Plastic funnel and plastic fuel can-is it safe?
This may be of interest.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosi...containers.pdf
https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf95512323.pdf
Anti-spill spout adaptors are available that can be used to prevent flashback of flames and internal explosions when pouring petrol from plastic petrol containers. These adaptors can either be used in place of the spout supplied or may be integrated into the design of the petrol container. A study by HSL (www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrpdf/rr1015.pdf) on a sample of these adaptors has demonstrated that they are capable of preventing flashback but can have limitations in their ability to prevent overfill and spillage. They therefore do not eliminate all the risk involved in using petrol and care is still needed when using them to avoid spillages and accidents.
https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf95512323.pdf
Last edited by megan; 18th Mar 2017 at 14:37. Reason: Add link
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Petrol vapour is the dangerous bit. In liquid form, petrol is relatively safe. A lighted cigarette thrown into a bucket of petrol will normally be extinguished. If you do try to test this, stand up wind, just in case! The things we did as kids...
"is it safe" says the title.
Not a good question to ask - most things in aviation (and in life in general) are more or less safe - or more or less dangerous.
Which makes me like the above response by G0ULI.
Not a good question to ask - most things in aviation (and in life in general) are more or less safe - or more or less dangerous.
Which makes me like the above response by G0ULI.
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Here in rural SW France, when we arrived six years ago, I was horrified to see people filling two or three 20 litre plastic jerry cans of petrol and popping them in the car to run various garden machinery. Now, along with other members of my marina, I'm afraid to say I do the same...none of us have been blown up..yet.
I presume this will be frowned upon by the members of this forum. Mea culpa.
I presume this will be frowned upon by the members of this forum. Mea culpa.
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Back in the early 1980's there was an article in GASCO (or whatever it was called then) warning about plastic containers and fuel, there were some stats in there about how many times it had gone wrong, and a couple were aviation related. There was serious mention of wearing nylon clothing while doing it.
I read it in the flying club having just filled a Rallye from two large plastic drums with no earthing kit and wearing a trendy nylon jacket. Our CFI Derek Wilcox had been filling aircraft like that for years, he had sbsorbed so much avgas he was a bit like Gouli's bucket of petrol, I used to stand a long way away when he lit his habitual roll-up..............
SND
I read it in the flying club having just filled a Rallye from two large plastic drums with no earthing kit and wearing a trendy nylon jacket. Our CFI Derek Wilcox had been filling aircraft like that for years, he had sbsorbed so much avgas he was a bit like Gouli's bucket of petrol, I used to stand a long way away when he lit his habitual roll-up..............
SND
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As the owner of small boat on the Thames with an outboard filling fuel tanks is a common thing to do but in the last 5 years 3 accidents have happen locally two when filling a tank and the third a leaking connector. One fire burnt the boat plus one each side and the owner filling the tank. The second very badly burnt the owner & boat. On the third it was in a lock and exploded on start up, spark from starter motor it nearly took 12 other boats with it.
The law states only 5lt plastic & 10lt metal cans can be filled in a fuel station and 30lt detachable fuel tanks that have snap on fuel lines. These can be metal or plastic and are not designed for pouring. Most places don't know about the 30lr fuel tank regulations. So legally difficult to buy sufficient fuel for a boat or aircraft. I always hid my 30lt tank behind the car so it looks like I am filling the car, to late to stop me when full.
From an anti static point conductive material are best, charges can be dissipated and drained to earth or bonded to the airframe to equalises voltages so no current flow or sparks when pouring the fuel into the tank. I think the old WW11 German jerry can design is the best for carrying fuel, if you can get them filled. Don't try Sainsburys, they stick to the rules. There is also regulations on how much fuel can be carried in a vehicle and how much can be stored at home not policed very well but may invalid insurances if exceeded.
We all carry static charges on our clothes and hair, generally just a few hundred but on some clothes it can be as high as 10,000 thousand volts which can cause a 1/2.5 inch/cm spark, so care is needed with plastic and clothing when handling petrol. Accidents do happen but not often but the consequences are very high. Petrol has 10 times the explosive power per lb than TNT so 150lbs/25 us gals is 1500lb bomb equivalent.
Oh one last thing petrol can cause cancer and gives a strong burning feel when splashed on skin and don't get it in your eyes, wash off as quick as possible or will spoil your day.
The law states only 5lt plastic & 10lt metal cans can be filled in a fuel station and 30lt detachable fuel tanks that have snap on fuel lines. These can be metal or plastic and are not designed for pouring. Most places don't know about the 30lr fuel tank regulations. So legally difficult to buy sufficient fuel for a boat or aircraft. I always hid my 30lt tank behind the car so it looks like I am filling the car, to late to stop me when full.
From an anti static point conductive material are best, charges can be dissipated and drained to earth or bonded to the airframe to equalises voltages so no current flow or sparks when pouring the fuel into the tank. I think the old WW11 German jerry can design is the best for carrying fuel, if you can get them filled. Don't try Sainsburys, they stick to the rules. There is also regulations on how much fuel can be carried in a vehicle and how much can be stored at home not policed very well but may invalid insurances if exceeded.
We all carry static charges on our clothes and hair, generally just a few hundred but on some clothes it can be as high as 10,000 thousand volts which can cause a 1/2.5 inch/cm spark, so care is needed with plastic and clothing when handling petrol. Accidents do happen but not often but the consequences are very high. Petrol has 10 times the explosive power per lb than TNT so 150lbs/25 us gals is 1500lb bomb equivalent.
Oh one last thing petrol can cause cancer and gives a strong burning feel when splashed on skin and don't get it in your eyes, wash off as quick as possible or will spoil your day.
Avoid imitations
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Problem with boats of course is that petrol vapour is heavier than air, so it accumulates in the bilges rather than flowing away. A Diesel engine is safer in that respect.
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You can fill jerrycans up to 20L maximum size at Australian service (gas) stations - but they must be sitting on the pavement, not in any part of a vehicle, that is off the ground.
This is specific fuel company instructions, and if the station operator sees you filling a jerrycan in a vehicle (via the CCTV), they will shut off your pump and advise you over the forecourt loudspeaker, to remove the jerrycan from the vehicle and place it on the ground before they will turn the pump back on.
This technique is no doubt also in place, to prevent fuel spills creating a vapour-laden vehicle, which is an additional hazard to any potential static spark.
This is specific fuel company instructions, and if the station operator sees you filling a jerrycan in a vehicle (via the CCTV), they will shut off your pump and advise you over the forecourt loudspeaker, to remove the jerrycan from the vehicle and place it on the ground before they will turn the pump back on.
This technique is no doubt also in place, to prevent fuel spills creating a vapour-laden vehicle, which is an additional hazard to any potential static spark.
As long as we are in the EU, we can carry a large (201L??) volume of petrol, provided it is for our own use, and in approved containers. There is a UK restriction if it is for your car, but not your plane/boat/etc.
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The US Military (maybe the UK too) now use 20l Scepter Military Fuel cans which are plastic (google "scepter mfc").
Also, several marine stockists sell Scepter 20l and 25l civilian plastic fuel cans (as do Amazon.co.uk - not third party seller)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/h7b/Scept...rry/B0123ZPVAS
Amazon normally check whether it is legal in the Country they are selling, especially as it is sold by Amazon themselves.
Is the plastic these are made from some kind of anti static plastic?
I was thinking of buying two of the 25 litre ones from Amazon, that way filling 20 litres leaves enough room to pour without spilling like you would do if full to the brim and you tilted it.
Also, several marine stockists sell Scepter 20l and 25l civilian plastic fuel cans (as do Amazon.co.uk - not third party seller)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/h7b/Scept...rry/B0123ZPVAS
Amazon normally check whether it is legal in the Country they are selling, especially as it is sold by Amazon themselves.
Is the plastic these are made from some kind of anti static plastic?
I was thinking of buying two of the 25 litre ones from Amazon, that way filling 20 litres leaves enough room to pour without spilling like you would do if full to the brim and you tilted it.
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ou can fill jerrycans up to 20L maximum size at Australian service (gas) stations - but they must be sitting on the pavement, not in any part of a vehicle, that is off the ground.
This is specific fuel company instructions, and if the station operator sees you filling a jerrycan in a vehicle (via the CCTV), they will shut off your pump and advise you over the forecourt loudspeaker, to remove the jerrycan from the vehicle and place it on the ground before they will turn the pump back on.
This technique is no doubt also in place, to prevent fuel spills creating a vapour-laden vehicle, which is an additional hazard to any potential static spark.
This is specific fuel company instructions, and if the station operator sees you filling a jerrycan in a vehicle (via the CCTV), they will shut off your pump and advise you over the forecourt loudspeaker, to remove the jerrycan from the vehicle and place it on the ground before they will turn the pump back on.
This technique is no doubt also in place, to prevent fuel spills creating a vapour-laden vehicle, which is an additional hazard to any potential static spark.
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Avgas to light a bonfire?!!!
Took a lot of work to gather enough sticks, logs, trash, etc, to build a nice bonfire for the women at the Husbands Bosworth European Women's Championships a few years ago. All part of the traditional celebrations.
I took it on myself to get the fuel together and arrange it nicely while most pilots were happily drinking in the bar after the days flying. The tug pilot had brought me a container of avgas to use for lighting the bonfire.
He was horrified when I had poured a suitable quantity of avgas over the structure and was about to toss a match on the pile. No no NO! He said THAT would be dangerous! He took the fuel container and carefully laid a trail of avgas from the pile of sticks, logs, etc to a safe distance. "Now, you just drop the match at the end of the trail, and it will be OK...."
It was. Actually it was quite impressive. He dropped the match for me, I was getting nervous by now. The flame went up the trail of avgas through the grass...with incredible speed! The ENTIRE bonfire went up with a WOOF! The drinkers in the bar didn't even have a chance to watch it go, the whole thing burned up so fast.
Avgas for starting a fire? just imagine if that happened in the wrong place.
I took it on myself to get the fuel together and arrange it nicely while most pilots were happily drinking in the bar after the days flying. The tug pilot had brought me a container of avgas to use for lighting the bonfire.
He was horrified when I had poured a suitable quantity of avgas over the structure and was about to toss a match on the pile. No no NO! He said THAT would be dangerous! He took the fuel container and carefully laid a trail of avgas from the pile of sticks, logs, etc to a safe distance. "Now, you just drop the match at the end of the trail, and it will be OK...."
It was. Actually it was quite impressive. He dropped the match for me, I was getting nervous by now. The flame went up the trail of avgas through the grass...with incredible speed! The ENTIRE bonfire went up with a WOOF! The drinkers in the bar didn't even have a chance to watch it go, the whole thing burned up so fast.
Avgas for starting a fire? just imagine if that happened in the wrong place.
Moderator
If you must use petroleum fuel for starting a fire, use a 50/50 mixture of gasoline and diesel, let it soak in well before igniting, and use a "fuse", as described by Mary.
To to topic at hand, electricity will flow between objects of different electrical potential. That potential may be caused by many things, including arms rustling in nylon jackets. Electricity will follow the path of least resistance. An air gap has about the most resistance of any common path. So, the electricity which may have to flow will follow any path before jumping a gap through the air (= a spark).
A plastic funnel is a less good conductor than air, or a stream of liquid, but it's better than air. So if the electrical potential of the gasoline container can be maintained with any path other than an air gap to the fuel tank, the potential will not build up, and suddenly jump an air gap, causing a spark, which is an ignition source.
Grounding/earthing everything is great, if you can. But more importantly, bond the source to the tank while transferring gasoline between them. Touching a plastic funnel to both the plastic jerry can, and the aircraft is doing that. Not perfect, but better than nothing.
When you taxi up to the land based fuel pump, the aircraft may still be holding a static charge (electrical potential) from the flight, which does not dissipate quickly through the tires to the ground. Thus when you connect the fuel pump bonding wire to the airframe, you just equalized the electrical potential of aeroplane to ground, and the fueling hose has a bonding wire in it too. Yes, you "grounded" the aeroplane, but more importantly, you bonded the fuel tank to the fuel source.
It is for this same reason that it is very unsafe to fill fuel cans which are in the back of a vehicle or trailer, as they are not bonded to the ground, as the fuel pump is. The first approach of the fuel nozzle to the unbonded fuel can could cause a spark (equalizing the differing electrical potentials), and your empty fuel can contains the most sensitive "fuel" of all, which is gasoline vapour.
"Jerry canning" fuel is my very last choice for fueling my plane, but yes, I have done it, with great caution.
To to topic at hand, electricity will flow between objects of different electrical potential. That potential may be caused by many things, including arms rustling in nylon jackets. Electricity will follow the path of least resistance. An air gap has about the most resistance of any common path. So, the electricity which may have to flow will follow any path before jumping a gap through the air (= a spark).
A plastic funnel is a less good conductor than air, or a stream of liquid, but it's better than air. So if the electrical potential of the gasoline container can be maintained with any path other than an air gap to the fuel tank, the potential will not build up, and suddenly jump an air gap, causing a spark, which is an ignition source.
Grounding/earthing everything is great, if you can. But more importantly, bond the source to the tank while transferring gasoline between them. Touching a plastic funnel to both the plastic jerry can, and the aircraft is doing that. Not perfect, but better than nothing.
When you taxi up to the land based fuel pump, the aircraft may still be holding a static charge (electrical potential) from the flight, which does not dissipate quickly through the tires to the ground. Thus when you connect the fuel pump bonding wire to the airframe, you just equalized the electrical potential of aeroplane to ground, and the fueling hose has a bonding wire in it too. Yes, you "grounded" the aeroplane, but more importantly, you bonded the fuel tank to the fuel source.
It is for this same reason that it is very unsafe to fill fuel cans which are in the back of a vehicle or trailer, as they are not bonded to the ground, as the fuel pump is. The first approach of the fuel nozzle to the unbonded fuel can could cause a spark (equalizing the differing electrical potentials), and your empty fuel can contains the most sensitive "fuel" of all, which is gasoline vapour.
"Jerry canning" fuel is my very last choice for fueling my plane, but yes, I have done it, with great caution.
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I have little choice than to Jerry can my aircraft and I've always used steel cans and a plastic funnel, an earthing wire to the exhaust and spiked into the ground.
Climb the stepladder, open can, lean on the aircraft, can in contact with me and the funnel before pouring.
I also will not use a can that hasn't been standing on the grass or concrete for at least twenty minutes since being dragged out of the car, to dissipate the static.
I built a pumping system from copper tube, plastic tube with a ball valve tap. This is sealed into the can with the cap and has two tyre valves in the cap. One for the foot pump the other with no valve in it but a valve cap to hold/release the pressure.
This works very well, saves lifting cans, but someone once mentioned that the small diameter pipe causes higher speed of delivery and can create static. So now I worry about that!
Being a deserted airfield most of the time I get a bit paranoid with this and usually consider my escape route dive if it all goes belly up. Ten years, so far so good.
Climb the stepladder, open can, lean on the aircraft, can in contact with me and the funnel before pouring.
I also will not use a can that hasn't been standing on the grass or concrete for at least twenty minutes since being dragged out of the car, to dissipate the static.
I built a pumping system from copper tube, plastic tube with a ball valve tap. This is sealed into the can with the cap and has two tyre valves in the cap. One for the foot pump the other with no valve in it but a valve cap to hold/release the pressure.
This works very well, saves lifting cans, but someone once mentioned that the small diameter pipe causes higher speed of delivery and can create static. So now I worry about that!
Being a deserted airfield most of the time I get a bit paranoid with this and usually consider my escape route dive if it all goes belly up. Ten years, so far so good.
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Lighting fires.....yes...... Some years ago I cleared a few trees from the bottom of my garden. It was nearly Guy Fawke's Night, so I arranged a mighty bonfire and invited the neighbours. Had some old paraffin left over from parts cleaning, so soused that over the bonfire and lit it. Away it went, nicely but not uncontrolled, and we had a good evening making bangs and firing rockets and cooking sausages.
The next day most of the treestuff had been consumed...but there were a couple of obstinate treestumps; more conflagration called for.
Inspected the paraffin supply; all gone.
Hmmm. Need something suitable....
Then my eyes lit upon the 5 litre can with 2 star petrol in it (yes,it was that long ago...!) This I had used to fuel the midget JCB I had used to get the stumps out and the ground level. 2Star ought to burn the stumps....
So I poured the petrol on to the stumps....about 2/3 gallon, I suppose. Then went in search of ignition.
Came back in a few minutes with a box of matches; blithely lit one and threw it onto the petrol soaked treestumps....which is when I discovered my error!
During my absence, the petrol vapour had spread all over the garden....and it went up with a mighty WHOOOMPH, leaving me up to my gonads in flame......so I did a "Tom and Jerry", leapt into the air and ran along the tops of the flames...(!)
At least, that's what it felt like....fortunately the vapour burnt very quckly and the flames had dissipated almost before I landed from my leap. The stumps were "going nicely" to use Fire Brigade parlance, and no harm done. That was only 2Star; Avgas must be even more impressive.
Once at Linton on Ouse we were looking for stuff to light barbecues with, and ended up draining some of HM the Q's finest Avtur out of a bowser and using that; it worked well and was far less exciting.....
The next day most of the treestuff had been consumed...but there were a couple of obstinate treestumps; more conflagration called for.
Inspected the paraffin supply; all gone.
Hmmm. Need something suitable....
Then my eyes lit upon the 5 litre can with 2 star petrol in it (yes,it was that long ago...!) This I had used to fuel the midget JCB I had used to get the stumps out and the ground level. 2Star ought to burn the stumps....
So I poured the petrol on to the stumps....about 2/3 gallon, I suppose. Then went in search of ignition.
Came back in a few minutes with a box of matches; blithely lit one and threw it onto the petrol soaked treestumps....which is when I discovered my error!
During my absence, the petrol vapour had spread all over the garden....and it went up with a mighty WHOOOMPH, leaving me up to my gonads in flame......so I did a "Tom and Jerry", leapt into the air and ran along the tops of the flames...(!)
At least, that's what it felt like....fortunately the vapour burnt very quckly and the flames had dissipated almost before I landed from my leap. The stumps were "going nicely" to use Fire Brigade parlance, and no harm done. That was only 2Star; Avgas must be even more impressive.
Once at Linton on Ouse we were looking for stuff to light barbecues with, and ended up draining some of HM the Q's finest Avtur out of a bowser and using that; it worked well and was far less exciting.....
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Yes petrol is dangerous stuff I think with everyone using self service refuelling people don't think it is. Sadly a brother in law of my sister in law used some petrol to get an already light barbeque going better by pouring some petrol on it with, as we know the expected result. Very badly burnt was touch and go that was over a year ago but a month ago he committed suicide even sadder he's wife died of cancer 2 years ago so leaves 4 children under 12 orphans.
So take care with the stuff, think static and flame sources, as pointed out the vapour flows in warm weather considerable distances. Metal fuel cans are better plastic fuel tanks don't seem to be a problem as not poured from.
So think safe consider you are handing a bomb so don't hit it with a hammer.
So take care with the stuff, think static and flame sources, as pointed out the vapour flows in warm weather considerable distances. Metal fuel cans are better plastic fuel tanks don't seem to be a problem as not poured from.
So think safe consider you are handing a bomb so don't hit it with a hammer.