LAA/PFA. Disorganised?
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LAA/PFA. Disorganised?
Just how well organised are the LAA?
I ask because for some time now I've been considering an aircraft or share and have tried to use the LAA and strut websites to see what's available. Yes, I could join up before buying the aircraft but I'd prefer to see if there's anything that suits me before committing to them.
The LAA website seems to be updated, at least in terms of the magazine, in a pretty slapdash fashion. I'm fairly certain the March classifieds have been online for well over a month as have previous editions and my email last year to the LAA asking when the site would be updated didn't even warrant a reply (hardly going to encourage me to give them any membership fees now is it?).
As for the strut websites some of them are woefully out of date*. I'm pretty sure one of them still had a report from christmas 2007 when I last looked but I suppose that's marginally better than those that either don't exist (thirteen or fourteen of the links yield only the message "There is no site for this strut"), are still under construction or have only a homepage. To be honest it all makes me think I'd be better off going my own way, I'm certainly not getting much encouragement to join up that's for sure.
If the reason is a lack of interest then I'm afraid they're on a downward spiral. Ignoring emails from would-be members and empty websites will just make the situation worse.
* Edit: I just visited one marked "Last modified 31.12.06"
I ask because for some time now I've been considering an aircraft or share and have tried to use the LAA and strut websites to see what's available. Yes, I could join up before buying the aircraft but I'd prefer to see if there's anything that suits me before committing to them.
The LAA website seems to be updated, at least in terms of the magazine, in a pretty slapdash fashion. I'm fairly certain the March classifieds have been online for well over a month as have previous editions and my email last year to the LAA asking when the site would be updated didn't even warrant a reply (hardly going to encourage me to give them any membership fees now is it?).
As for the strut websites some of them are woefully out of date*. I'm pretty sure one of them still had a report from christmas 2007 when I last looked but I suppose that's marginally better than those that either don't exist (thirteen or fourteen of the links yield only the message "There is no site for this strut"), are still under construction or have only a homepage. To be honest it all makes me think I'd be better off going my own way, I'm certainly not getting much encouragement to join up that's for sure.
If the reason is a lack of interest then I'm afraid they're on a downward spiral. Ignoring emails from would-be members and empty websites will just make the situation worse.
* Edit: I just visited one marked "Last modified 31.12.06"
Last edited by Flintstone; 6th Apr 2009 at 05:37.
It's a voluntary organisation, running to a tight budget, and many people refuse to join unless they really have to, rather than joining and helping. Given all that, hardly surprising really.
G
G
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The LAA is a good organisation to belong to if you own an aircraft that runs on an LAA permit to fly, they have a good engineering section, which although sometimes stretched does a good job on the whole, and now has extra staff to help with the growing numbers of aircraft on a permit. The magazine is first class and comes monthly, I will admit that the "Struts" are a lottery as to which is the most active to you, however these are an off-shoot of the LAA and not organised by them, however they do make for meeting points etc.
There is a wealth of knowledge within the ranks and most problems can usually be solved by either an inspector or a knowledgable member, they also have a Pilot Coaching Scheme to help with post PPL training, type conversions, differance training and bi-annual flights etc. I'm suprised to hear that you did not get a response to your e-mail, the LAA main office is usually good at responding. The web site is being worked on, and is reconised as being in need of up-dating, however just because the web site is not flashy does not mean it is a bad organisation.
If you PM mean address I'll send you a back copy of the magazine to give you an insite. Like all organisations they are what you make of them, and I'm happy with the LAA's approach to afforable flying.
Will.
There is a wealth of knowledge within the ranks and most problems can usually be solved by either an inspector or a knowledgable member, they also have a Pilot Coaching Scheme to help with post PPL training, type conversions, differance training and bi-annual flights etc. I'm suprised to hear that you did not get a response to your e-mail, the LAA main office is usually good at responding. The web site is being worked on, and is reconised as being in need of up-dating, however just because the web site is not flashy does not mean it is a bad organisation.
If you PM mean address I'll send you a back copy of the magazine to give you an insite. Like all organisations they are what you make of them, and I'm happy with the LAA's approach to afforable flying.
Will.
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Flintstone, What you have to ask yourself is there any other organisation that will do what you ask of the LAA ?
By that I mean,would the CAA or AOPA or anyone else be better placed to help you?
The LAA are unique but not perfect,they are staffed by human beings after all!
There are limitations with LAA aircraft but then light aircraft are all a compramise anyway and it really depends on what type of flying you want to do.
If you can't find a "strut" near you,there is a list of inspectors on the website and they will know who flies what in your area. I'm sure a phone call will open a whole new world for you.
You can PM me if you want and I'll put you in touch.
By that I mean,would the CAA or AOPA or anyone else be better placed to help you?
The LAA are unique but not perfect,they are staffed by human beings after all!
There are limitations with LAA aircraft but then light aircraft are all a compramise anyway and it really depends on what type of flying you want to do.
If you can't find a "strut" near you,there is a list of inspectors on the website and they will know who flies what in your area. I'm sure a phone call will open a whole new world for you.
You can PM me if you want and I'll put you in touch.
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Struts are affiliated to LAA not run or controlled by it in any way. Some like Devon are huge with over 200 members. Some like ours in Bristol are more modest with 55 members. We produce a monthly newletter but our website is updated as and we have someone that can do it. We charge £10 a year membership so do the sums and you can see we don't have cash for professional websites. Despite that we run 10 meetings a year each with a visiting speaker. We also hosted 2 ATSOCAS meetings, A GPS awareness evening and will host an airspace infringment meeting in June. All of these are for the pilots in the region not just LAA. Go to your local strut, and get involved. You will be amazed what is actually going on.
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The LAA is a member’s organisation which is 8200 strong. It tends to fall by doing things “MEMBERS ONLY” and appearing unapproachable to non members. The Engineering side is first class and there is a huge pool of expertise within the membership which offers help. The inspectors, in particular, are very good, and often charge very little above expenses.
The struts are not part of the LAA and are small groups who are not well resourced. I do not know what area you are in but if you are midlands based and would like to meet up, have a look at some LAA aircraft and then get an introduction to the local strut I would be happy to help.
The only other similar organisation in the UK is the BMAA, who have a much better PR / Web setup but are restricted to sub 450kg machines and are ½ the size of the LAA. That said, they are a great bunch of guys and have a younger membership and a more modern approach.
Rod1
The struts are not part of the LAA and are small groups who are not well resourced. I do not know what area you are in but if you are midlands based and would like to meet up, have a look at some LAA aircraft and then get an introduction to the local strut I would be happy to help.
The only other similar organisation in the UK is the BMAA, who have a much better PR / Web setup but are restricted to sub 450kg machines and are ½ the size of the LAA. That said, they are a great bunch of guys and have a younger membership and a more modern approach.
Rod1
Last edited by Rod1; 6th Apr 2009 at 08:56.
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The LAA runs on a shoestring. Ordinary membership is only £48pa which also covers the cost a well-worthwhile monthly magazine, which would probably cost around £48 pa on its own. OK, it's probably not the very best aviation magazine but it's much stronger on owner maintenance than any other UK magazine.
The website is second-rate, nowhere near as slick as most. But you have to remember that the LAA don't have a large budget to run it. Don't judge the LAA by the quality of the website (although members never tire of warning the LAA that people will do that anyway!)
The Strut system works well around here (Gloster Strut) because certain people work tirelessly and for free to make it so (tip hat to Harry). It's a fantastic resource for people who are building their aircraft or maintaining it themselves.
Is the LAA perfect? No, of course not. Could it be improved? Certainly - but ask yourself - if the LAA was perfect, and then you joined it, would it still be perfect?
The website is second-rate, nowhere near as slick as most. But you have to remember that the LAA don't have a large budget to run it. Don't judge the LAA by the quality of the website (although members never tire of warning the LAA that people will do that anyway!)
The Strut system works well around here (Gloster Strut) because certain people work tirelessly and for free to make it so (tip hat to Harry). It's a fantastic resource for people who are building their aircraft or maintaining it themselves.
Is the LAA perfect? No, of course not. Could it be improved? Certainly - but ask yourself - if the LAA was perfect, and then you joined it, would it still be perfect?
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Strangely enough Gloster, Devon and Bristol were three of the few strut sites that seem to me to have all their shi.........stuff in one sock, no surprise then that some of you quote them/yourselves as being the most pro-active and replied to this thread so quickly. My nearest would be Hertfordshire, one of the least impressive in my opinion. Surprising really, being dahn sarf with more bodies to call upon I'd imagined them to be one of the more active struts.
Ah, but there's the rub. These days anyone who's anyone uses t'interweb and you have to speculate to accumulate. Most people would rather join what appears to be a decently run organisation than take the chance of joining an (apparently) shabby one and putting heaps of time and effort into changing it with no guarantee of success. Having been there before I'm pretty reluctant to do so again.
Much as I'd love to own a permit aircraft (just missed out on my dream, an Isaacs Fury) it's looking to me like I'd be better off with a share in a well organised syndicate on something on a CofA.
Originally Posted by Humaround
Don't judge the LAA by the quality of the website (although members never tire of warning the LAA that people will do that anyway!)
Much as I'd love to own a permit aircraft (just missed out on my dream, an Isaacs Fury) it's looking to me like I'd be better off with a share in a well organised syndicate on something on a CofA.
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I own a CofA machine but am a member of the Devon Strut.
The reason for joining them is quite simply that they organise the sort of flying I like doing. I don't go for massive IFR touring otherwise I'd join something else.
I do understand that Herts Strut is trying to rebuild itself, though.
The reason for joining them is quite simply that they organise the sort of flying I like doing. I don't go for massive IFR touring otherwise I'd join something else.
I do understand that Herts Strut is trying to rebuild itself, though.
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It's a matter of what you want to do. I'm a member of LAA and AOPA UK.
I fly a Permit aircraft, which greatly reduces costs and means that I can fly much more often and at lower cost than I would if I were flying one on a C of A. Much of the cost saving comes from being able to do a large part of the ongoing maintenance yourself rather than paying someone else to do it.
If you don't want to get involved and prefer to pay someone else to do the work then a Permit Aircraft and the LAA is perhaps not for you.
However we all occupy the same sky and are subject to the same laws so I urge you to join at least one organisation who will use your support to campaign on your behalf and preserve your freedoms.
As others have pointed out the Struts are autonomous organisations afilliated to the LAA, they are not owned by or part of the LAA. One of their main purposes is to provide a social forum for their members in the local area.
I fly a Permit aircraft, which greatly reduces costs and means that I can fly much more often and at lower cost than I would if I were flying one on a C of A. Much of the cost saving comes from being able to do a large part of the ongoing maintenance yourself rather than paying someone else to do it.
If you don't want to get involved and prefer to pay someone else to do the work then a Permit Aircraft and the LAA is perhaps not for you.
However we all occupy the same sky and are subject to the same laws so I urge you to join at least one organisation who will use your support to campaign on your behalf and preserve your freedoms.
As others have pointed out the Struts are autonomous organisations afilliated to the LAA, they are not owned by or part of the LAA. One of their main purposes is to provide a social forum for their members in the local area.
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Spannering on an aircraft isn't a problem for me, I'm more than happy to get stuck in and have a licensed engineer and LAA inspector friend to call on when I get stuck. I've worked on aircraft before (under an engineer to part fund my own licence) and helped rebuild a couple too. In fact I'd prefer a permit aircraft of my own rather than a share in one but as an outsider looking in the LAA just doesn't come across as a terribly well organised...... um, organisation. Working in a commercial aviation environment I'm used to things to do with aeroplanes being 'just so'. The impression given by the LAA is a bit shambolic and while I'm very sorry if that offends some of the members who might consider it otherwise that's the picture presented to those of us looking in.
Imagine you were out for a drink and saw two pubs. One the picture of English pubness with a thatched roof, beer garden and roses round the door with real ale on tap drawn on hand pumps from the cellar by a buxom wench. The other with half the windows boarded up, a St George flag draped from an upstairs window and a hand-painted banner on a bedsheet across the front of the building proclaiming "WWF Death Match Cage Fighting Every Night". Tell me, would you head straight for 'Ye Olde Bull' or make for 'The Builders Bumcrack' thinking to yourself 'I'm going to make this a better place by discussing theology with the barman'?
An extreme analogy I'll admit but first impressions are important.
Imagine you were out for a drink and saw two pubs. One the picture of English pubness with a thatched roof, beer garden and roses round the door with real ale on tap drawn on hand pumps from the cellar by a buxom wench. The other with half the windows boarded up, a St George flag draped from an upstairs window and a hand-painted banner on a bedsheet across the front of the building proclaiming "WWF Death Match Cage Fighting Every Night". Tell me, would you head straight for 'Ye Olde Bull' or make for 'The Builders Bumcrack' thinking to yourself 'I'm going to make this a better place by discussing theology with the barman'?
An extreme analogy I'll admit but first impressions are important.
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Ok one last comment. If you buy and LAA aircraft and use you inspector friend then your entire contact to run the aircraft with LAA head office will be a permit renewal pack, which you will produce, your inspector will sign and you will post to LAA HQ. If you fill it in right (which is not at all hard) you will get your renewal by return of post. The rest of the “LAA world” can then be completely ignored if it is not to your taste. The Engineering side is very very good…
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Rod.
It's not me not wanting anything to do with them. Quite the opposite. I've written via the main website and also called people at one of the struts with no response. See it from the outsiders point of view. A disjointed public face and no replies to enquiries.
What would your impression be?
Genghis. That noise was your letterbox rattling.
It's not me not wanting anything to do with them. Quite the opposite. I've written via the main website and also called people at one of the struts with no response. See it from the outsiders point of view. A disjointed public face and no replies to enquiries.
What would your impression be?
Genghis. That noise was your letterbox rattling.
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Quite a few and that's very much appreciated. I get a feeling though that I could deal with those like-minded souls on a one to one basis and enjoy flying with them while still waiting to hear from the organisation.
Please re-read my posts, I'm not criticising Joe Bloggs but rather the impression the LAA 'body-corporate' presents. You wrote "It tends to fall by doing things “MEMBERS ONLY” and appearing unapproachable to non members". That's the part that prompted me to ask my original question so it seems we agree.
Please re-read my posts, I'm not criticising Joe Bloggs but rather the impression the LAA 'body-corporate' presents. You wrote "It tends to fall by doing things “MEMBERS ONLY” and appearing unapproachable to non members". That's the part that prompted me to ask my original question so it seems we agree.
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I have spent many years trying to get the PR / web / forum improved and have largely given up. The fact remains though that it is a member’s organisation and your contact with LAA HQ will be virtually nil unless you volunteer to help. In short, if you do go for an LAA aircraft the only thing that you have to have is a permit and that side of the organisation, although invisible to non members, is very good. I am not at all surprised that the PR/Marketing side is putting you off but I can advise you on how to join and make your inspector happy. If you join through him he will get 6 months free membership!
Rod1
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Flintstone, what is your hidden agenda? You post this question seemingly innocently.
You get plenty of offers of help.
You then let it slip that you are used to doing maintainance with the help of a LAA inspector.
SO.. you are aquainted with LAA procedures,you have contacts within the LAA and certainly have access to the answers that you seek.
Therefor I can only assume that you have come on here to winge and join the LAA bashing brigade.
I offered you help and said you should PM me if you needed further help.
You had 30yrs of experience at your fingertips from me alone. Others have offered help and there is probably more experiance available about aircraft ownership from within the LAA ,covering everything from microlights,giros,aerobatic types,touring types right up to very efficient 4 seat designs ,than ANY other organisation in the U.K.
I made a point that the LAA is not perfect,and the website is the prime example,but did you offer help? suggestions? ideas? no just winges.
This wingeing is exactly the bad publicity that you are winging about.Its a downward spiral..and not helpfull other than it has highlighted to others how much help is available from within the LAA.
And final rant..Most clubs /golf courses etc don't let you play unless you are a member,why should the LAA be any different? After all you've clearly had the oppertunity to have a look at what is available.
You get plenty of offers of help.
You then let it slip that you are used to doing maintainance with the help of a LAA inspector.
SO.. you are aquainted with LAA procedures,you have contacts within the LAA and certainly have access to the answers that you seek.
Therefor I can only assume that you have come on here to winge and join the LAA bashing brigade.
I offered you help and said you should PM me if you needed further help.
You had 30yrs of experience at your fingertips from me alone. Others have offered help and there is probably more experiance available about aircraft ownership from within the LAA ,covering everything from microlights,giros,aerobatic types,touring types right up to very efficient 4 seat designs ,than ANY other organisation in the U.K.
I made a point that the LAA is not perfect,and the website is the prime example,but did you offer help? suggestions? ideas? no just winges.
This wingeing is exactly the bad publicity that you are winging about.Its a downward spiral..and not helpfull other than it has highlighted to others how much help is available from within the LAA.
And final rant..Most clubs /golf courses etc don't let you play unless you are a member,why should the LAA be any different? After all you've clearly had the oppertunity to have a look at what is available.
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LAA disorganised?
That was your initial question and I would disagree strongly. It is trying hard to make flying affordable and to do that there have to be priorities. Those priorities may not be the ones you would have chosen but I, for one, would rather the resources available were spent on providing an excellent engineering service and protecting our right to fly with EASA and the CAA than in a flashy website. Just my opinion.
I am also responsible for one of the Strut websites, not because I know what I'm doing but because there is nobody else in the Strut willing to do it. The site gives basic information on our meetings and how to get there. It would seem Flintstone would prefer us to have no presence on the web. Perhaps that's a good idea - it would certainly save me some time!
That was your initial question and I would disagree strongly. It is trying hard to make flying affordable and to do that there have to be priorities. Those priorities may not be the ones you would have chosen but I, for one, would rather the resources available were spent on providing an excellent engineering service and protecting our right to fly with EASA and the CAA than in a flashy website. Just my opinion.
I am also responsible for one of the Strut websites, not because I know what I'm doing but because there is nobody else in the Strut willing to do it. The site gives basic information on our meetings and how to get there. It would seem Flintstone would prefer us to have no presence on the web. Perhaps that's a good idea - it would certainly save me some time!
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Working in a commercial aviation environment I'm used to things to do with aeroplanes being 'just so'. The impression given by the LAA is a bit shambolic and while I'm very sorry if that offends some of the members who might consider it otherwise that's the picture presented to those of us looking in.
I can assure you that my own dealings with LAA engineering do not suggest anything shambolic. I'm old and canny enough not to entrust my life to shambolic practices.
Back to your original question:-
"Just how well organised are the LAA?"
The answer I'd suggest is as well as they need to be. Sure, in any organisation you can throw loads of money at a swish website, corporate communications, lots of good looking secretaries and a palatial head office. We're far too stingy to do that
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hartzflyer.
Clearly the LAA is something of importance to you but in your haste to defend them you have made several (erroneous) assumptions leading to your self-confessed rant. In fairness these were based upon the (limited) information that I gave but had I anticipated accusations of conspiracy I'd have bored you with my life story from the outset. To help alleviate your blood pressure though I'll amplify.
I know someone who is a LAME and LAA inspector and offered this information freely so nothing was 'let slip' at all. No hidden agenda there, not even discussed this with him as we only bump into each other a couple of times a year so might we dispense with the melodrama please? My spannering experience goes back to my having worked in a hangar, in Australia so no LAA connection, many years ago to fund my training.
No. I am not and nowhere have I written that I am. If I were I would have said so and not have asked my questions here. I'm not in the habit of wasting my or anyone elses time. If you choose to disbelieve me click on my name there <<<<, select 'Find more posts by Flintstone' and see if I've ever shown signs of anti-LAA/PFA in the past. Surely if I'm orchestrating a campaign against them I'll have slated them here at some other time in my ten year PPRuNe membership?
You write that you "assume" that I'm here to "winge" (sic) and "bash". A wise old aviator once told me that after a junior officer with a map and compass the most dangerous thing in aviation is an untested assumption. What I do seem to be here for is a keyboard whipping for having the temerity to question the LAA's accessibility and (lack of) reaction to potential members which I have to say is an interesting way to win hearts and minds.
It's your association, not mine. I find it peculiar that someone should consider it the responsibility of non-members to offer fixes. In any event I've read and re-read the thread and cannot see where I was asked for suggestions though I'd have thought my comments highlighting where I'd had difficulty came pretty close. If you'd like me to give them in a step-by-step format well, making access for would-be members better/easier and replying to them when they enquire might be a good place to start. The way some struts present themselves to the outside world smacks of cliqueiness and I'm sorry if that offends but I'm giving an outsiders view. Indeed at least one contributor/member in this thread has alluded to this as have several others by way of PMs.
Hatzflyer. To borrow your own analogy if you wanted to join the golf club and they treated you in the same manner would you still want to join? I actually attended a strut night once about five years ago. In the half an hour before I gave up and left how many people spoke to me? I'll leave you to guess but here's a clue, the answer is less than one. Add to that my unanswered emails and, it has to be said, a bit of an over-reaction from some on here and it's in danger of appearing to be an unfriendly environment.
Whingeing the cause of the downward spiral? No. What you describe as whingeing is a reaction to the LAA's behaviour not an out-of-the-blue decision on my part to slate an organisation at random (though I confess that the Womens Institute is in line for a stiff letter if they don't respond with some jam recipes soon). Might I have felt the need to express my opinion (whinge) had the LAA answered my queries? Physician, heal thyself. You're seeing thngs that aren't there. Clearly the LAA is something you care about but accusing me of things I've neither said nor done are hardly going to encourage me or others into the fold now are they? As for not contacting you well I'm sorry you feel offended that I didn't accept your kind offer immediately but I can only correspond with so many people at a time and I thank those of you who have answered me privately.
Quite the opposite. I tried to use the web to gain information although you may have a point. Following a link that goes nowhere is perhaps more frustrating than there being no link at all.
Mike. Points taken. By 'just so' I meant that I'm used to flying in an environment where information is immediately forthcoming. If I want information on (say) a remote destination it's at my fingertips. If I need an engineer's explanation of a component it's there. I appreciate that flying for fun moves at a slower pace but come on, so far it's like pulling teeth. Anyone would think it's all meant to be a secret. You can also tell me the truth, there are really good looking secretaries. Aren't there?
Clearly the LAA is something of importance to you but in your haste to defend them you have made several (erroneous) assumptions leading to your self-confessed rant. In fairness these were based upon the (limited) information that I gave but had I anticipated accusations of conspiracy I'd have bored you with my life story from the outset. To help alleviate your blood pressure though I'll amplify.
I know someone who is a LAME and LAA inspector and offered this information freely so nothing was 'let slip' at all. No hidden agenda there, not even discussed this with him as we only bump into each other a couple of times a year so might we dispense with the melodrama please? My spannering experience goes back to my having worked in a hangar, in Australia so no LAA connection, many years ago to fund my training.
....you are aquainted with LAA procedures....
You write that you "assume" that I'm here to "winge" (sic) and "bash". A wise old aviator once told me that after a junior officer with a map and compass the most dangerous thing in aviation is an untested assumption. What I do seem to be here for is a keyboard whipping for having the temerity to question the LAA's accessibility and (lack of) reaction to potential members which I have to say is an interesting way to win hearts and minds.
Originally Posted by hatzflyer
I made a point that the LAA is not perfect,and the website is the prime example,but did you offer help? suggestions? ideas? no just winges.
Hatzflyer. To borrow your own analogy if you wanted to join the golf club and they treated you in the same manner would you still want to join? I actually attended a strut night once about five years ago. In the half an hour before I gave up and left how many people spoke to me? I'll leave you to guess but here's a clue, the answer is less than one. Add to that my unanswered emails and, it has to be said, a bit of an over-reaction from some on here and it's in danger of appearing to be an unfriendly environment.
Whingeing the cause of the downward spiral? No. What you describe as whingeing is a reaction to the LAA's behaviour not an out-of-the-blue decision on my part to slate an organisation at random (though I confess that the Womens Institute is in line for a stiff letter if they don't respond with some jam recipes soon). Might I have felt the need to express my opinion (whinge) had the LAA answered my queries? Physician, heal thyself. You're seeing thngs that aren't there. Clearly the LAA is something you care about but accusing me of things I've neither said nor done are hardly going to encourage me or others into the fold now are they? As for not contacting you well I'm sorry you feel offended that I didn't accept your kind offer immediately but I can only correspond with so many people at a time and I thank those of you who have answered me privately.
Originally Posted by Jodelman
It would seem Flintstone would prefer us to have no presence on the web.
Mike. Points taken. By 'just so' I meant that I'm used to flying in an environment where information is immediately forthcoming. If I want information on (say) a remote destination it's at my fingertips. If I need an engineer's explanation of a component it's there. I appreciate that flying for fun moves at a slower pace but come on, so far it's like pulling teeth. Anyone would think it's all meant to be a secret. You can also tell me the truth, there are really good looking secretaries. Aren't there?
Last edited by Flintstone; 7th Apr 2009 at 04:06.