Microlight Crash in Scotland - 2 Fatalities
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Sorry, I incorrectly used the term "chat frequency" when I should have said microlight frequency.
However I don't see the point of using it outside the environment of an exclusively microlight field. Is there really such a thing? What is wrong with safetycom?
Edited to add.. Ferryair, it happened on Saturday.
VFR flightplans are a waste of time for this kind of trip.
D.O.
However I don't see the point of using it outside the environment of an exclusively microlight field. Is there really such a thing? What is wrong with safetycom?
Edited to add.. Ferryair, it happened on Saturday.
VFR flightplans are a waste of time for this kind of trip.
D.O.
Last edited by dont overfil; 13th May 2012 at 15:21.
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xrayalpha I don't have a problem with microlights at all unless they cut me up on finals as they are apt to do and start bleeting but you were abusing finals if you have words with them.
My comments were more on the ethos of the instructors when they are teaching.
When we teach fixed wing nav ex's talking to scottish is part and parcel of the exercise along with a practise pan at some point.
I can fully understand down south why folk might not want to talk to London info who are saturated much of the time on nice days and to be honest you have plenty of alternatives from LARS units etc.
But come on Scottish info!!
Never heard a cross word out of them yet.
Always make things easy for students and don't put them under pressure.
No other agencys which would give you a better service (ie radar etc)
If you start your students talking to them from the start they will be comfy always using them.
Like it or not swopiv microlights not talking to scottish is a problem for the rest of us. The more people use the service the better picture all of us have of what traffic is going to effect us. And its all very well saying "but I listen in what more do you want". Most arn't like yourself speaking to info.
And its a particular problem around that perth area you can be told nothing known affect and it turns out there are 10 plus microlights bimbling around all of them.
Coming away from this accident and the fact hillwalkers found them. If scottish knows what they are doing and over due action is called either by other aircraft getting there or by friends and family calling the police at least the MRT have got a smaller search area to concentrate on. No it proberly wouldn't affect the out come of any incident. But at least your not putting the MRT at risk searching at night through vast tracks of land to try and find out if they are alive. Not to mention the cost of rescue helicopters etc.
Another fact which people might like to take into consideration is the state of your remains for your family. The longer you are out there the more scavengers will cut down the amount of bio mass for the coffin and more than likey your loved ones won't be seeing you again because your tongue,lips and eyes are the choice bits, just look at any sheep carcasses in the hills. So the less time until the MRT find you the less stress your family comes under never mind having to have a sealed lid on your coffin.
As xrayalpha rightly says microlighting is become more and more popular and the amount of it means that if it doesn't join in with the rest of us it causes a major safety risk.
I expect in the not so distant future there will be more microlight movements in the scottish FIR than spam cans. Habits need to be changed.
O and instead of reporting back to the group just everyone stay on scottish and one person book in as a formation. At least the the DF trickery can work if someone sends out a mayday if its fitted on scottish info freq (is it FBW?)
And to add i have never filed a VFR plan plan in my puff waste of time. But I do give info a shout if I am low enough and keep them updated if I change my routing.
Apart from anything else the more we use the service the more ammuntion the service has if the bean counters start talking about reducing it with an excuse due to lack of use.
My comments were more on the ethos of the instructors when they are teaching.
When we teach fixed wing nav ex's talking to scottish is part and parcel of the exercise along with a practise pan at some point.
I can fully understand down south why folk might not want to talk to London info who are saturated much of the time on nice days and to be honest you have plenty of alternatives from LARS units etc.
But come on Scottish info!!
Never heard a cross word out of them yet.
Always make things easy for students and don't put them under pressure.
No other agencys which would give you a better service (ie radar etc)
If you start your students talking to them from the start they will be comfy always using them.
Like it or not swopiv microlights not talking to scottish is a problem for the rest of us. The more people use the service the better picture all of us have of what traffic is going to effect us. And its all very well saying "but I listen in what more do you want". Most arn't like yourself speaking to info.
And its a particular problem around that perth area you can be told nothing known affect and it turns out there are 10 plus microlights bimbling around all of them.
Flying in the local area is a bit different, and for trips round the borders, most will just stay on microlight frequency.
Another fact which people might like to take into consideration is the state of your remains for your family. The longer you are out there the more scavengers will cut down the amount of bio mass for the coffin and more than likey your loved ones won't be seeing you again because your tongue,lips and eyes are the choice bits, just look at any sheep carcasses in the hills. So the less time until the MRT find you the less stress your family comes under never mind having to have a sealed lid on your coffin.
As xrayalpha rightly says microlighting is become more and more popular and the amount of it means that if it doesn't join in with the rest of us it causes a major safety risk.
I expect in the not so distant future there will be more microlight movements in the scottish FIR than spam cans. Habits need to be changed.
O and instead of reporting back to the group just everyone stay on scottish and one person book in as a formation. At least the the DF trickery can work if someone sends out a mayday if its fitted on scottish info freq (is it FBW?)
And to add i have never filed a VFR plan plan in my puff waste of time. But I do give info a shout if I am low enough and keep them updated if I change my routing.
Apart from anything else the more we use the service the more ammuntion the service has if the bean counters start talking about reducing it with an excuse due to lack of use.
Last edited by mad_jock; 13th May 2012 at 15:28.
@ d.o.:And what then is "safetycom" and when and why should one use it?
As I understand the UK situation, I tend to agree with Crash One: for any given place in airspace, there ought to be one and exactly one frequency that one can talk to, and that one should always be listening to. If inside controlled airspace: the controlling authority - be it tower or approach or whatever. Outside controlled airspace: the relevant "information" - except in or when approaching the traffic zone of a non-controlled aerodrome.
Why complicate matters?
As I understand the UK situation, I tend to agree with Crash One: for any given place in airspace, there ought to be one and exactly one frequency that one can talk to, and that one should always be listening to. If inside controlled airspace: the controlling authority - be it tower or approach or whatever. Outside controlled airspace: the relevant "information" - except in or when approaching the traffic zone of a non-controlled aerodrome.
Why complicate matters?
Last edited by Jan Olieslagers; 13th May 2012 at 15:25.
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Safetycom was supposed to be similar to Unicom in the USA. It's communication for airfields without a dedicated frequency.
Then some idiot decided to rule that it was only air to air and must not be used by anyone on the ground. Yes it is just the same idea as the microlight frequency.
If you want a frequency used from the ground Ofcom want a wad of cash from you and you must be licenced to use it. It's a shambles which has more than a little to do with empire building and money.
D.O.
Then some idiot decided to rule that it was only air to air and must not be used by anyone on the ground. Yes it is just the same idea as the microlight frequency.
If you want a frequency used from the ground Ofcom want a wad of cash from you and you must be licenced to use it. It's a shambles which has more than a little to do with empire building and money.
D.O.
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Its meant to be for traffic around an airfield not for a group to use where ever they like on cross country's Gliders also have there own frequency for gliding sites which again is used as "there frequency"
There is also a myth out there that if you use the gliding and the microlight frequency you don't need a RT license.
The fact of the matter is with students, a big problem is they are scared to use the radio and speak on it. They think that who ever they are talking to is going to record and report them for ****e RT. When the worst thing that going to happen is that if a fellow student hears them they might take the piss. Give them to scottish to speak to honestly. They all have a knack of calming the student/insecure pilot down and getting the required info out of them without injecting a terminal fear of talking on the radio.
Maybe its because the instructors arn't that comfy speaking on the RT and don't want to sound like a chump in front of the students. So they tell the students not to talk if they can help it as well.
Well to be honest all fixed wing instructors are the same with only 200 hours under there belts. Give it a week or two talking to everyone and you will forget you were ever stressed about it.
There is also a myth out there that if you use the gliding and the microlight frequency you don't need a RT license.
The fact of the matter is with students, a big problem is they are scared to use the radio and speak on it. They think that who ever they are talking to is going to record and report them for ****e RT. When the worst thing that going to happen is that if a fellow student hears them they might take the piss. Give them to scottish to speak to honestly. They all have a knack of calming the student/insecure pilot down and getting the required info out of them without injecting a terminal fear of talking on the radio.
Maybe its because the instructors arn't that comfy speaking on the RT and don't want to sound like a chump in front of the students. So they tell the students not to talk if they can help it as well.
Well to be honest all fixed wing instructors are the same with only 200 hours under there belts. Give it a week or two talking to everyone and you will forget you were ever stressed about it.
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I don't know what the plan was that these guys had. But there is no way they could raise Scottish unless they were at at least 5000ft in that area. Anything less and it is pretty spotty. And that is the case all the way until you get pretty near the coast on the other side. There are areas where it works at something around the height of the tops plus 1000 and there are areas it doesn't.
So fishbang and his colleagues are often trying to talk to people who cannot hear or need a relay - and within those constraints they do a very good job.
But at the endof the day this is very rugged countryside and you are responsible for what happens. I love madjock worrying about the state of my remains for the next of kin - that frankly is so far down my list of priorities I would never have thought of it!
Yesterday I went flying on a rough turbulent day. I did so in the full knowledge that I was going to remote and rugged places where if something happened I needed to pull off a very good forced landing and faced at best a very challenging walk. It sort of comes with the terriority - and frankly I love it. The scenery and freedom draws me and I enjoy it. Probably very much like the two unfortunate aviators.
Radio? it has its uses. Our Basic service generally in the UK is completely useless. Fishbang and his mates make it worthwhile in terms of search and rescue - but I usually fly far too low to make any practical use of it.
My alternative 'risk management' is a PLB - but I need to be at least conscious after my forced landing - cos there is no way I am messing about with it, if the engine fails or the turbulence rolls me over.
Whatever happened yesterday was very unfortunate, radio would in no way have prevented it. We had a incident very recently and a lot of people are saying the radio is VITAL, well for our incident it was being used - but it did not stop it occuring! It might even have contributed......
Flying in these areas can be dangerous. On an A to B flight when I'm just looking to 'get there' Scottish offer a good service. Yesterday they would not have heard me at all apart from when I chased some wave up to 6000.
Radio can be useful - but the way it is presently 'organised' in the UK seems designed to minimise that potential - and that creates a problem. Its main use would be traffic information - now of course explicitly banned under a basic service and to the south impossible to oftain when you need it.
But the bottom line is that whatever happened yesterday had nothing to do with radio. I suspect weather - but it would have been challenging to force land with the turbulence and wind gradients yesterday. We'll see eventually at least some suspicion of what happened from the AAIB.
So fishbang and his colleagues are often trying to talk to people who cannot hear or need a relay - and within those constraints they do a very good job.
But at the endof the day this is very rugged countryside and you are responsible for what happens. I love madjock worrying about the state of my remains for the next of kin - that frankly is so far down my list of priorities I would never have thought of it!
Yesterday I went flying on a rough turbulent day. I did so in the full knowledge that I was going to remote and rugged places where if something happened I needed to pull off a very good forced landing and faced at best a very challenging walk. It sort of comes with the terriority - and frankly I love it. The scenery and freedom draws me and I enjoy it. Probably very much like the two unfortunate aviators.
Radio? it has its uses. Our Basic service generally in the UK is completely useless. Fishbang and his mates make it worthwhile in terms of search and rescue - but I usually fly far too low to make any practical use of it.
My alternative 'risk management' is a PLB - but I need to be at least conscious after my forced landing - cos there is no way I am messing about with it, if the engine fails or the turbulence rolls me over.
Whatever happened yesterday was very unfortunate, radio would in no way have prevented it. We had a incident very recently and a lot of people are saying the radio is VITAL, well for our incident it was being used - but it did not stop it occuring! It might even have contributed......
Flying in these areas can be dangerous. On an A to B flight when I'm just looking to 'get there' Scottish offer a good service. Yesterday they would not have heard me at all apart from when I chased some wave up to 6000.
Radio can be useful - but the way it is presently 'organised' in the UK seems designed to minimise that potential - and that creates a problem. Its main use would be traffic information - now of course explicitly banned under a basic service and to the south impossible to oftain when you need it.
But the bottom line is that whatever happened yesterday had nothing to do with radio. I suspect weather - but it would have been challenging to force land with the turbulence and wind gradients yesterday. We'll see eventually at least some suspicion of what happened from the AAIB.
it was only air to air
I must admit that, having visited the UK driving perhaps 50 times over the last 35 years, I regret seeing it become more and more like continental europe - where are the miles and yards, where are the shillings and sixpence, gone is four-star petrol - but aviationwise, it seems to remain a peculiar place to this day. On the longer term I like that very much - nothing worse than to see the whole world turning a uniform grey - on the short term it adds to my reluctance to come flying across.
But of course we are now very far from the fellow aviators that passed away - RIP and my sympathy with those that will miss them.
Last edited by Jan Olieslagers; 13th May 2012 at 16:23.
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Para 2.3 reads:
A pilot of a glider may act as a flight radiotelephony operator without holding an appropriate licence, if he/she does not communicate by radiotelephony with any Air Traffic Control Unit.
Note: An ‘appropriate licence’ in this context means a Flight Radiotelephony Operator’s Licence which may be issued as a standalone licence, or in conjunction with a flight crew licence. Further information may be found in LASORS Section B1 Flight Radio Telephony Operator’s Licence on the CAA web site at
LASORS: LASORS 2010 | Publications | About the CAA
Last edited by cats_five; 13th May 2012 at 18:02.
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Taken from BMAA Forum
Could we all remember that these are PUBLIC forums!
Please dont speculate! the AAIB investigation has just begun!
2 lives have been lost yesterday and these men were someones friends and colleagues,brothers, husbands, fathers and grandfathers.
If anyone here also posts on pprune would they please reinforce this message there as i find some of the comments inappropriate!
Thank you.
Obviously I watch all forums and have cross posted as emotions amongst the microlighters are running high on this subject.
dont overfil : I thought it was Saturday, but the Police attend microlight incident - Scottish Headlines - Milngavie Herald
Says Friday as reporting day !!!!! ( I guess their editorial datestamp is incorrect )
Could we all remember that these are PUBLIC forums!
Please dont speculate! the AAIB investigation has just begun!
2 lives have been lost yesterday and these men were someones friends and colleagues,brothers, husbands, fathers and grandfathers.
If anyone here also posts on pprune would they please reinforce this message there as i find some of the comments inappropriate!
Thank you.
Obviously I watch all forums and have cross posted as emotions amongst the microlighters are running high on this subject.
dont overfil : I thought it was Saturday, but the Police attend microlight incident - Scottish Headlines - Milngavie Herald
Says Friday as reporting day !!!!! ( I guess their editorial datestamp is incorrect )
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Well said. I picked this up this evening and frankly guys could not believe some of the stuff I was reading. 2 people have lost their lives, I was at Perth on Wednesday taliking to some micro light colleagues, some of which may well have been involved in this tragic incident. Some respect please.
Last edited by maxred; 13th May 2012 at 18:35.
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PIREP: For what it's worth I was about 10m N of Ben More at FL080 (ca. 8700ft altitude) at midday heading West to Oban over about 7/8 cloud tops around 7,500'-8,000' with about a 15kt headwind.....
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M-J, I haven't seen the new Scottish D&D cell but they certainly had DF in the old one so I can't imagine that it would be discarded.
Jan, the one frequency monitored 24hrs/day is 121.5. As I said above, I'm sure the new D&D Scottish will have it, Swanwick certainly does and both places always tell visitors that they would much prefer people to call them early than have to send someone to pick up the pieces. They do not care what terminology you use - they will happily speak to you in plain English rather than CAP 413 standard replies. Trust me, I know, I've been there and needed their help.
The D&D Service is unique to the UK and is absolutely outstanding. 
Jan, the one frequency monitored 24hrs/day is 121.5. As I said above, I'm sure the new D&D Scottish will have it, Swanwick certainly does and both places always tell visitors that they would much prefer people to call them early than have to send someone to pick up the pieces. They do not care what terminology you use - they will happily speak to you in plain English rather than CAP 413 standard replies. Trust me, I know, I've been there and needed their help.
The D&D Service is unique to the UK and is absolutely outstanding.
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IM I am grown up, bit more than you frankly. Prattling on about the whys and wherefore of taliking to Scottish, or anyone for that matter. Revelation'plenty of people go flying talking to nobody. Not mandatory in uncontrolled airspace.
Personally, I don't find it disrespectful so much as off-topic - we simply don't know whether the use of radio is relevant to the accident yet.
I've nothing against going off-topic - I'm an offender on that front fairly often. But I have wondered whether the thread could profitably be divided in two.
I've nothing against going off-topic - I'm an offender on that front fairly often. But I have wondered whether the thread could profitably be divided in two.
Last edited by abgd; 13th May 2012 at 19:11.
[[[ very moderately because I don't want to offend anyone and apparently some earlier postings, mine probably, seem to have offended some]]]
Yes, and I appreciate one should call them early rather than late. But - on a general note, and without wanting to make ANY assumption about the present sad case - there have been situations where woe came up so suddenly that no time was left for ANY radio call. Radio is only the third point - aviate - navigate - communicate, remember - so it is important that our whereabouts should be known at all times. For this purpose, OCAS an information service seems best placed.
And BTW, for us microlighters the 24/day bit is rather irrelevant, we're not supposed to fly in dark.
the one frequency monitored 24hrs/day is 121.5
And BTW, for us microlighters the 24/day bit is rather irrelevant, we're not supposed to fly in dark.
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Depends what frequency it is setup on might only be 121.5 DX
The discussion on a significant part of the scottish FIR VFR traffic not participating in the info service would maybe best spun off onto another thread.
And if they used the radio or not wouldn't have been a factor if they hit a down draft. I have had 70knts wash off in that area due to a wave down draft which equates to a sink rate of 1700ft a min in the aircraft I was flying at the time.
The discussion on a significant part of the scottish FIR VFR traffic not participating in the info service would maybe best spun off onto another thread.
And if they used the radio or not wouldn't have been a factor if they hit a down draft. I have had 70knts wash off in that area due to a wave down draft which equates to a sink rate of 1700ft a min in the aircraft I was flying at the time.
Last edited by mad_jock; 13th May 2012 at 19:23.
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Ferryair,
I followed your link to the microlight forum and noticed one of your colleagues may have some information.
If you pm me I can pass details of how to contact the AAIB person dealing with this.
Sorry, I've got to say this but if someone on the other forum cannot take safety advice from FSB without thinking it is disrespectful it is very sad. Of course they may not know who he is.
D.O.
I followed your link to the microlight forum and noticed one of your colleagues may have some information.
If you pm me I can pass details of how to contact the AAIB person dealing with this.
Sorry, I've got to say this but if someone on the other forum cannot take safety advice from FSB without thinking it is disrespectful it is very sad. Of course they may not know who he is.
D.O.
Last edited by dont overfil; 13th May 2012 at 19:45.