PPRuNe Forums

Go Back   PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Private Flying
Forgotten your Username/Password?

Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 23rd Dec 2012, 19:24   #81 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Oxfordshire
Posts: 549
Surely the easiest way to settle this is for someone in-the-know to provide (or not) a list of prosecutions for GA pilots letting passengers have a go?

Have there been any specifically for this? If not, there can't be an issue, given the large number of times it happens openly.
Blues&twos is offline   Reply
Old 23rd Dec 2012, 20:36   #82 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,720
Since it's entirely legal in UK, there are are no such prosecutions here. Best not to complicate what is a very straightforward situation.
Shaggy Sheep Driver is online now   Reply
Old 23rd Dec 2012, 22:20   #83 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Oxfordshire
Posts: 549
As I suspected. Thanks.
Blues&twos is offline   Reply
Old 24th Dec 2012, 11:29   #84 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland
Age: 74
Posts: 1,043
Is the "Mile High Club" an illegal organisation? Comments?
Crash one is offline   Reply
Old 24th Dec 2012, 11:36   #85 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 10nm E grice when it's raining
Posts: 959
Quote:
Is the "Mile High Club" an illegal organisation? Comments?
It's against nature in an Emeraude

D.O.
dont overfil is offline   Reply
Old 24th Dec 2012, 11:42   #86 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland
Age: 74
Posts: 1,043
Quote:
It's against nature in an Emeraude
I'll need to give that some engineering thought.
Austin Frog eye Sprite door pull straps & high heels spring to mind

Last edited by Crash one; 24th Dec 2012 at 11:52.
Crash one is offline   Reply
Old 24th Dec 2012, 12:42   #87 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: SE England
Posts: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by airpolice
I have NEVER allowed a non pilot to handle the controls, it's taken two years to teach my wife to work the transponder and GNS450.

I would like to allow certain pax, who have some experience, to handle the controls under benign circumstances but there's no point in that unless they can tell people they did it.... which will get me strung up...or will it?
Why have you NEVER allowed anyone to? Contrary to what a lot of pilots would like to believe, it's not particularly hard to control an aeroplane, especially in day VMC. Even if you do (horror of horrors) allow someone to fly, who are these bogeymen that are waiting to string you up?

Also - two years to learn how to work a transponder?!

I could probably train my dog to do it in that timescale.
FC80 is offline   Reply
Old 24th Dec 2012, 13:43   #88 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 10nm E grice when it's raining
Posts: 959
What a shame that so many have not experienced the satisfaction of seeing someone who has never flown before handle the controls and feel the aircraft respond. Seeing the mile wide smile on their face when they realise it was them flying.

Some are nervous at first but it only takes a few minutes with some very basic instruction to see them relax. Others, often the kids, are total naturals and can do level turns to plus or minus 50ft right from the start.

Thats what started me flying. There may have been a twenty year gap but the seed was planted. I'll never forgive him. I might have been well off by now

D.O.
dont overfil is offline   Reply
Old 24th Dec 2012, 16:30   #89 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland
Age: 74
Posts: 1,043
Last year at the fly in, speaking to one of the firemen he asked "Any chance of going up?" No problem, let me finish my coffee, " Shit! I didn't think you would say that, I've never flown in anything in my life, the wife wants to go to Spain & I'm terrified".
Upshot, he enjoyed every minute, couldn't believe he had actually done it, filmed himself over half of East Fife, tried the controls, asked what would happen if the engine stopped, we did a PFL towards Crail til he could understand we would make it. First time, in a 53 yr old taildragger off a grass strip. The smile said it all.
Crash one is offline   Reply
Old 24th Dec 2012, 18:21   #90 (permalink)

sua cuique voluptas
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 136
(Peers carefully around the corner........he's really gone this time? Oh good!).

Didn't want to upset him by telling him that as a PPL(B) holder (but not an instructor) not only it is legal for me to allow my pax on the burners but also if they are in training for them to book the hours towards their totals needed for their GFT and annotate their logbook to boot.

When EASA licences replace out CAA ones in 2015, of course, this training privilege will be removed, but think how much safer it will be after the zero incidents caused by such behaviour over the last 40 years....

Fly safe and enjoy it,

Ripline
Ripline is online now   Reply
Old 25th Dec 2012, 16:33   #91 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Oxfordshire
Posts: 549
Well, if it wasn't for "having a go" I probably would never have flown anything. Most thrilling thing I've ever done was flying my first simple aeros in a Pitts. Not quite as scary as bungee jumping, but I only did one of those.

Blues&twos is offline   Reply
Old 25th Dec 2012, 17:24   #92 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,720
Yeah, but all you have to do when bungee jumping is switch off your brain, trust the organisers, and leap. In aeros, you need to apply your brain, do it yourself, and get it right or it'll end in tears!

Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 25th Dec 2012 at 18:16.
Shaggy Sheep Driver is online now   Reply
Old 25th Dec 2012, 19:55   #93 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Oxfordshire
Posts: 549
Ha ha! Yes...I remember messing up one manoeuvre, and fully expected my pal in the back seat (instructor) to say "My control". What he actually said as we went inverted was "What you gonna do about that, then?"

Like you said (partly), apply brain, work it out, fly the plane. Getting it as technically right as it was possible for me to do was half the fun and challenge.

I hasten to add I had flown with him many times, and we were well over two mistakes high.

Last edited by Blues&twos; 25th Dec 2012 at 19:56.
Blues&twos is offline   Reply
Old 25th Dec 2012, 20:35   #94 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 53
Posts: 2,838
"work it out for yourself" is an excellent thing to say to another pilot, when you know that things are still well within your capability to recover, so you don't need to - yet. I have done this many times.

The parallel for a non pilot, is "you're doing fine, just a little more...". I have had non pilots land the plane quite nicely a few times while coaching them through. They were neatly on the surface before they realized that they should be scared, 'cause they are about to land. This works much better on a frozen lake, with miles of landing surface in all directions though, and with me minding the throttle to actually control the rate of sink!

I've never had a problem with this.

My only problem ever was with a passenger to whom I had never intended to give control. He was mentally disadvantaged, and decided to take control, with great force. It was a sudden go around, with near aerobatics to climb away. I was quite concerned about damaging the flight control mechanism, while over powering him. It worked out okay, though this is why there are only dual controls in either of my planes, when I actually intend that the other person might fly.
Pilot DAR is offline   Reply
Old 25th Dec 2012, 22:22   #95 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,432
Quote:
this is why there are only dual controls in either of my planes, when I actually intend that the other person might fly.
Obviously you are more qualified than most of us to install and remove the controls, being a DAR yourself. But for the rest of us:

- How do schools, clubs, syndicates and groups regard the action of removing the controls from the RHS if you are flying with a passenger you don't quite trust?
- What is the legal perspective on this? Are you legally allowed to do so as a pilot, or only, for instance, if the procedures are listed in the POH and are thus designed to be executed by the pilot?
- And practically speaking, what can I expect? Of course it would depend on the aircraft, but would there be a quick release or some serious bolt and spanner work involved?

I have never ever seen the RHS controls removed from an aircraft, so just curious.
BackPacker is offline   Reply
Old 26th Dec 2012, 00:05   #96 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 53
Posts: 2,838
Backpacker,

Transport Canada "Elementary Work" says that the pilot may (without requiring a mechanic):

(20) removal and replacement of co-pilot control levers, wheels, pedals and pedal guard plates that are designed for rapid removal and replacement, on other than transport category aircraft;

It is convenient for me that both my aircraft are so arranged, as many aircraft are not (for example Cessna182 and 206, which are darn near impossible to remove either controls).

It's worth a look through your national regulations to understand pilot privileges. It is "elementary work": which allows pilots to do other simple tasks, like changing oil and spark plugs to mention just a few.
Pilot DAR is offline   Reply
Old 26th Dec 2012, 09:30   #97 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,432
Quote:
(20) removal and replacement of co-pilot control levers, wheels, pedals and pedal guard plates that are designed for rapid removal and replacement, on other than transport category aircraft;
Yeah, I thought as much. And I would assume the same would be true in other countries.

Further to this, does anybody have a list of the more common GA aircraft types and models where this is the case?

All I know is that the GA-8 Gippsland Airvan has a comment in it that no passenger should be allowed in the RHS unless the controls are removed, but there are no instructions in the POH how to remove the controls, and I don't remember seeing any quick-releases either. For common types like the PA28, C172, DR400 I don't think quick removal is an option either.
BackPacker is offline   Reply
Old 26th Dec 2012, 10:02   #98 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 701
Quote:
the EAA had a program called Young Eagles, it may still be running for all I know,
It certainly is still running. I read in various aviation publications about events taking place quite often. The EAA membership continues to support this program in a substantial manner.

Now as to the original question posed as it applies within the USA:

There is no rule or law in the US preventing a passenger from handling or otherwise operating the controls of any aircraft during a private flight. They are not a required crewmember and therefore not exercising any airman privileges and unless they hold a pilot certificate they are not a pilot. It is the responsibility of the pilot in command of the flight to conduct it in a safe manner and entirely within their discretion to determine who shall be allowed to manipulate the flight controls.

Exceptions:

Air carriers operating under parts 121 and 135 are expressly forbidden to allow a passenger to manipulate flight controls.

"Child pilots" on "record setting" flights:

A number of years ago there was a somewhat popular trend involving children too young to hold a student pilot certificate taking credit for record setting flights. They would fly with instructors or other qualified PICs with the intent of claiming records or seeking publicity for their "deeds". Personally I thought at the time that this phenomenon was simply a laughable by-product of well-to-do parents engaging in trendy over-indulgence of their little ones.

Laughable but relatively harmless it seemed to me at the time. Then this little girl and her instructor on one of these "record flights" were killed when they crashed shortly after taking off in the vicinity of a thunderstorm from a high elevation airport in a Cessna Cardinal. Obviously the instructor was PIC, but the national furor over the child's death eventually resulted in a public law being voted in by Congress prohibiting such "child pilot record flights". So while it's still okay to let kids manipulate the controls, it's illegal to let them do it in pursuit of a record. Funny old world...
westhawk is online now   Reply
Old 26th Dec 2012, 21:26   #99 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 1,085
Backpacker, me old china, back on page two you mentioned letting your have-a-go pax preform a loop....please don't!

In fact, I have upset some posters by insisting it is way out of order to frighten first time pax with aeros of any sort. I did myself, a while back, thinking that the chap in the front of my glider was highly qualified to enjoy the experience of a spin and recovery (I am a qualified instructor, or was at the time...). During our flight he had mentioned that down there at Kineton ordinance depot was his place of work, and he confessed he was a bomb disposal expert....could anyone be braver than that, I thought, and asked him (we had done some steep turns) if he would like to see a spin (for the purpose of loosing some altitude, had to get the glider back in half an hour for the next victim). O yes, he said, so we spun, and he never came back.

It is my conviction that the thrill of flying and having a go is quite enough for the first time. It is my further conviction that it is MANDATORY to talk your life partner into having a go, and in fact having a fair amount of a go, even if you are only a moderately experienced private pilot, and that includes use of the radio, because if you go unserviceable, she could save her life and yours...
mary meagher is online now   Reply
Old 26th Dec 2012, 21:54   #100 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Oxfordshire
Posts: 549
I would say it is entirely dependent on the type of people of both tbe passenger and pilot. I have never had a problem with aeros, and would have been thrilled to have had the experience on my first flight.

Some people never fly at all and never want to, and there are all the others in between. Good judgement is required rather than a blanket rule.
Blues&twos is offline   Reply
Reply
 
 
 


Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 21:35.


vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network