JAA standard in USA?
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JAA standard in USA?
Hello, I am new to here and I apologize if I have posted this on the wrong forum...
Please correct me if i am wrong. I am currently in London, so if I learn to fly here I will be under the JAA standard? I am wonding if I have earned couples of hours here in London, but before I complete my PPL, can I continue with my training in the USA? or I will have to start over?
Are there any schools in the US that offers JAA standard training?
how hard is the conversion of private license? There are ads. here on aviation magazines claiming that it is possible to earn a PPL in about 21 days in USA. Is it a good idea or it is going to be tough since the course is so intensive?
thanks so much for any help and sorry for asking so many questions...
Please correct me if i am wrong. I am currently in London, so if I learn to fly here I will be under the JAA standard? I am wonding if I have earned couples of hours here in London, but before I complete my PPL, can I continue with my training in the USA? or I will have to start over?
Are there any schools in the US that offers JAA standard training?
how hard is the conversion of private license? There are ads. here on aviation magazines claiming that it is possible to earn a PPL in about 21 days in USA. Is it a good idea or it is going to be tough since the course is so intensive?
thanks so much for any help and sorry for asking so many questions...
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There are 7 schools in USA approved to conduct training towards a JAR PPL (A), see page 5 of this document
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_FCL_APPROVEDFTOS.PDF
I did my PPL in 4 weeks at Ormond beach recently, would have been 3 had Katrina and Rita descide not to pick the month I descided to go there. Hard work, but fun. I'd recommend doing the theory before going there.
If you are training now in the UK, you will indeed be training towards a UK JAR PPL(A). You'll have to ask the FAA with regards to using expericence gained in the UK for a FAA PPL. Like the UK, they may allow a small proportion.
Did I answer all your questions?
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_FCL_APPROVEDFTOS.PDF
I did my PPL in 4 weeks at Ormond beach recently, would have been 3 had Katrina and Rita descide not to pick the month I descided to go there. Hard work, but fun. I'd recommend doing the theory before going there.
If you are training now in the UK, you will indeed be training towards a UK JAR PPL(A). You'll have to ask the FAA with regards to using expericence gained in the UK for a FAA PPL. Like the UK, they may allow a small proportion.
Did I answer all your questions?
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Hi ivierre,
If you do a JAR PPL in US, then there is no licence conversion on your return home.
I would suggest that you let the prospective school know what training you have done to date, and take it from there.
As Vincent has mentioned, if you want to take some of the strain away from an intensive course, then get some of the ground work done first if you can.
Can a PPL be done in 21 days - yep! I too attended OBA (just over 10 years ago now) and yep - the going can be tough but it can be rewarding too. I'm going back there in Feb 06 and will do a BFR and hopefully get a rental for a couple of hours.
If there is anything else I can help you with, feel free to PM me.
PD
If you do a JAR PPL in US, then there is no licence conversion on your return home.
I would suggest that you let the prospective school know what training you have done to date, and take it from there.
As Vincent has mentioned, if you want to take some of the strain away from an intensive course, then get some of the ground work done first if you can.
Can a PPL be done in 21 days - yep! I too attended OBA (just over 10 years ago now) and yep - the going can be tough but it can be rewarding too. I'm going back there in Feb 06 and will do a BFR and hopefully get a rental for a couple of hours.
If there is anything else I can help you with, feel free to PM me.
PD
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Flying hours usually count provided they they are certified correct by the school where they were flown. On application for a PPL the school has to certify that you have completed all of the mandatory training, if they are not sure what you have done, they will only certify what training they have given you!
Yes it is possible to do a PPL in 21 days but not to be recommended. Ideally about 6 weeks is the optimum time for absorbing all the necessary material. Those who learn quickly usually forget equally as quickly! Schools that offer a 45 hours PPL in 21 days provide you with exactly that, a 21 day PPL; there is no guarantee you will be any good or anything better than just about safe enough to get a licence. if you then wait several months before you fly again you'l probably need another 15 20 hours to convince a school to let you hire their aeroplanes!
The UK average hours to get a PPL is arround 55/60 in North America its actually higher!
Yes it is possible to do a PPL in 21 days but not to be recommended. Ideally about 6 weeks is the optimum time for absorbing all the necessary material. Those who learn quickly usually forget equally as quickly! Schools that offer a 45 hours PPL in 21 days provide you with exactly that, a 21 day PPL; there is no guarantee you will be any good or anything better than just about safe enough to get a licence. if you then wait several months before you fly again you'l probably need another 15 20 hours to convince a school to let you hire their aeroplanes!
The UK average hours to get a PPL is arround 55/60 in North America its actually higher!
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Noggin,
Just to pick you up on a few points
"Yes it is possible to do a PPL in 21 days but not to be recommended" Why?
"Ideally about 6 weeks is the optimum time for absorbing all the necessary material" Based on what information?
"Schools that offer a 45 hours PPL in 21 days provide you with exactly that, a 21 day PPL; there is no guarantee you will be any good or anything better than just about safe enough to get a licence" Where did you get that little pearl of wisdom from?
"if you then wait several months before you fly again you'l probably need another 15 20 hours to convince a school to let you hire their aeroplanes" What the f**k? I waited 6 months between passing my GFT and taking my checkride at Newcastle - I was signed off after 40 mins.
Just to pick you up on a few points
"Yes it is possible to do a PPL in 21 days but not to be recommended" Why?
"Ideally about 6 weeks is the optimum time for absorbing all the necessary material" Based on what information?
"Schools that offer a 45 hours PPL in 21 days provide you with exactly that, a 21 day PPL; there is no guarantee you will be any good or anything better than just about safe enough to get a licence" Where did you get that little pearl of wisdom from?
"if you then wait several months before you fly again you'l probably need another 15 20 hours to convince a school to let you hire their aeroplanes" What the f**k? I waited 6 months between passing my GFT and taking my checkride at Newcastle - I was signed off after 40 mins.
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thanks for the replies.
So hope i am on the right track that if i have say 20 hours in UK with a JAR school, then I am only possible to continue with a school in the US that offer JAR standard training? Or not possible at all?
Also, I am wondering how hard is it to do license conversion? thanks
So hope i am on the right track that if i have say 20 hours in UK with a JAR school, then I am only possible to continue with a school in the US that offer JAR standard training? Or not possible at all?
Also, I am wondering how hard is it to do license conversion? thanks
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ivierre,
If you have 20 hours of JAR instruction, then it would make sense to carry along that route towards a JAR PPL and that can be done two ways:
1) stay in blighty and finish your training here, or
2) go to North America and attend one of the seven schools on the link provided by vincent.
Any school, regardless of where they are situated will want to see what you have been taught so far, obviously.
If you take the JAR route through to a succesful conclusion - you get a JAR licence - there is no conversion required at all.
You will know this already but it's worth reiterating - the school you choose do not provide you with your licence - the CAA does that.
PD
If you have 20 hours of JAR instruction, then it would make sense to carry along that route towards a JAR PPL and that can be done two ways:
1) stay in blighty and finish your training here, or
2) go to North America and attend one of the seven schools on the link provided by vincent.
Any school, regardless of where they are situated will want to see what you have been taught so far, obviously.
If you take the JAR route through to a succesful conclusion - you get a JAR licence - there is no conversion required at all.
You will know this already but it's worth reiterating - the school you choose do not provide you with your licence - the CAA does that.
PD
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Hi there.
I recently went from Zero to fully qualified JAA PPL(A) in 45.2 hours (20 days) at a CAA/JAA certified flying school in San Diego, USA.
Very hard work to fit the hours into 3 weeks, so I would recommend getting all the written exams done in the UK to give yourself some relaxation time when you are there. Think very carefully about where you go and the time of year. Florida + Summer = potential for storms. California climate is much more benign. I lost about 1 mornings flying due to poor weather in September.
Absolute nonsence about US trained pilots on accelerated courses being less safe than UK trained pilots. Do you honestly think the CAA/JAA would issue licenses without a UK "checkride" for US trained PPL if that was the case?
Go to America, Enjoy the weather and the considerably more friendly skies, have probably the most rewarding 3 weeks of your life.
I recently went from Zero to fully qualified JAA PPL(A) in 45.2 hours (20 days) at a CAA/JAA certified flying school in San Diego, USA.
Very hard work to fit the hours into 3 weeks, so I would recommend getting all the written exams done in the UK to give yourself some relaxation time when you are there. Think very carefully about where you go and the time of year. Florida + Summer = potential for storms. California climate is much more benign. I lost about 1 mornings flying due to poor weather in September.
Absolute nonsence about US trained pilots on accelerated courses being less safe than UK trained pilots. Do you honestly think the CAA/JAA would issue licenses without a UK "checkride" for US trained PPL if that was the case?
Go to America, Enjoy the weather and the considerably more friendly skies, have probably the most rewarding 3 weeks of your life.
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PD
Because I have experience of teaching students in 21 days and in much longer periods. The 21 days was an extension of MOD flying scholarships. The RAF would not dream of trying to cover the content of a PPL in 21 days, their equivalent the old BFTS took 6 weeks.
CD
" Do you honestly think the CAA/JAA would issue licenses without a UK "checkride" for US trained PPL if that was the case?"
They don't, if you want to convert a licence you have to take a Skill Test. If you fly on the foreign licence then the CAA are merely complying with an ICAO agreement. If you mean the US trained JAA licence then the examiner is a UK authorised examiner however, he works for the company selling the product!
Since writing my last post I have spoken to another CFI who complained
that he had encountered yet more US trained pilots who cant work the radio, and need a further 10 or so hours.
Ask arround at a few schools, its quite common. There are always a few who don't need any additional training, but the majority do!
Not many potential students know that a US Instructor does not have to attend an Instructor Course like their European counterparts. As a result, the methods of instruction vary widely.
I would not wish to deter anyone from learning in the US, I have flown with many people who have, some very good, some terrible but the main point is that experience tells me you can't produce many good pilots in 21 days!
Because I have experience of teaching students in 21 days and in much longer periods. The 21 days was an extension of MOD flying scholarships. The RAF would not dream of trying to cover the content of a PPL in 21 days, their equivalent the old BFTS took 6 weeks.
CD
" Do you honestly think the CAA/JAA would issue licenses without a UK "checkride" for US trained PPL if that was the case?"
They don't, if you want to convert a licence you have to take a Skill Test. If you fly on the foreign licence then the CAA are merely complying with an ICAO agreement. If you mean the US trained JAA licence then the examiner is a UK authorised examiner however, he works for the company selling the product!
Since writing my last post I have spoken to another CFI who complained
that he had encountered yet more US trained pilots who cant work the radio, and need a further 10 or so hours.
Ask arround at a few schools, its quite common. There are always a few who don't need any additional training, but the majority do!
Not many potential students know that a US Instructor does not have to attend an Instructor Course like their European counterparts. As a result, the methods of instruction vary widely.
I would not wish to deter anyone from learning in the US, I have flown with many people who have, some very good, some terrible but the main point is that experience tells me you can't produce many good pilots in 21 days!
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Noggin,
Your experience (and that of your CFI friend) of US trained pupils requiring 15-20 hours of PPL conversion and 10+ hours required to learn the radios must make your employers very happy.
I take it that such severe failings of US based training orgs are promptly being reported to, and investigated the CAA??
Your experience (and that of your CFI friend) of US trained pupils requiring 15-20 hours of PPL conversion and 10+ hours required to learn the radios must make your employers very happy.
I take it that such severe failings of US based training orgs are promptly being reported to, and investigated the CAA??
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He does indeed.
Most UK PPL students spend a year or so getting their PPL, due to a mixture of
bad weather,
poor quality of instruction,
instructors not turning up,
planes being away,
planes "going tech" (broken),
a walk-in "trial lesson" (e.g. somebody's birthday treat) getting priority over prebooked students,
having to save up the money for each lesson,
being unable to learn to fly
lack of technical understanding of flying and/or navigation
etc.
Somebody who has passed their writtens and then does the lot in 21 days will - given the same standard of instruction, etc - usually absorb more than somebody who has taken a year.
There will always be exceptions (last 2 items in the above list) but they cannot be used against the general principle. I know of a number of perpetual students in the 150hr / £20,000 bracket and some of them are bound to turn up in Florida but that doesn't mean anything.
Most UK PPL students spend a year or so getting their PPL, due to a mixture of
bad weather,
poor quality of instruction,
instructors not turning up,
planes being away,
planes "going tech" (broken),
a walk-in "trial lesson" (e.g. somebody's birthday treat) getting priority over prebooked students,
having to save up the money for each lesson,
being unable to learn to fly
lack of technical understanding of flying and/or navigation
etc.
Somebody who has passed their writtens and then does the lot in 21 days will - given the same standard of instruction, etc - usually absorb more than somebody who has taken a year.
There will always be exceptions (last 2 items in the above list) but they cannot be used against the general principle. I know of a number of perpetual students in the 150hr / £20,000 bracket and some of them are bound to turn up in Florida but that doesn't mean anything.
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haha nice one Noggin
"there is no guarantee you will be any good after 3 weeks" but after 6 you are the next ice-man!
obviously using the radio is different to that in america, but that is an easy thing to get the hang of.
doing a ppl in 21 days is like any other licence. you get to licence issue standard in that time, and really start to learn once you are on your own and gaining experience after. I got my motorbike licence a year back, and looking back at that i had no idea how to ride when i past my test compared to now. same with flying.
when you learn to fly in 21 days you never have that refresher part of the lesson where you go over what you did earlier, as it's still fresh in your head. Probably why most people in the UK take 60 hours (which isnt true anyway!) they spend that extra time going over stuff they did in a lesson weeks back! a bit of a waste to me.
you are either made to fly or not, it makes no difference if you are in USA or UK, as long as the examiner is good you'll be as good as you can be.
"there is no guarantee you will be any good after 3 weeks" but after 6 you are the next ice-man!
obviously using the radio is different to that in america, but that is an easy thing to get the hang of.
doing a ppl in 21 days is like any other licence. you get to licence issue standard in that time, and really start to learn once you are on your own and gaining experience after. I got my motorbike licence a year back, and looking back at that i had no idea how to ride when i past my test compared to now. same with flying.
when you learn to fly in 21 days you never have that refresher part of the lesson where you go over what you did earlier, as it's still fresh in your head. Probably why most people in the UK take 60 hours (which isnt true anyway!) they spend that extra time going over stuff they did in a lesson weeks back! a bit of a waste to me.
you are either made to fly or not, it makes no difference if you are in USA or UK, as long as the examiner is good you'll be as good as you can be.
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I hope the standards are not too bad? I'm going to San Diego in just over two weeks!!
I picked the wrong time of year to learn in the UK, I've had 8 lessons cancelled in the last month due to weather.
TJF97
I picked the wrong time of year to learn in the UK, I've had 8 lessons cancelled in the last month due to weather.
TJF97
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Just picked myself up from laughing at Mr Noggins post!
I am sure a few schools will ask for a 10hr conversion - but they are the ones you want to stay away from!!! Find a school which is prepared to give you an unbiased checkride and go to them. There are schools that will look down their nose at you because you learnt in the US and didnt give them your hard earned money. They are very easy to spot though and you will soon know when to about turn!
I have undertake 1hr checkouts and been signed off no problems by Bournemouth, White Waltham, Enstone and Sheffield - without 15-20 hours retaining!!!! So the training in the US cant be that bad.
You will always get bad schools but there again you will in the UK as well. Posters making sweeping statements like Noggins either dont know what they are on about or need to get their heads from up their backside
I am sure a few schools will ask for a 10hr conversion - but they are the ones you want to stay away from!!! Find a school which is prepared to give you an unbiased checkride and go to them. There are schools that will look down their nose at you because you learnt in the US and didnt give them your hard earned money. They are very easy to spot though and you will soon know when to about turn!
I have undertake 1hr checkouts and been signed off no problems by Bournemouth, White Waltham, Enstone and Sheffield - without 15-20 hours retaining!!!! So the training in the US cant be that bad.
You will always get bad schools but there again you will in the UK as well. Posters making sweeping statements like Noggins either dont know what they are on about or need to get their heads from up their backside
Copied from this thread:
http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthr...hreadid=181756
Here's a little gem;
If you have completed your JAA written exams at home,
Hold a JAA medical,
You can go to any school in the USA, train for the US PPL, pass the checkride with a US examiner, then go and find a JAA examiner who can do a conversion-skill test and an RT test.
Leaves you with both FAA and JAA licenses and no need to go to a JAA certified school.
Any questions PM please and I can give you more details.
http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthr...hreadid=181756
Here's a little gem;
If you have completed your JAA written exams at home,
Hold a JAA medical,
You can go to any school in the USA, train for the US PPL, pass the checkride with a US examiner, then go and find a JAA examiner who can do a conversion-skill test and an RT test.
Leaves you with both FAA and JAA licenses and no need to go to a JAA certified school.
Any questions PM please and I can give you more details.
In theory you are quite right however you can't convert a licence you haven't got. I believe it takes about 3 months for the FAA certificate to be issued! A temporary certificate airman is not valid for conversion! If the CAA refuse to issue on the basis of a test conducted before the licence is issued, then you have wasted a lot of money. In any event you can fly in the UK on the FAA licence so why bother to try and convert it in the USA?
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Conversion as such may not be needed here.
There is no reason why a particular training flight cannot count towards more than one license/rating.
For example, you could do a dual flight with an instructor (JAA instructor, G-reg plane perhaps) and that one flight, if over 250nm, at night, IFR, under ATS direction, ending with two T&Gs and one landing (all 3 IAPs being of a different type) will be good for
1. FAA PPL night requirement
2. FAA IR x/c requirement
3. JAA PPL renewal
4. JAA IMCR renewal
and probably a few other things to do with night currency. All at the same time, on the same flight!
There are issues with instructor ratings; in the above example he would need to be a JAA instructor as well as an FAA CFII.
I've been offered the above by a few people in the USA, for doing the FAA standalone PPL and the FAA IR both at the same time. (Obviously this is workable only if the pilot already has instrument skills under say a UK license; a first time PPL could not usefully absorb the IR training).
So there is no reason why a student could not come out with both a JAA PPL and an FAA PPL at the same time. The training for the two is slightly different (extra stuff in the FAA PPL, including extra instrument navigation, and the night qualification is mandatory under FAA) but it could be combined easily enough.
What one cannot do, AFAIK, is train for the IMCR and the JAA IR at the same time (i.e. after the 15hrs decide one doesn't really want to do the IR, and settle for the IMCR instead, or after 15hrs decide to continue to the full IR).
There is no reason why a particular training flight cannot count towards more than one license/rating.
For example, you could do a dual flight with an instructor (JAA instructor, G-reg plane perhaps) and that one flight, if over 250nm, at night, IFR, under ATS direction, ending with two T&Gs and one landing (all 3 IAPs being of a different type) will be good for
1. FAA PPL night requirement
2. FAA IR x/c requirement
3. JAA PPL renewal
4. JAA IMCR renewal
and probably a few other things to do with night currency. All at the same time, on the same flight!
There are issues with instructor ratings; in the above example he would need to be a JAA instructor as well as an FAA CFII.
I've been offered the above by a few people in the USA, for doing the FAA standalone PPL and the FAA IR both at the same time. (Obviously this is workable only if the pilot already has instrument skills under say a UK license; a first time PPL could not usefully absorb the IR training).
So there is no reason why a student could not come out with both a JAA PPL and an FAA PPL at the same time. The training for the two is slightly different (extra stuff in the FAA PPL, including extra instrument navigation, and the night qualification is mandatory under FAA) but it could be combined easily enough.
What one cannot do, AFAIK, is train for the IMCR and the JAA IR at the same time (i.e. after the 15hrs decide one doesn't really want to do the IR, and settle for the IMCR instead, or after 15hrs decide to continue to the full IR).
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As a newbie to the forum and someone who is only just embarking on the road to my PPL,I follow these threads with great interest.
I have looked at the options available for getting my training at a reasonable price and what would be available in flying opportunities once qualified.
The US option looked attractive but then the costs of the flights there and back had to be factored in.
My local area flying clubs also comment on the level of competence of US qualified pilots and also comment that after a check flight, many require further training before being allowed to fly in club aircraft.
There is also the tale of one particular student who insisted on using the brakes to slow or hold the aircraft instead of throttling back and despite several requests to desist, would not and cancelled his check flight.
Needless to say, he didnt get to fly any club aircraft.
Now as stated, I am a newbie so dont really know if it is the clubs trying to keep business at home or genuine concern at the competence levels of US pilots but i have seen sinilar types of comments on various flight school websites across the UK.
Taking into account all the information available, I am staying local
I have looked at the options available for getting my training at a reasonable price and what would be available in flying opportunities once qualified.
The US option looked attractive but then the costs of the flights there and back had to be factored in.
My local area flying clubs also comment on the level of competence of US qualified pilots and also comment that after a check flight, many require further training before being allowed to fly in club aircraft.
Basically, on what we have already seen, they leave a lot to be desired. They are very much like a sausage factory. Generally, they last for three weeks and that is not long enough to teach anyone to fly even if they were straight out of university and soak everything up first time. If you consider the cost of American training plus the additional cost of settling down in UK airspace and getting to grips with the fickle UK weather, then, in our opinion you would be better off training in the UK and taking a more leisurely time over it. The quality of the training in the UK would be well worth it particularly if you were intending to go on for a JAR professional licence in the future. There are several problems associated with US training. The first is sitting JAR exams on JAR air law in the US and then having to fly a US registered aircraft in accordance with US law in the US!! I hope this makes sense. If not, we will be pleased to explain it to you. We have had several US qualified pilots with UK licences who have needed over four hours dual training before letting them loose on our aircraft
There is also the tale of one particular student who insisted on using the brakes to slow or hold the aircraft instead of throttling back and despite several requests to desist, would not and cancelled his check flight.
Needless to say, he didnt get to fly any club aircraft.
Now as stated, I am a newbie so dont really know if it is the clubs trying to keep business at home or genuine concern at the competence levels of US pilots but i have seen sinilar types of comments on various flight school websites across the UK.
Taking into account all the information available, I am staying local