Light aircraft down in Dundee
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By strange coincidence the report has come out exactly one year to the day after the accident.
Glorious Twelfth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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I'm normally one of those that 'waits for the report to come out' but in this case I did pass comment early on in this thread. Enough primary evidence came straight from the horses mouth to suggest that the root cause of this accident was a serious lack of airmanship on the part of the pilot. Having read the diplomatic but still damning report I feel vindicated in all the mean thoughts I had about 'our hero'.
Even amateur aviation requires a degree of professionalism which was clearly woefully lacking in Vince. Low ability combined with a bad attitude and a complete failure to apply a serious mindset to the task of operating an aircraft meant this accident was a given. Whilst Vince no doubt still sees it as a jolly adventure I doubt very much whether he realises what a danger he posed to innocent third parties particularly those on the ground and the occupants of airliners in the airspace he bust.
Just to put the boot in further, the fact that Vince didn't fly at a constant altitude or speed at any point during the flight suggests that he's not the most talented of pilots, as does his amazing ability to avoid a number of fields potentially suitable for a forced landing in open countryside and instead shoehorn the aircraft into a treetop in a built up area.
I'm normally reasonably charitable but in this case think old Vince is a lost cause who should stay away from aircraft in future. Perhaps that decision will be made for him by the relevant authorities. I wonder how long before he returns to this thread with more delusional arrogance and self-justification.
Even amateur aviation requires a degree of professionalism which was clearly woefully lacking in Vince. Low ability combined with a bad attitude and a complete failure to apply a serious mindset to the task of operating an aircraft meant this accident was a given. Whilst Vince no doubt still sees it as a jolly adventure I doubt very much whether he realises what a danger he posed to innocent third parties particularly those on the ground and the occupants of airliners in the airspace he bust.
Just to put the boot in further, the fact that Vince didn't fly at a constant altitude or speed at any point during the flight suggests that he's not the most talented of pilots, as does his amazing ability to avoid a number of fields potentially suitable for a forced landing in open countryside and instead shoehorn the aircraft into a treetop in a built up area.
I'm normally reasonably charitable but in this case think old Vince is a lost cause who should stay away from aircraft in future. Perhaps that decision will be made for him by the relevant authorities. I wonder how long before he returns to this thread with more delusional arrogance and self-justification.
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I'm normally one of those that
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Interesting reading.
Not defending Vince by any means here but I think some should be perhaps a little less... "aggressive" with their posts/views.
It's obvious to all through reading the report what the problems and causes were here, and I will not condone those, in fact it makes for worrying reading, but let's hang back a bit. It's not up to any of us to publicly castigate the guy and act as judge, jury and executioner. The CAA will decide what happens to the pilot involved, if anything, based on the conclusions from the AAIB. If the CAA feels there is a genuine safety issue here (no comment) then they will take the necissary action. The decision will not be made by a group of mostly anonymous posters on an internet forum, but the appropriate regulatory authority, and we should respect that, as the CAA are very good at taking action on people who make our hobby/career dangerous, putting themselves and others at risk. They will not stand for it, and we should all back them up and respect whatever action they take.
I read a lot of prattish comments on PPRuNE on a regular basis. Like people who think it's OK to pick up a wing drop at the stall using aileron. Or a few weeks back when I read a comment by someone saying it's perfectly OK to fly in 3000m vis., VFR, as long as you are following a GPS. Or people who find it perfectly acceptable to attempt a turn back following an EFATO at a few hundred feet AGL. Just to quote a few examples. If these people think they know better then God help us all.
Closing thought: whilst many of us are sensible and would not get in this sort of situation, or at least we'd like to think that way, how would you feel if you were the subject of an AAIB report, with personal comments being directed at you from all angles on PPRuNE?
Time we all chilled out a little chaps.
Smithy
Not defending Vince by any means here but I think some should be perhaps a little less... "aggressive" with their posts/views.
It's obvious to all through reading the report what the problems and causes were here, and I will not condone those, in fact it makes for worrying reading, but let's hang back a bit. It's not up to any of us to publicly castigate the guy and act as judge, jury and executioner. The CAA will decide what happens to the pilot involved, if anything, based on the conclusions from the AAIB. If the CAA feels there is a genuine safety issue here (no comment) then they will take the necissary action. The decision will not be made by a group of mostly anonymous posters on an internet forum, but the appropriate regulatory authority, and we should respect that, as the CAA are very good at taking action on people who make our hobby/career dangerous, putting themselves and others at risk. They will not stand for it, and we should all back them up and respect whatever action they take.
I read a lot of prattish comments on PPRuNE on a regular basis. Like people who think it's OK to pick up a wing drop at the stall using aileron. Or a few weeks back when I read a comment by someone saying it's perfectly OK to fly in 3000m vis., VFR, as long as you are following a GPS. Or people who find it perfectly acceptable to attempt a turn back following an EFATO at a few hundred feet AGL. Just to quote a few examples. If these people think they know better then God help us all.
Closing thought: whilst many of us are sensible and would not get in this sort of situation, or at least we'd like to think that way, how would you feel if you were the subject of an AAIB report, with personal comments being directed at you from all angles on PPRuNE?
Time we all chilled out a little chaps.
Smithy
Capt. Smithy, I've thought about what you say, but I'm not convinced.
I might have been more persuaded if Vince hadn't represented himself on here as he did, and as often or as recently (after having seen a draft of the report) as he did.
Frankly, he's dangerously incompetent and unwilling to admit it. That's a valid opinion and IMO unarguable, and it is worth expressing so that other naive readers don't get taken in by bluster.
Sorry, Vince, but the truth sometimes has to hurt - before reality does.
I might have been more persuaded if Vince hadn't represented himself on here as he did, and as often or as recently (after having seen a draft of the report) as he did.
Frankly, he's dangerously incompetent and unwilling to admit it. That's a valid opinion and IMO unarguable, and it is worth expressing so that other naive readers don't get taken in by bluster.
Sorry, Vince, but the truth sometimes has to hurt - before reality does.
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Smithy apart from the fact he didn't have a RT lic and couldn't produce his log book as said previously all the main issues happen in Scotland. So they could go for the paper work charges down south which he would be daft to try and contest.
The CAA has no powers of prosecution in Scotland. It will be the proc fiscal in your own fair city who will decide if we get to hang the bast... opps sorry
And whats wrong with flying in 3k viz VFR? Thats what I did my CPL test in, in the vale of York and I didn't have a GPS.
Anyway people will want to express their disgust at his actions all over again mainly because of his attitude post accident. If he had fessed up and proclaimed "I f'd up" the reaction would be different.
There is a load of good learning points in that report for both experenced and student pilots. Unfortunately as previously said the pilots that could actually get the most benefit from the learning points will be the ones least likely to read it.
Yes he was a prat on numerous issues, I don't think this will be the last we hear on this accident. Now the report is out the legal system can start turning.
The CAA has no powers of prosecution in Scotland. It will be the proc fiscal in your own fair city who will decide if we get to hang the bast... opps sorry
And whats wrong with flying in 3k viz VFR? Thats what I did my CPL test in, in the vale of York and I didn't have a GPS.
Anyway people will want to express their disgust at his actions all over again mainly because of his attitude post accident. If he had fessed up and proclaimed "I f'd up" the reaction would be different.
There is a load of good learning points in that report for both experenced and student pilots. Unfortunately as previously said the pilots that could actually get the most benefit from the learning points will be the ones least likely to read it.
Yes he was a prat on numerous issues, I don't think this will be the last we hear on this accident. Now the report is out the legal system can start turning.
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I read a lot of prattish comments on PPRuNE on a regular basis
Or a few weeks back when I read a comment by someone saying it's perfectly OK to fly in 3000m vis., VFR, as long as you are following a GPS
With references to legal documents please, where appropriate.
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Capt. Smithy, while some of what you say appears reasonable, my understanding is that much of the flak the gentleman has attracted was generated by the tenor of his postings here, his press comments and subsequent corroboration from people who know him. And of course what is now documented as some pretty shoddy airmanship. Colin McRae was a friend of mine, but that did not make him any less blameworthy..
If he had fessed up and proclaimed "I f'd up" the reaction would be different.
More or less agreeing with Smithy: it's easy enough to have an opinion post-factum. Opinions are plenty, and cheap. Especially since the days of internet.
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This is a discussion board and so surely aviators of various persuasions are free to discuss matters of interest and express their opinions. In fact 'our man' has positively encouraged discussion with his personal contributions, some of which were so ill-advised as to raise questions about his competence as a pilot. Furthermore, unlike many accident threads, this thread was based largely on the first hand accounts of those involved and is now based on the published official findings. Not exactly idle speculation.
Flying is an unforgiving activity and at some point positivity, optimism and fluffiness have to give way to some hard-nosed realism. In my opinion, the chap concerned is a liability to himself and a danger to other users of the sky and it would be best for all concerned if he moved on to another, less risky, hobby. I sympathise to a limited extent. Not many people find training to be a pilot an easy ride, and most will have had 'eye-opening' moments at some point, but when someone reaches the limits of their talent so readily, you have to wonder if maybe they're just not cut out for piloting. There isn't an automatic right to be a pilot, and those who are not safe shouldn't be up there. Tough titty. Just my opinion.
Many pages back our hero incredibly stated that he was simply going to refer the AAIB inspector to his comments on this thread rather than fill in the official paperwork despite most of his inputs setting alarm bells ringing in the rest of us. Clearly he didn't think he'd done anything wrong at all. He even stated repeatedly that he had not run out of fuel and that it wasn't a crash. Now read the AAIB report again. This guy seems incapable of self-critique even after stacking a perfectly serviceable aeroplane into a treetop and bonging controlled airspace inhabited by airliners with hundreds of people down the back. Sure, it's not my decision whether or not he flies again, but I'd feel more comfortable if he and his ilk didn't.
Flying is an unforgiving activity and at some point positivity, optimism and fluffiness have to give way to some hard-nosed realism. In my opinion, the chap concerned is a liability to himself and a danger to other users of the sky and it would be best for all concerned if he moved on to another, less risky, hobby. I sympathise to a limited extent. Not many people find training to be a pilot an easy ride, and most will have had 'eye-opening' moments at some point, but when someone reaches the limits of their talent so readily, you have to wonder if maybe they're just not cut out for piloting. There isn't an automatic right to be a pilot, and those who are not safe shouldn't be up there. Tough titty. Just my opinion.
Many pages back our hero incredibly stated that he was simply going to refer the AAIB inspector to his comments on this thread rather than fill in the official paperwork despite most of his inputs setting alarm bells ringing in the rest of us. Clearly he didn't think he'd done anything wrong at all. He even stated repeatedly that he had not run out of fuel and that it wasn't a crash. Now read the AAIB report again. This guy seems incapable of self-critique even after stacking a perfectly serviceable aeroplane into a treetop and bonging controlled airspace inhabited by airliners with hundreds of people down the back. Sure, it's not my decision whether or not he flies again, but I'd feel more comfortable if he and his ilk didn't.
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I have to agree with Torque Tonight above, but I think there is a deeper question which needs to be asked: how can one graduate from the PPL sausage machine in the first place having received such apparently poor training, and then how does one get through the 2-yearly checks? The answer to the latter is easy enough (they are meaningless). The answer to the former is not so easy.
Yesterday I went for a local flight to check out some newly installed avionics, Upon returning, found some poor chap in the circuit who, according to ATC was flying at an estimated 400ft, and had to be told which way to turn in order to land. He sounded OK on the radio...
IMHO one learns little having a go at the pilots in these cases. It has to go further back.
Yesterday I went for a local flight to check out some newly installed avionics, Upon returning, found some poor chap in the circuit who, according to ATC was flying at an estimated 400ft, and had to be told which way to turn in order to land. He sounded OK on the radio...
IMHO one learns little having a go at the pilots in these cases. It has to go further back.
One thing I've learned is to go by people's actions
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Going back to the report, it says he relied on fuel consumption of 12 litres/h for his calculations. What cruise speed would that achieve in a CTSW, is it even remotely feasible to use that figure? I generally allow 20l/h in my Europa which gives 125kts (although it has the 914 engine when the turbo isn't being used figures are fairly similar to the 912)
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You can get the fuel burn on a 912S down to 12lph, but you are not going to go anywhere very quickly and in this case he was flying into a headwind which would make it even more of a problem.
Rod1
Rod1
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The Courier - 'Biggles' Vince Hagedorn keen to take to the skies again
Speaking from Philadelphia, Mr Hagedorn said he could not comment on the AAIB report because of unspecified "ongoing action."
He added, "The key point I would make from the report was that the cause of the engine stopping was not running out of fuel, as was reported at the time."
The 64-year-old said the flight planning had been carried out with two other people at Walney Island airfield, where the journey began.
The allegation he had entered controlled airspace was "debatable," said Mr Hagedorn, and there was ongoing dialogue with the CAA over the radio licence issue.
He added, "I haven't flown since the crash — I have been incredibly busy over the last 12 months — but I would love to fly again. In fact, I have already chosen my next aircraft."
Speaking from Philadelphia, Mr Hagedorn said he could not comment on the AAIB report because of unspecified "ongoing action."
He added, "The key point I would make from the report was that the cause of the engine stopping was not running out of fuel, as was reported at the time."
The 64-year-old said the flight planning had been carried out with two other people at Walney Island airfield, where the journey began.
The allegation he had entered controlled airspace was "debatable," said Mr Hagedorn, and there was ongoing dialogue with the CAA over the radio licence issue.
He added, "I haven't flown since the crash — I have been incredibly busy over the last 12 months — but I would love to fly again. In fact, I have already chosen my next aircraft."
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The point of the AAIB reports is to let us learn from the misfortunes and mistakes of others. In that spirit I am trying to learn from this report.
Re licences: check before flight.
Re airspace busts:
1) Even if you 'know' where you are, talk to ATC.
2) If uncertain of position, tell ATC early on.
Re fuel exhaustion:
1) use good data for fuel planning
2) do FREDA checks to monitor actual usage
3) land if low fuel is suspected
Re emergency landing sites:
1) Avoid towns.
2) Turn into wind early.
Have I missed anything?
Re licences: check before flight.
Re airspace busts:
1) Even if you 'know' where you are, talk to ATC.
2) If uncertain of position, tell ATC early on.
Re fuel exhaustion:
1) use good data for fuel planning
2) do FREDA checks to monitor actual usage
3) land if low fuel is suspected
Re emergency landing sites:
1) Avoid towns.
2) Turn into wind early.
Have I missed anything?
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Not sure about turning into wind 'early'.
It is important to know what the wind direction is without having to think about it, so draw a big arrow on your chart before setting off, however minor the journey.
Landing into wind is useful for obvious reasons, but if you have the height, travelling downwind will cover more ground and may help you spot a better landing site. Then, do the PFL circuit you've practised loads of times and land into wind.
It is important to know what the wind direction is without having to think about it, so draw a big arrow on your chart before setting off, however minor the journey.
Landing into wind is useful for obvious reasons, but if you have the height, travelling downwind will cover more ground and may help you spot a better landing site. Then, do the PFL circuit you've practised loads of times and land into wind.