Fleet grounded at 7kts??

[XL319]

I had a flight booked at my local flight school. The TAF read 30016kt 9999 FEW031 BECMG 1719 28003. The METAR was 30007KT with the runway being 231 degree's. The school would not fly. I asked why they would not fly as the wind is 7KT's forcast to decrease and they said the wiond direction is dangerous being right across the runway. I couldn't beleive what i was hearing. A C152 has a demonstrated Xwind landing of 15KT's.
I was somewhat bemused as to why they would not fly.
Later checked and the wind went down to 29002KT

[mad_jock]

Sounds like an excuse to cancel.

It could be multiple reasons why they wanted to cancel you and a 5 knt x-wind wasn't one of them.

[Joe'le'Toff]

Egnv?

Cfs?

[FREDAcheck]

Well I know some schools won't let their planes out if the crosswind is over the demonstrated limit for the plane, but 7kt? Only for low-hour students with no crosswind experience, perhaps? Shurely shome mistake (or really another reason to cancel).

[gcolyer]

Well the TAF was saying 16kts

[flyingphil1]

I always say "when in doubt .. leave it out!" however 7knots would have been good for some relatively easy crosswind landing practice. I think you should talk to them again!

[flyingphil1]

not looking properly..

sorry ...I didn’t read properly.. if the cross wind could have been 16 knots which was, according to the TAF, you can hardly blame the school .. apologies and promise to read more carefully in the future.

[Rod1]

Get a share and save the pain.

Rod1

[Whirlybird]

the wind is 7KT's forcast to decrease

According to the TAF, it wasn't forecast to decrease until after 5pm, which is after dark at this time of year. So that can be disregarded. The TAF reckoned the wind would be 16kts, and around 30 degrees off the runway heading....actually probably more like 35 degrees in reality, as the wind direction is true, the runway direction magnetic. You don't say how much experience you have, but that's a reasonable crosswind, especially for a low hours pilot. And forecasts are not that precise - suppose the wind increased to 20kts, and backed to 290 (and it did back, didn't it?). Not a lot of change, but now you have a strong wind by most people's standards, straight across the runway, and out of the limits of both what's stated for the C152, and more importantly, the limits for many pilots.

I think the school was being cautious, but not overly so.

[flyingphil1]

Folklore?

Hi Whirlly .. am I missing something ? is the offset not 70 degrees? If so would that not make 100% of the crosswind and officially beyond the limits of a 150? Anyway I have heard of one airfield |(2 people swear this is true) training in 40 knot plus crosswinds?!! The CFI was 35,000 hours but I find 25 knots very demanding and have 500 hours in 150s but even so rermind myself I'm still a relative novice and leave the heroics for more able pilots.

[matelot]

Did the METAR come from your own field, or another? If so, how far away? Just because it was 7kts one minute, doesn't mean you won't get veering shear and an increase the next.

The TAF forecast 16kts right on the beam (300 - 230 = 70 deg.) Yes, it may have been OK for an instructor, but you may have done a short flight and then got completely caught out.

Having said that, I don't know what your status is (hours/stude et al).

Lightish winds not as forecast is... sod's law. A meaningful discussion with the one who made the decision is often beneficial to learn why people make the decisions they do.

[smarthawke]

It may sound a bit pedantic but I think you'll find the C152 max demonstrated cross wind limit is 15mph not knots (ie 12kts or so).

It would make for an interesting insurance claim if the TAF/METARs exceeded the max demonstrated limit and an aircraft was damaged - even if it wasn't as a result of the cross wind.

Years ago someone reckoned on another forum the max demonstrated cross wind limit was set on the day of the FAA-observed flight test so could only be as much as the wind was blowing on the day - doh!

[XL319]

I understand people's issues here. Remember the TAF always forcasts the worst case scenario for the period indicated. The METAR was 7KTS for 1 1/2 hours as i was watching it. It never went over 12KTS.

I think the FTO was being very over cautious. At the end of the day its their aircraft, but on many occassions the TAF has been wrong and updated as was the case on sunday in Manchester.

I've landed in 15KT crosswinds....it's good practice for me

[Whirlybird]

Hi Whirlly .. am I missing something ? is the offset not 70 degrees?

The only thing you're missing is that Whirly hasn't yet recovered from the effects of a rather good New Year's Eve and therefore can't do simple arithmatic!

[matelot]

Do those things with the whirly bits on top ever experience crosswinds on t/o or landing? Can't they always point into wind and in reality don't even know what a crosswind is?

[silverelise]

Originally Posted by smarthawke

Years ago someone reckoned on another forum the max demonstrated cross wind limit was set on the day of the FAA-observed flight test so could only be as much as the wind was blowing on the day - doh!

That's correct isn't it?
Shirley the "cross wind limit" is the maximum demonstrated cross wind tested during the aircraft's certification process???

[flyingphil1]

I fly a 150 aerobat ... have just checked the P.O.H. and ...... there is no cross-wind limit stated!!! Unless I'm also suffering from ex-party syndrome (well done Whirly) and missed it I may take my personal limit to 40 knots crosswind too (Ok not really able ) .. are there any threads on this new tax on aviation fuel which may prematurely end my flying hobby? ............anyone for tennis?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Originally Posted by flyingphil1

40 knots crosswind

Tried to go flying on Friday, gave up because of crosswind, instructor landed and that was that.

Then the instructor told me about the time he had to land in a 55kt crosswind. Had to, because the aeroplane (a Shackleton which was on an S&R mission but became a victim itself) had become broken such that they only had one go at putting it down.

He says they took out just one row of runway lights and considered it a good landing!

[flyingphil1]

Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat

instructor told me about the time he had to land in a 55kt crosswind

any increase? I have landed in a 50 knot but that was a 747 and someone else P1!!!

[muffin]

Do those things with the whirly bits on top ever experience crosswinds on t/o or landing? Can't they always point into wind and in reality don't even know what a crosswind is?

Yes they do. Actually you always try to land and take off into wind which is normally easy. However, if the site restricts you it is quite possible to do so out of wind but you have to be careful as it is trickier. The crosswind limit is actually determined by the amount of cyclic authority available, as you obviously have to be stationary as you let it down on to the ground. If you don't have enough sideways cyclic control available to hold it in one place as you touch down, then you have to turn into wind where the control range availability is much greater.