simple question on final to check for a response. This can be something you pre-arrange with the Pilot, if you think he/she would be receptive to such a thing, or something you just do without them realising it's true purpose.
MJ
Last edited by Mach Jump; 27th Nov 2014 at 17:47. Reason: Spelling
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In would advise anyone who is contemplating acting as a Safety Pilot to thoroughly familiarise themselves with the medical condition of the Pilot, and be aware what form any incapacitation may take.
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No flying as pilot in command, I've yet to see a rule that prohibits a pilot without a valid medical from flying as a student.
Quote:
Yet I'm not sure that a CRI may instruct a student who has no medical at all,
Why not? They're a qualified pilot, just one without a valid medical.
Quote:
Yet I'm not sure that a CRI may instruct a student who has no medical at all,
Why not? They're a qualified pilot, just one without a valid medical.
There is no reason this could not be a CRI. A CRI can only train licence holders, not having a medical does not negate the licence merely prevents the holder excercising the privileges as pilot in command.
I quoted the bit I was responding to, I'm not trying to mislead anybody Bose.
It does all rather feel like we're all in violent agreement anyhow.
- True safety pilot, if mandated by medical conditions, doesn't log unless they're required.
- Can fly with an instructor, and log as P/UT
- Can fly with a qualified pilot, and handle the controls as a passenger, but captain is taking full responsibility for the flight (as of course an instructor would, This is riskier, as the non-instructor pilot doesn't have the supervisory skills.
- The captain, or safety pilot, of any aeroplane, should know about any health issues of somebody else on board, especially if they're handling the controls.
- As the aircraft owner holds a licence, even if it's lapsed or the medical invalid, there's no difference between an FI and a CRI.
Is there anywhere else to go with the arguments?
G
It does all rather feel like we're all in violent agreement anyhow.
- True safety pilot, if mandated by medical conditions, doesn't log unless they're required.
- Can fly with an instructor, and log as P/UT
- Can fly with a qualified pilot, and handle the controls as a passenger, but captain is taking full responsibility for the flight (as of course an instructor would, This is riskier, as the non-instructor pilot doesn't have the supervisory skills.
- The captain, or safety pilot, of any aeroplane, should know about any health issues of somebody else on board, especially if they're handling the controls.
- As the aircraft owner holds a licence, even if it's lapsed or the medical invalid, there's no difference between an FI and a CRI.
Is there anywhere else to go with the arguments?
G
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this is the on going saga of if a none FI/CRI can do flights as PIC with someone else manipulating the controls on a flight.
We are now going to have the usual round circle of arguments about if anyone other than the PIC can touch the controls during a flight if the PIC isn't a FI or CRI.
The usual people will say its completely illegal.
Then the other group of us will say no its not.
Then there will be a heap of EASA regs posted.
People won't change their minds.
Those that continue to allow it will carry on and those that think it illegal will carry on not letting it happen.
Until there is a test case goes through court nobody will know who is right.
But everyday in the UK there will be people flying aircraft without a FI/CRI onboard and even landing them with the full knowledge and coverage of insurance companys.
We are now going to have the usual round circle of arguments about if anyone other than the PIC can touch the controls during a flight if the PIC isn't a FI or CRI.
The usual people will say its completely illegal.
Then the other group of us will say no its not.
Then there will be a heap of EASA regs posted.
People won't change their minds.
Those that continue to allow it will carry on and those that think it illegal will carry on not letting it happen.
Until there is a test case goes through court nobody will know who is right.
But everyday in the UK there will be people flying aircraft without a FI/CRI onboard and even landing them with the full knowledge and coverage of insurance companys.
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"Quote:
as he is the only legal pilot on board and by gods heaven, has to sit left.
Nonsense. If that were the case every instructor would be sitting on the left then.
The flight manual will normally dictate were P1 sits. wish that old chestnut would go away."
This is an old wives tale and we did it to death here recently! I've never seen a flight manual which dictated where the P1 must sit. Certainly it's common (especially in tandem aircraft) for the manual to specify the seat to be used for solo flights but that's not the same thing as dictating where the aircraft commander must sit. If I fly a PA28 with a passenger I can chose to sit in the left or right, nothing to stop me!!
Sometimes a company Ops manual will stipulate who sits where but not the flight manual. Just one last thing; don't go siting in an unfamiliar seat without the appropriate training and experience. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's smart!!
3 Point
as he is the only legal pilot on board and by gods heaven, has to sit left.
Nonsense. If that were the case every instructor would be sitting on the left then.
The flight manual will normally dictate were P1 sits. wish that old chestnut would go away."
This is an old wives tale and we did it to death here recently! I've never seen a flight manual which dictated where the P1 must sit. Certainly it's common (especially in tandem aircraft) for the manual to specify the seat to be used for solo flights but that's not the same thing as dictating where the aircraft commander must sit. If I fly a PA28 with a passenger I can chose to sit in the left or right, nothing to stop me!!
Sometimes a company Ops manual will stipulate who sits where but not the flight manual. Just one last thing; don't go siting in an unfamiliar seat without the appropriate training and experience. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's smart!!
3 Point
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But that doesn't apply if they have completely removed the medical.
3 point
Maybe the phrasing didn't make the point "I wish that old chestnut would go away" pertaining to to the FM quote...
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I have filled this safety pilot role a few times for friends. In each case I was PIC in their aircraft while they flew. I was not an instructor, and this did rankle Transport Canada, but it was unwinnable fight against me.
But, during one exchange with TC, with the ugly finger wiggling at me, I was reminded that there are three possible medical status for pilots:
Medically fit, Never applied for a pilot medical (= unknown), and medical withdrawn for a known reason.
In the case of withdrawn, it will be for one of two risk reasons: Risk of sudden loss of consciousness, or sudden incapacitation. If it's loss of consciousness, that's lower risk for the safety of flight with an attentive safety pilot (noticing the other pilot is no longer flying in time). If it's sudden incapacitation, there is a greater risk to safety, with a pilot who might induce an unwanted control input.
So, the safety pilot has at least a double problem (triple if their are pax in the back seat). The safety pilot is going to have to fly, and perhaps from the right side, which may be uncommon to them, and, they are going to be worried and distracted by a sudden medical event requiring quick intervention.
So, going back to the finger waving discussion with TC, I pointed out that my being an instructor would not increase the flight safety, if my friend faded, and if he did, there would be the same risk were he to be a pax on the right, or person flying on the left - it's the same controls he would interfere with on either side.
Undertake this with caution, and as a pilot untitled to fly PIC from the seat you will occupy should it come up. It would be wise to do some solo from that side, just to get comfortable.
As for specifying the "P1" seat in the Flight Manual, the only type of many I have checked, which specifies, is the Caravan, which does say PIC left seat only. If not stated, PIC in either position.
But, during one exchange with TC, with the ugly finger wiggling at me, I was reminded that there are three possible medical status for pilots:
Medically fit, Never applied for a pilot medical (= unknown), and medical withdrawn for a known reason.
In the case of withdrawn, it will be for one of two risk reasons: Risk of sudden loss of consciousness, or sudden incapacitation. If it's loss of consciousness, that's lower risk for the safety of flight with an attentive safety pilot (noticing the other pilot is no longer flying in time). If it's sudden incapacitation, there is a greater risk to safety, with a pilot who might induce an unwanted control input.
So, the safety pilot has at least a double problem (triple if their are pax in the back seat). The safety pilot is going to have to fly, and perhaps from the right side, which may be uncommon to them, and, they are going to be worried and distracted by a sudden medical event requiring quick intervention.
So, going back to the finger waving discussion with TC, I pointed out that my being an instructor would not increase the flight safety, if my friend faded, and if he did, there would be the same risk were he to be a pax on the right, or person flying on the left - it's the same controls he would interfere with on either side.
Undertake this with caution, and as a pilot untitled to fly PIC from the seat you will occupy should it come up. It would be wise to do some solo from that side, just to get comfortable.
As for specifying the "P1" seat in the Flight Manual, the only type of many I have checked, which specifies, is the Caravan, which does say PIC left seat only. If not stated, PIC in either position.
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No medical means no flying. This is why we have medicals.
In the commercial world I do know of, and indeed have met, pilots who have been restricted to multi-crew licenses due to a medical condition.
So a multi-crew restricted Captain of a 747 is ok but a multi-crew restricted C152 captain isn't??
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There's an information sheet available on the CAA website for those who have a medical with an Operational Safety Pilot Limitation (OSL). This allows the pilot with the OSL to act as pilot-in-command.
The CAA definition of a safety pilot is:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/2013012...efingSheet.pdf
If they cannot act as PIC then clearly they are either a student under the guidance of a qualified instructor, or a passenger.
ifitaint...
The CAA definition of a safety pilot is:
A safety pilot is a pilot who is current and qualified to act as Pilot In Command (PIC) on the class/type of aeroplane and carried on board the aeroplane for the purpose of taking over control should the person acting as the PIC become incapacitated.
If they cannot act as PIC then clearly they are either a student under the guidance of a qualified instructor, or a passenger.
ifitaint...
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So a multi-crew restricted Captain of a 747 is ok but a multi-crew restricted C152 captain isn't?
The 747 skipper wouldn't be allowed to say teach PPL pre solo exercises I believe in a C152.
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The 747 skipper wouldn't be allowed to say teach PPL pre solo exercises I believe in a C152.
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Shsll I use 50 cal to do the shooting?
No medical is no flying unless with an Instructor.
Having a medical restriction that requires a safety pilot is a totally different thing. You still have a medical its just restricted to flying with a safety pilot.
No medical is no flying unless with an Instructor.
Having a medical restriction that requires a safety pilot is a totally different thing. You still have a medical its just restricted to flying with a safety pilot.
No medical means no flying. This is why we have medicals.
Bose. Slightly simplistic I feel. I have heard of, but do not personally know of (prepared to be shot down here), ppls who have been medically restricted to flying with a safety pilot (i.e. someone who can take over from an otherwise perfectly competent pilot in the event of a heart attack or similar). I would think that this doesn't need to be an instructor (again prepared to be shot down)
In the commercial world I do know of, and indeed have met, pilots who have been restricted to multi-crew licenses due to a medical condition.
So a multi-crew restricted Captain of a 747 is ok but a multi-crew restricted C152 captain isn't??
Bose. Slightly simplistic I feel. I have heard of, but do not personally know of (prepared to be shot down here), ppls who have been medically restricted to flying with a safety pilot (i.e. someone who can take over from an otherwise perfectly competent pilot in the event of a heart attack or similar). I would think that this doesn't need to be an instructor (again prepared to be shot down)
In the commercial world I do know of, and indeed have met, pilots who have been restricted to multi-crew licenses due to a medical condition.
So a multi-crew restricted Captain of a 747 is ok but a multi-crew restricted C152 captain isn't??
Last edited by S-Works; 30th Nov 2014 at 20:23.