Gatwick North terminal - not my aisle!!

[lowcostdolly]

F3G Hiya

Sorry I must have completely misread your post. I thourght you said you had taken a penknife through security without detection not a broken bottle. Please tell me they didn't miss that !

With all due respect you could seriously injure somebody with a 5cm blade if that was what you took? I think that is why they, along with glass bottles and any other sharp objects, should be declared/detected/confiscated prior to boarding. That is a shared responsibility between the pax, check in staff and security and everyone plays an equal part.

That also applies to liquids as well nowadays yet you seem to have got quite a lot of your liquids on board without detection and on several occasions. I hope when you flagged that up to the appropriate peeps you were assured extra training would be provided to the personnel concerned?

I totally agree with the last point of your response re objects being the focus and not intentions. All I would ask anyone here is how could anyone possibly screen intentions? Questions I don't think would do it as the bad guys and gals would just lie and provide the appropriate positive responses.

I don't know enough about profiling to comment and btw who is Danny? I am fairly new to pprune so may have missed something here that more experienced peeps are aware of?

[Final 3 Greens]

Hi LCD

All I would ask anyone here is how could anyone possibly screen intentions?

El Al’s passenger screening system, established in the early 1970s, relies on psychological profiling techniques backed up with high-technology equipment. This system has been highly effective: the last successful hijacking of an El Al jet was in 1968, when Palestinian terrorists diverted a flight from Rome to Algiers.34 Whereas the United States gives priority to screening baggage rather than people, Israel’s security model aims at ferreting out individuals with terrorist intentions. This profiling process relies on access to intelligence and careful observation of would-be passengers.

Another situation in which profiling has proven effective is in the case of a “duped passenger”—a naïve individual who has been manipulated by terrorists to carry an explosive device on board an aircraft. In 1986, Anne-Marie Murphy, a 32-year-old Irish woman, was interviewed at Heathrow Airport before boarding an El Al flight from London to Tel Aviv. When asked the purpose of her trip, she said that she was traveling to Israel to see her Jordanian fiancé, the father of her unborn child. Two factors made the interviewer suspicious: it was unusual for a pregnant young woman to travel alone, and although Ms. Murphy said she planned to stay in Israel for a week, she did not check any luggage and had only one carry-on bag. Further questioning revealed that she planned to stay at the Tel Aviv Hilton and to pay with a credit card. When the card was examined, it proved to be an ID that allowed her only to cash checks in the United Kingdom. At this point, Ms. Murphy was declared a suspicious traveler and subjected to greater scrutiny. Her carry-on bag was emptied, weighed, and found to be unusually heavy. X-ray examination revealed a false bottom containing a grayish material that proved to be plastic explosive. Unbeknownst to Ms. Murphy, her fiancé was a Palestinian terrorist who had concealed in her bag a bomb designed to detonate in flight, with the intent of killing all 375 passengers on board.

For example, when Richard Reid (the future “shoe bomber”) decided to fly in July 2001 from Amsterdam to Israel, allegedly to check out terrorist targets, El Al security personnel selected him for profiling and subjected him to a full security check from head to toe (including an X-ray scan of his shoes) that showed he carried no bomb or weapon. Although Reid was allowed to board the plane, El Al remained suspicious and made sure he was sitting near an armed sky marshal, who was instructed to keep a close watch on him.

reference is Strategies for Countering Terrorism – Lessons from the Israeli Experience COIN Central


Danny is an airline captain, who (with Rob) founded PPrune and for various reasons is pretty up to speed on this type of profiling.

By the way, how to you intend to confiscate the duty free bottles that are the potential lethal objects I was refering to?

[lowcostdolly]

Thanks F3G for all that info.....I will read it properly on the standby's I have coming up

I've had the EL AL security experience quite a few years ago. I seem to remember having to turn up hours (and I do mean hours) before my flight. I was greeted by extremely surly security officers but they were meticulous with their procedures. I also remember having to wait in line for quite a long time for them to carry these out. That is pretty simular to the experiences I've had in the USA more recently.....surly officers barking out orders, long lines to clear loads of seperate checks.

I've not heard anyone complain about this because of the threat levels presumably but the minute it hits our shores we are up in arms. Why should we be any different...the threat is just as real isn't it?

Granted there is room for improvement within BAA which you have demonstrated really well by being able to take your knife through intentionally or not.......personally I think that is unbelievable but I'm sure you flagged it up to the right peeps. I also think it's a lot more worrying than the politeness/organisational issues which started this thread originally.

Just one more thing before I leave this thread. I really must dust my crystal ball more often! I didn't know you were refering to duty free bottles because you didn't tell me. Exactly my point re intentions.....nobody knows. I thought we were still back at check in with the offending knife/bottle and the large notice telling all pax they shouldn't be in hand luggage......

Re said "lethal weapon" on board I would do exactly what I always do with any potentially brewing incident involving alchohol.....confiscate the offending article until it's owner disembarks. As CC I have the power to do that under the air navigation orders. The alarm bells usually start ringing on this one when the loud groups of stags and hens board and then order 20 cokes!!! These are the peeps who carefully place their vodka bottles under the seat in front so they can then add their alchohol and think we don't know. Handled early and properly it shouldn't escalate to problems later on. Hope that answers your question.

[west lakes]

Though not by any means a "frequent flyer" I travel through LGW (N) a couple of times a year.
Never had any problems with security, despite carrying medical sharps always declared, always advise I have a Doctor's note (and NEVER been asked for it), the only delays I have encountered in security are from fellow passengers who don't understand/read the advice on display.
Never had the surly types referred too, is it because I tend to be pleasent to them & treat them as human beings?
To be honest the only delay I ever had was caused by check-in at the Loco that took over GB Airways.

[Final 3 Greens]

Improvised Weapon, bottle, Mk1

I thought we were still back at check in with the offending knife/bottle and the large notice telling all pax they shouldn't be in hand luggage......

1. Buy litre of spirits in glass bottle at tax free shop
   Board airraft, stow bottle
2. When ready to make mischief, smash bottle against solid object
3. Run riot slashing everyone in range

Now do you see why it is the intention that is the concern, not the object?; millions of people carry glass bottles on flights every year, I am sure that loads of people inadvertently take knives on, too.

BTW, a businessman I know accidentally left a knife in his bag found it and declared it to the scanners at a well known UK airport.

His reward for his honesty was to have them call the police. He was prosecuted, earned a criminal record and was given community service.

And you ask me if I told them when I found I had left mine in the case? What do you think?

[lowcostdolly]

What do I think ???

Honestly F3G you really wouldn't want to know what I think about what you and your aquaintence did.

You and presumably your businessman colleague are frequent flyers.....well aquainted with the procedures when flying as your posts frequently show.

In an earlier post you said you had "inadvertently" taken a knife on board. This was to show (I think) that security could be beaten. Good for you .....you demonstrated that.

However now it seems according to your post below you knew you had a knife with you because you say you found it. You therefore intentionally took that knife on board.

I'm also confused as to how neither of you could not know you were carrying a knife given:

• You both would have confirmed you packed your own bags and nobody tampered with them at check in.
• You would have confirmed you were carrying no sharp items when questioned. If you packed your own bags then you would know what you were carrying.
• There are notices right under your nose at check in re dangerous goods to remind you
• If you/your colleague found the knife between check in and security you could have handed it to one of the many armed Police Officers which patrol all airports for safe disposal prior to getting to security. That would have been the responsible thing to do.

So your friend got arrested at security because the scanners picked up a knife.......security are doing there job then. The scanners do not pick up intentions and in todays climate the officers have to assume the worse.

A few years ago I dealt with an incident on board involving a 4 year old boy and his toy gun. Clearly he didn't have any intentions but around 15 other adults sitted around him didn't care. They just cared it was on board at all.

What I think doesn't matter . What I know is that the law was broken. You both took a potentially lethal weapon to an airport and you then took it on board a plane. You didn't get caught.....lucky you. Your friend faced the consequences when he was caught.

It's lucky you were not stopped at customs the other end for a random search. They might have called the police as well had they found your knife.

Over in the questions forum there is a thread on dangerous goods and asking for people to highlight incidences......you may be able to have some input which would be helpful to the poster.

[clareprop]

So your friend got arrested at security because the scanners picked up a knife.......

Your friend faced the consequences when he was caught.

Sweetiepeep, With your eye's screwed tight and your little fists bunched up, you didn't read what F3G said. Have another look..

[Final 3 Greens]

Lowcost dolly

You said.....

Granted there is room for improvement within BAA which you have demonstrated really well by being able to take your knife through intentionally or not.......personally I think that is unbelievable but I'm sure you flagged it up to the right peeps.

and I replied.....

BTW, a businessman I know accidentally left a knife in his bag found it and declared it to the scanners at a well known UK airport.

His reward for his honesty was to have them call the police. He was prosecuted, earned a criminal record and was given community service.

And you ask me if I told them when I found I had left mine in the case? What do you think?

1) I found the knife some days after I had arrived home - your statement did not specify the action being dependent on when I found it

2) Here is a definition of 'inadvertent" from the Oxford Dictionary

inadvertent
· adj. not resulting from or achieved through deliberate planning.
– DERIVATIVES inadvertence n. inadvertency n. inadvertently adv.
– ORIGIN C17: from in-1 + L. advertent-, advertere ‘turn the mind to’.

I am very pleased that you dealt with the four years old, who obviously had a clear intention of having some fun; tut, tut.....

[Skipness One Echo]

BTW, a businessman I know accidentally left a knife in his bag found it and declared it to the scanners at a well known UK airport.

The sheer amount of regulation in the modern world takes no account of intent in the way that a criminal proceeding used to have to. It's lazy and lowest common denominator where we're all likely murderers. There is no common sense applied as the people applying the rules were not employed to have any and are permitted no discretion.

[lowcostdolly]

Clareprop.....sweetheart!

Yes I did read what he/she put....all the way through the patronising posts. It's quite clear that he/she thinks it's OK to take a knife on board an aircraft because h/she thinks it won't cause as much damage as a jagged bottle

If we want to apply that rationale then the whole aircraft is a lethal weapon which can cause much more damage than a jagged bottle..... sadly demonstrated by 9/11. Security didn't pick up the intentions then did they? Perhaps we should just ban air travel altogether if we don't agree with the procedures that are in place now to try and risk manage potential/actual threats.

Apparently, said businessman declared the knife at the scanners....don't buy it I'm afraid. If you pack your own bags which you would have to declare then you know if you have a knife in it.

Also F3G now says he found his said knife "days afterwards"......above rationale applies here as well. Packed own bag and declared same truthfully to check in? Then you know whats in it.

Skipness makes a valid point regarding " being treated as likely murders". That's exactly how aircrew (as well as pax) are treated everyday until we prove otherwise with the contents of our bags. We also have to prove we are not likely to be pre employment in order to get an airside pass which gives us a valid reason to be airside by virtue of our employment. Some may argue this is right as we have far more access airside and more frequently than the pax do. I keep saying it but nobody understand this.....you cannot screen intentions. That applies to crew and pax and BAA have to act accordingly.

The pax valid reason for being airside is demonstrated by their boarding pass. Anyone remember the thread and fuss recently re having to produce that....

We have to declare sharp objects etc and we are not allowed to take knives on board either. There is no valid reason for anyone, crew or pax, to have a knife in their bag when travelling unless you have special dispensation. MOD flights have this sometimes with weapons.

If I remember this thread started because some pax were disgruntled by the way they percieved BAA treats them. If you turn up at security thinking you know better and are above their procedures (which does come across in this thread) then I'm afraid this will probably show at security and you will reap what you sow. That happens to crew as well and is why I am polite and couteous at all times to them.

BTW F3G I didn't deal with the 4 year old little boy who did just want to have fun!! I dealt with the 10+ tantruming "adults" around him who couldn't recognise the little ones intentions on this. Like some of your post perhaps I didn't make this clear

We all have different insights,experiences and views on this subject. I think the adult thing would be just for all of us to agree to differ but obey the rules and be nice anyway.

[Xeque]

lowcostdolly

"Methinks she protesteth too much"
Give it a rest. The whole thing is absurd. We can't help it if you don't see it that way too.
For ordinary, law abiding people who just want to get from point A to point B in the easiest and least unpleasant manner, today's government inspired awfulness is, simply, inexcusable.
We can still choose our airlines based on whether we want to be ritually abused, simply ripped off or (perhaps) when there are are still some airlines that actually care, we like the way we are treated by them.
But having done that we still have to run the gauntlet (in the UK at any rate) of systems and procedures inspired by fools and administered by cretins who have no right to be anywhere close to real people.
A trip through any far eastern or asia-pacific airport where the same security considerations apply, will amply demonstrate this.
As I have said more than once in these forums, I am (these days) prepared to arrive into a UK major airport but for departures I take the Eurostar to a convenient European airport.
I do not need the sh1t dealt out by security personnel at UK airports so I don't accept it.

[lowcostdolly]

Xeque..... Perhaps you need to attend ground zero regularly to realise why somebody/anybody might feel strongly on issues in a thread such as this.

Airline security these days has a lot of significance to some people more than others and for different reasons.

[clareprop]

Calm down darlin'. We all understand the issue.

[Skipness One Echo]

Airline security these days has a lot of significance to some people more than others and for different reasons.

Can you answer the point as to why the UK experience is a lot less professional than certain other nations? Perhaps they are just incompetent foreigners or Xeque is right and we could learn something from the way they do things.

Once (misplaced ) ideas are planted institutionally they become endemic, free from rationale and logic and take generations to remove. Think of the Met stopping one of their own community agents over 100 times ( he was black ). Think of the mad ideas we have of testing every five year old child, and again at six and seven and so on...... Once the madness is in place, it takes on a life of it's own alas.

Quantify : number of passengers vs number of individuals with intent to casue death in flight = tiny minority. Clarion call of "It only takes one to get through." add in a dose of rushed legislation and poorly thought out rules and the result is the aircraft commander cannot be trusted to take a yoghurt pot through security and onto a flight deck where he sits nexy to a fire axe.

Two ears one mouth I think is the expression.