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Old 12th Aug 2017, 08:18   #61 (permalink)
 
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Folks,
All very sad, and more than anything, a reflection of the parlous state of light aviation in Australia today.

Even more so, if we reflect on the "good old days" when NATFLY at Narromine over an Easter would attract over a 1000 aircraft, more than a third of them "conventional" GA aircraft, despite NATFLY being the annual gathering of RAOz (nee AUF).

Indeed, on one occasion, on the Saturday afternoon, I personally counted just under 600 aircraft on the ground at one time, almost 200 being GA aircraft. With swarms of aircraft in the air.

There is plenty of blame to share around, that such a gathering now seems impossible in Australia. This current debacle is just the current manifestation.

Short sighted local councils, various "alphabet soup" organisations lacking effective imagination and ambition, financially debilitated industry players due to to the decline of the sector, and, of course, our friends CASA spreading "Joy thru' Enforcement", scaring flying visitors away (just like recent Avalons) with rampant ramp checks.

Tootle pip!!
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Old 12th Aug 2017, 11:16   #62 (permalink)
 
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Your highlighted words are the entire reason RAAus folk never fly in. I have spoken to hundreds over time and they all say even if i do the right thing i just don't want the hassle.

My prediction is this will be canned by early next week. I am joining the dots and many here will know my dot generator is likely to be on spec. I may be surprised though.
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Old 12th Aug 2017, 21:47   #63 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
even if I do the right thing i just don't want the hassle.
It ain't just the RAA guys Jabba. A lot of GA pilots feel the the same.

It's like when you have a cop car following you. You try to do the right thing but you are not comfortable because if they want to be nasty there are too many infringements that are subjective. eg number plate too dull, tyre looks worn, not keeping far enough left etc.

With airshows it's easier and more comfortable to stay home and spend the fuel money on half a carton and a good red. To my less kind friends who will say I must be a bad ass to think this way it may be of interest that I have been ramped twice in some 6,000 hours and got off scot free.Both ramping episodes were not at airshows.
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Old 12th Aug 2017, 22:18   #64 (permalink)
 
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A ramp inspection is a thinly disguised fishing operation. it has nothing to do with safety at all. i will not fly anywhere if there is a high probability of a ramp inspection at the destination.

I am also questioning my own decision to fly at all. Every two years there is the need for the bFR, the medical and the ASIC that i have to justify.
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Old 12th Aug 2017, 22:49   #65 (permalink)
 
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CASA ramp checking at Airshow sums up CASA as an organisation - stupid and counterproductive.

Last edited by rjtjrt; 12th Aug 2017 at 23:13. Reason: Typo
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 00:46   #66 (permalink)
 
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As I posted at the link below the FAA don't do blanket ramp checks at airshows. They know that they lose more respect by heavy handed enforcement.

Avalon & ramp checks
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 01:10   #67 (permalink)
 
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mcoates, not involved, but what I was told when inquired of the EAA at one of the shows. On the basis of your info the EAA rep didn't know what he was talking about. I know not.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 01:40   #68 (permalink)
 
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Reading all that and the 2 FB posts, I came to the conclusion that OzRunways initially stumped up what it considered a reasonable amount of cash as a commercial decision for this event.

Later even knowing that around $30,000 (or more) was not a good commercial investment for this event, they agreed to pay and allow the event to continue (this is admirable in my opinion).



A deal was done to sweeten this large cash agreement.

One of the competitors of OzRunways was declined a free lunch.



So they carried on until the lunch cancelled for everyone.


OzRunways decided to spread the food around to various outlets- now that's a very kind plan.

Does AvPlan cover Ecuador?
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 02:39   #69 (permalink)
 
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Will MilFlyer be along shortly complaining about no lunch on offer?
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 04:19   #70 (permalink)
 
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Re RAMP checks at Airshows.
I am not sure if it was in the days or Mick Toller or Bruce Byron (or maybe earlier) but one of them made a statement back then that RAMP checks would never be conducted at Airshows or similar events.
We need the new DAS to come out with a similar statement. There is nothing to gain and lots to loose as discussed above.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 05:54   #71 (permalink)
 
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Spot on megan military folk are trained in that environment and while Milflyer might fly an aircraft it does not resemble the real World flying aircraft environment.

It is impossible for any airline or aviation company to conduct business like the military do and survive.

But they seem to miss this reality of life stuff that happens in the real World, Some airlines are sacking staff for taking a catering sandwich while the military counter parts go to the food hall and just fill the plates and complain about some part of the massive high quality selection of free food (or a minute contribution they need to make that may buy the little square of butter).

I'll put $50 up Milflyer - the event wont go ahead, you said it will.

Don't say you were not offered a seat at this table.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 06:11   #72 (permalink)
 
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SAAA email suggests the event will go ahead.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 06:13   #73 (permalink)
 
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Maybe they just don't have the funds to cancel it, thus can it still be called an event?
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 08:00   #74 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
SAAA email suggests the event will go ahead.

Disingenuous email of the highest order. If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.


My speculation based on knowing the form of the people involved. The apparent author of the email is the alleged culprit of all the drama, and now he wants the chapters to stump up their money to bail out the national body from his stuff ups.

I could be very wrong. Watch this space. My bet is it will be cancelled.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 13:25   #75 (permalink)
 
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My understanding is that the SAAA begging letter was only to individual members. We had our Chapter AGM here today and there was no correspondence 'on-the-table' from SAAA in respect of subsidising AV. So, no correspondence meant no discussion. Off the record of course, comments were scathing. The mood was not one of generosity to SAAA. happy days,
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 22:25   #76 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Band a Lot View Post
Spot on megan military folk are trained in that environment and while Milflyer might fly an aircraft it does not resemble the real World flying aircraft environment.

But they seem to miss this reality of life stuff that happens in the real World, Some airlines are sacking staff for taking a catering sandwich while the military counter parts go to the food hall and just fill the plates and complain about some part of the massive high quality selection of free food (or a minute contribution they need to make that may buy the little square of butter).
Haha, bitter much?

Real world? I've flown in both "worlds" and to be honest your "real world" (as in non-military) is more protected and shielded from the real stuff!
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 23:26   #77 (permalink)
 
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Most in the real world paid for their flying training and remember they jobs they had to do to pay for that and the meals they missed in the process.

I never hear of a 777 captains applying for a military jobs, I guess they would not be accepted as it is a different World and to hard/old to retrain.

I also and from experience have noted that "most" ex-military personal have little to no understanding of costs, Milflyer has shown an example of this by his comment the show will go on. Sorry but money does not just grow on trees - someone needs to find that money or the fact is it is impossible to go on.


If the Australian government reduced its defence budget to $0, that will mean we will not have an Army, Navy or Air force. This is not because our military folk are bad or anything but, even if they turn up for work for free where will the fuel come from? It does not grow on trees, paper comes from trees but how will you cut them down with no axes?

In a World of Sponsorship it is tough in many industries, GA being one of them.

* Insurance
*Advertising
*Legal fees
*Security
*Seat Hire
*PA system hire
*Stage hire
*Printing (like programs)
*Toilet hire
*Rubbish bins and removal
*Generator hire
*Communication/s
*Transport and Accommodation

Are a few things that spring to mind that may need pre payment, some maybe recoverable during the event like selling programs. Some need to be paid or have been even if the event is rained out or cancelled.

While a fly in can be done to acceptable levels by some dedicated volunteers, a large event requires some professional assistance. When paying labour in Australia $30K does not go far.

So I guess I am just saying I think Milflyer has a shallow view on this particular event that is in a real fight to continue, and there are several bets that are on - it wont continue.

On a side note if money was growing on trees at AvPlan one would expect they would have happily been a reasonable size sponsor, so I am guessing they have a strict advertising budget and need to get the best bang for it.
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Old 14th Aug 2017, 02:32   #78 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
mcoates, not involved, but what I was told when inquired of the EAA at one of the shows. On the basis of your info the EAA rep didn't know what he was talking about. I know not.
I have just finished my 20th year as an exhibitor and whilst I don't like to complain about the EAA and AirVenture it is set up totally as an moneymaking opportunity. I would use an example of A&W that sell burgers and other things at the event. All of their cash registers and eftpos machines are connected directly to the EAA. The transaction that they produce comes out on AirVenture invoice and then directly from this comes a 40% commission on their sales as well as them having to pay for a site. The EAA actually have people that wander around and spend some time at each site discreetly making sure that every customer gets a receipt and that every transaction goes through the payment system. If someone starts skimming for example ice creams on a hot day and that is a lot of income lost by the EAA so they have people wandering around discreetly looking at the operations of the different food stalls. The cost of "winning" this food outlet location is not inexpensive either with site fees of over $20,000 just for a small 10 m x 10 m site. The EAA also have food inspectors which wander around randomly for the publics protection and they check that each food vendor is preparing food with gloves and they even use a temperature probe to check some of the items have been kept correctly stored in either cold storage or when they are cooked. They do this for the protection of the public and to avoid getting sued if somebody gets sick they can at least say well we check this site 4 times on that day and everything was in order. Another thing that just came to mind about restrictions for vendor's is that A&W is only allowed to sell softserve ice cream, they cannot sell packaged ice cream but then you will go a little bit further down the road and there will be a stand selling packaged ice cream. The packaged ice cream stands are completely run by the EAA. A company, let's say Peter's ice cream will again seek exclusive arrangements for packaged ice cream and sell a drumstick for $0.40 wholesale to the EAA and they in turn turn around and sell it for $3.50 retail to the public. This is again a commercial arrangement which Peter's ice cream have entered into with the EAA to boost their product and profitability.

As somebody said earlier you cannot buy a Coca-Cola product at AirVenture. Again this is a commercial consideration like a sponsorship package where the manufacturers of Pepsi-based products may pay $100,000 upfront to have their products sold exclusively. On a good year with hot temperatures I am sure they would make a killing, on a cold year the returns may be so so.

It is not unusual for any event like this to have preferred and exclusive supplier agreements. It is part of business. If someone goes to air venture and says that I sell a product and I would like to be able to sell/exhibit that product exclusively and here is my money transfer for XXX dollars then the deal gets done. It is nothing different to OzKosh or whatever our local event is being called at the moment.
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Old 14th Aug 2017, 02:46   #79 (permalink)
 
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I forgot to mention also. As an exhibitor we are only allowed to give away 50 baseball caps for free to any of our customers without specific branding. If we want to give away more than 50 caps then we have to pay the EAA fee for each free cap we give away.

The idea of this is if all of the vendor's are giving away free caps then the EAA won't sell any of theirs. If you want a away more than 50 caps then you must pay the amount that the EAA will be losing their sales so they may charge you $5 for every cap that you give away above 50....

Same with a party at your site. Every year we host the Pod-A-Pooloosa on Wednesday night before the nighttime you show. This is a get together of media, pod casters and others selling the message that aviation is great to be involved with. To celebrate this event we give away lots of pizzas and soda to the hungry media before they head to the night airshow. All of this must be purchased through the EAA, we cannot ring the local pizza shop and have them deliver and you guessed it, it costs a lot of money, probably 3 times more than going direct to the pizza shop. And, you guessed it Papa John's is the exclusive pizza supplier to EAA air venture
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Old 14th Aug 2017, 05:32   #80 (permalink)
 
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mcoates,

EAA getting their cut of the food at Airventure is very different to what was going to happen here. It would be like Cessna being a sponsor and all other aircraft manufacturers being banned from attending or Lycoming being a sponsor and rotax being banned.
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