What costs does/should your employer cover?
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With all this talk of awards for employees, all the legal protection for employees, unions, government assistance etc. etc. yet there are a lot of cases of the business owner/employer who works 70 hour weeks, do not get annual leave pay or sick pay or superannuation payments and risk the loss of the houses and other assets if things go wrong and earn less than minimum wage, can't get a personal loan because they are self employed etc. etc.
I know in Australia we are Labour orientated but how come in todays society is it OK for a small business owner to struggle so much and often treated so negatively? If we all gave up our businesses to work for a large multi-national employer what the hell would happen?
An award for small business owners maybe? If they receive less than the award wage then the difference is made up from reduced taxes, rates and levies? Would be good but can't imagine it happening.
All through history there have been employers who exploit workers and workers (usually through unions) who end up crippling businesses, the majority try do do the right thing but legislation has come about with the intent to stop the bad operators but with the consequence that a lot less good businesses will employ someone these days.
I know in Australia we are Labour orientated but how come in todays society is it OK for a small business owner to struggle so much and often treated so negatively? If we all gave up our businesses to work for a large multi-national employer what the hell would happen?
An award for small business owners maybe? If they receive less than the award wage then the difference is made up from reduced taxes, rates and levies? Would be good but can't imagine it happening.
All through history there have been employers who exploit workers and workers (usually through unions) who end up crippling businesses, the majority try do do the right thing but legislation has come about with the intent to stop the bad operators but with the consequence that a lot less good businesses will employ someone these days.
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With all this talk of awards for employees, all the legal protection for employees, unions, government assistance etc. etc. yet there are a lot of cases of the business owner/employer who works 70 hour weeks, do not get annual leave pay or sick pay or superannuation payments and risk the loss of the houses and other assets if things go wrong and earn less than minimum wage, can't get a personal loan because they are self employed etc. etc.
I imagine that could happen as a company is going under, but surely wouldn't run in this manner year in year out.
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70 hrs would be a common thing for many, they will have a week off (9 days over a double weekend) but still log in and make up for before and after that short break.
The minimum wage for a "manager" would be around $97,000. * note that is the wage figure.
My bet is you have bumped into many over the years. Just don't know what happens behind the scenes.
The minimum wage for a "manager" would be around $97,000. * note that is the wage figure.
My bet is you have bumped into many over the years. Just don't know what happens behind the scenes.
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70 hrs would be a common thing for many, they will have a week off (9 days over a double weekend) but still log in and make up for before and after that short break.
The minimum wage for a "manager" would be around $97,000. * note that is the wage figure.
My bet is you have bumped into many over the years. Just don't know what happens behind the scenes.
The minimum wage for a "manager" would be around $97,000. * note that is the wage figure.
My bet is you have bumped into many over the years. Just don't know what happens behind the scenes.
Are we talking about owners or managers here?
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Find me the owners minimum wage figure!
I used manager as that is part of the job description of a "owner"
So stop with the smart stuff - you never will know what happens before 9 and after 5 but expect it magically be a void.
You will have meet may Flyboy, many!
I used manager as that is part of the job description of a "owner"
So stop with the smart stuff - you never will know what happens before 9 and after 5 but expect it magically be a void.
You will have meet may Flyboy, many!
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Regardless, I have no interest into what ends up in my employers pocket, not my business.
What I am interested in is what legally should be paid to employees, as it sounds like every employer has a different interpretation of the award.
I can't remember the amount of times i've asked a pilot about their company to be told "yeah, they're a great company, they pay the award"
Wow, that company sounds great, they pay the absolute minimum they are legally required to pay!
Or just as many times "yeah, good to work for, I get paid the award but no overnight allowances or anything like that".
Maybe the written award needs to be more specific? Maybe all companies should try for an EBA, so employees and employers can reach an agreement which suits their operation?
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Seems if you read on here the EBA's still have wingers that complain Seems all the ones in Australia, All the ones in the Sand Pit and all the ones in every other place in the World - the odd person will say it is fine.
The award is VERY clear, and overnights must be paid - also the type of accommodation is specified.
P.S any pilots get paid above the EBA? or just the minimum it states?
The award is VERY clear, and overnights must be paid - also the type of accommodation is specified.
P.S any pilots get paid above the EBA? or just the minimum it states?
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Seems if you read on here the EBA's still have wingers that complain Seems all the ones in Australia, All the ones in the Sand Pit and all the ones in every other place in the World - the odd person will say it is fine.
The award is VERY clear, and overnights must be paid - also the type of accommodation is specified.
P.S any pilots get paid above the EBA? or just the minimum it states?
The award is VERY clear, and overnights must be paid - also the type of accommodation is specified.
P.S any pilots get paid above the EBA? or just the minimum it states?
I've worked under an EBA, also represented an employee group when an EBA was coming to an end and negotiations were in place for the new agreement.
My experience was that conditions/pay were traded so most were happy.
For instance an operator could add a claus regarding a bond, the employee group could then maybe come back with an above ward salary or possible overtime rate, perhaps then the pilot not be looking to leave first chance he or she gets?
I've never STARTED eba negotiations, I imagine it would possibly be a long expensive process?
I have no interest into what ends up in my employers pocket, not my business.
What I am interested in is what legally should be paid to employees
What I am interested in is what legally should be paid to employees
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Completely wrong context. I was implying the cream that my boss takes off the top is not my business, getting paid the legal amount is my business. Although I think you already knew that...
Unfortunately most new pilots have never worked in a small business, and think that the boss has a money tree out the back. When he needs to make payroll, pay for the 100 hourly, new prop, turbine overhaul etc, he just walks out and grabs a fistfull of $100.00 bills.
Most pilots don't understand that the bank overdraft is depended on the big mining company paying for that $10K charter this month not next month, and the government department that is a regular client, is also a slow payer especially when long weekend and public holidays are thrown in to the mix.
Now getting back to training costs, in most small companies the check and training guy also has to fly the line, take him off line for an endorsement, means the company may have to hire in a casual pilot to fill spot on the roster for a period of time, likewise if somebody leaves at short notice, that means other pilots may not be able to take leave etc. It takes time to do the endorsement, and if you only have one aeroplane, the endorsement has to be done outside contract flying or RPT schedules.
The old 50 hours of ICUS can be done in two weeks or three months, lots of variables in that depending on the pilot under training, flying schedule, check captain availability etc. Not to mention ground schools, CRM courses etc.
I reckon a basic Caravan endorsement and prescribed ICUS for VFR ops for a 1500 hour pilot would be a $15K min exercise, without getting into Garmin 1000 trickery and ASEPTA stuff.
Step up to a Conqest II, Kingair, B1900 or Metro as your first turbine an the boss will be watching dollar signs spinning faster than the N1 gauge!
Most pilots don't understand that the bank overdraft is depended on the big mining company paying for that $10K charter this month not next month, and the government department that is a regular client, is also a slow payer especially when long weekend and public holidays are thrown in to the mix.
Now getting back to training costs, in most small companies the check and training guy also has to fly the line, take him off line for an endorsement, means the company may have to hire in a casual pilot to fill spot on the roster for a period of time, likewise if somebody leaves at short notice, that means other pilots may not be able to take leave etc. It takes time to do the endorsement, and if you only have one aeroplane, the endorsement has to be done outside contract flying or RPT schedules.
The old 50 hours of ICUS can be done in two weeks or three months, lots of variables in that depending on the pilot under training, flying schedule, check captain availability etc. Not to mention ground schools, CRM courses etc.
I reckon a basic Caravan endorsement and prescribed ICUS for VFR ops for a 1500 hour pilot would be a $15K min exercise, without getting into Garmin 1000 trickery and ASEPTA stuff.
Step up to a Conqest II, Kingair, B1900 or Metro as your first turbine an the boss will be watching dollar signs spinning faster than the N1 gauge!
The last company I worked for paid strictly by the award but refused to pay the hard lying allowance for night stops at mine sites. Margins were thin and it could have made a difference to the profitability of the contract.
A couple of years after I left they went into administration and ended up being taken over by the main client, a logistics company who were used to screwing subcontracting truckers into the ground, who they had no trouble replacing when they went broke. It was a bit harder finding another turbine operator to step in a short notice so they ended up having to buy the company to keep the freight moving.
As has been stated before, margins are tight and it's easy to end up on the wrong side of the drag curve where profits are concerned. We had a youngster destroy both engines on landing one night with a bog down. Hundreds of thousands of dollars gone in a few seconds.
A couple of years after I left they went into administration and ended up being taken over by the main client, a logistics company who were used to screwing subcontracting truckers into the ground, who they had no trouble replacing when they went broke. It was a bit harder finding another turbine operator to step in a short notice so they ended up having to buy the company to keep the freight moving.
As has been stated before, margins are tight and it's easy to end up on the wrong side of the drag curve where profits are concerned. We had a youngster destroy both engines on landing one night with a bog down. Hundreds of thousands of dollars gone in a few seconds.
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At the outset, I wish to state that this post is neither for or against either a pilot's or employer's point of view; however, I think it is time to place both employers and employees on notice with regard to the law of "unjust enrichment" "unconscionable conduct" and the equitable remedy of "restitution".
Whilst this is a complex and dynamic area of law I offer the following simplification to raise awareness amongst air pilots and their employers but with the following caveat: In any legal matter, always seek legal advice from a qualified legal practitioner!
If a relationship is entered into or established through conduct between two parties and one of those parties takes from the other a valuable benefit such as, for the sake of argument, an aircraft type rating there arises an implication that the party providing the valuable benefit will receive adequate compensation in return for the provision of that benefit. In the case of an employer/employee relationship the employer would reasonably expect a fair return of service for benefits granted or gained beyond the normal expectations of the employment agreement i.e the provision of labour.
If an employee were to take a benefit from an employer, such as a type rating, and then elect to leave the employment without giving a reasonable return of service to the employer, the doctrine of unjust enrichment could be relied upon by the employer to launch legal proceedings against the former employee notwithstanding the fact that the Air Pilots Award (the Award) states that the employer is required to provide the training at its expense.
Taking a substantial benefit in the form of a type rating or other significant expensive enhancement to your licence and qualifications which are, after all, a personal qualification not belonging to the employer and then figuratively thumbing your nose at the employer and saying "so long and thanks for the free expensive endorsement but you can't touch me because I'm protected by the Award" could very well provoke an employer to utilise unjust enrichment as a cause of action in a law suit to recover for loss and damage suffered and seek resitution for monetary loss caused by the unfair behaviour.
Whilst I am not aware of any legal proceedings affirmatively or otherwise settled or as yet launched against an employee (by an employer engaged in the business of general aviation) for unjust enrichment and restitution, any pilot who thinks they are immune from such a suit should seek legal advice.
From a legal and equitable perspective, in my view, pilots contemplating leaving their employ without giving a fair return of service after taking advantage of a substantial enrichment granted by their employer should act cautiously. Furthermore, if you take advantage of the award provisions which enrich you at the employer's expense, knowing that you are not going to give a fair return of service you leave yourself open to legal action by the employer notwithstanding the award provisions. Indeed, knowingly taking financial advantage of your employer could be construed as a fraud and therefore criminal in nature.
In extreme cases of abuse by the employee of the employer's Award obligation to provide training and or qualifications the employer could well and perhaps should, seek restitution from the employee for unconscionable conduct.
The employer/employee relationship works both ways and Awards are still subject to the common and equitable laws of Australia and courts of competent jurisdiction will seek to balance the rights of all parties to a legal proceeding.
So if you, as an employee, enrich yourself by taking a benefit from your employer and don't give a fair return of service or engage in unconscionable or criminal conduct, award or no award, you should beware!
If you are an employer, don't think this area of law gives you a right to abuse the award system or treat employees unfairly because as the law of equity requires; if you want equity then do equity!
Whilst this is a complex and dynamic area of law I offer the following simplification to raise awareness amongst air pilots and their employers but with the following caveat: In any legal matter, always seek legal advice from a qualified legal practitioner!
If a relationship is entered into or established through conduct between two parties and one of those parties takes from the other a valuable benefit such as, for the sake of argument, an aircraft type rating there arises an implication that the party providing the valuable benefit will receive adequate compensation in return for the provision of that benefit. In the case of an employer/employee relationship the employer would reasonably expect a fair return of service for benefits granted or gained beyond the normal expectations of the employment agreement i.e the provision of labour.
If an employee were to take a benefit from an employer, such as a type rating, and then elect to leave the employment without giving a reasonable return of service to the employer, the doctrine of unjust enrichment could be relied upon by the employer to launch legal proceedings against the former employee notwithstanding the fact that the Air Pilots Award (the Award) states that the employer is required to provide the training at its expense.
Taking a substantial benefit in the form of a type rating or other significant expensive enhancement to your licence and qualifications which are, after all, a personal qualification not belonging to the employer and then figuratively thumbing your nose at the employer and saying "so long and thanks for the free expensive endorsement but you can't touch me because I'm protected by the Award" could very well provoke an employer to utilise unjust enrichment as a cause of action in a law suit to recover for loss and damage suffered and seek resitution for monetary loss caused by the unfair behaviour.
Whilst I am not aware of any legal proceedings affirmatively or otherwise settled or as yet launched against an employee (by an employer engaged in the business of general aviation) for unjust enrichment and restitution, any pilot who thinks they are immune from such a suit should seek legal advice.
From a legal and equitable perspective, in my view, pilots contemplating leaving their employ without giving a fair return of service after taking advantage of a substantial enrichment granted by their employer should act cautiously. Furthermore, if you take advantage of the award provisions which enrich you at the employer's expense, knowing that you are not going to give a fair return of service you leave yourself open to legal action by the employer notwithstanding the award provisions. Indeed, knowingly taking financial advantage of your employer could be construed as a fraud and therefore criminal in nature.
In extreme cases of abuse by the employee of the employer's Award obligation to provide training and or qualifications the employer could well and perhaps should, seek restitution from the employee for unconscionable conduct.
The employer/employee relationship works both ways and Awards are still subject to the common and equitable laws of Australia and courts of competent jurisdiction will seek to balance the rights of all parties to a legal proceeding.
So if you, as an employee, enrich yourself by taking a benefit from your employer and don't give a fair return of service or engage in unconscionable or criminal conduct, award or no award, you should beware!
If you are an employer, don't think this area of law gives you a right to abuse the award system or treat employees unfairly because as the law of equity requires; if you want equity then do equity!
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Oh the law!
That depends on who hears the case, how they feel on said day/s, what they will be allowed to accept as submittable evidence and much more.
Then take it to appeal and get a different decision.
Take it to a higher court and the decision changes again, appeal that and yep again another change in ruling.
Sad shape of our legal system - so in short.
What your lawyer (legal advice is) only depends on the day in hand regardless of true facts.
* I have never seen a guarantee offered by our legal "expert" folks.
That depends on who hears the case, how they feel on said day/s, what they will be allowed to accept as submittable evidence and much more.
Then take it to appeal and get a different decision.
Take it to a higher court and the decision changes again, appeal that and yep again another change in ruling.
Sad shape of our legal system - so in short.
What your lawyer (legal advice is) only depends on the day in hand regardless of true facts.
* I have never seen a guarantee offered by our legal "expert" folks.
Just as much as there are owners / operators who don't pay the award, and I agree with Horatio, the award should be paid. If you choose to accept a job where the award is not paid, then what other bills are not being paid (and by accepting such a job, you as an employee are contributing to the rapid decline in GA, as the good operators are undercut by the shonky cowboys - well done!)
Metro Man / Stationair8 - well said!
Most owners / operators work harder than any staff member, in the vain hope that they will have an asset to sell when it comes to retirement - now there's a laugh!
Along the way, imagine the joy if an owner were able to bill an employee for a damage to company equipment caused by thoughtlessness or lack of respect or laziness......
Do burnouts in the company car / overrun the data allowance by watching videos on Youtube / double the fuel burn on the company vehicle by taking a potential shag touring on your day off / bog the company vehicle on a beach and get caught by the tide while going fishing on your day off / over-run the allotted flight time on a scenic flight because you want to impress the hot backpacker in the RHS / install Tinder on the company mobile (and exceed the data allowance making your selection)....... All examples from the last 6 months that I have heard of.
All expenses to the owner / operator, and yet not recoverable....
It also has to be said, for a larger company with managers or an employed Chief Pilot, if the company goes bust, staff walk away and find another job. The owner usually isn't so lucky....
Metro Man / Stationair8 - well said!
Most owners / operators work harder than any staff member, in the vain hope that they will have an asset to sell when it comes to retirement - now there's a laugh!
Along the way, imagine the joy if an owner were able to bill an employee for a damage to company equipment caused by thoughtlessness or lack of respect or laziness......
Do burnouts in the company car / overrun the data allowance by watching videos on Youtube / double the fuel burn on the company vehicle by taking a potential shag touring on your day off / bog the company vehicle on a beach and get caught by the tide while going fishing on your day off / over-run the allotted flight time on a scenic flight because you want to impress the hot backpacker in the RHS / install Tinder on the company mobile (and exceed the data allowance making your selection)....... All examples from the last 6 months that I have heard of.
All expenses to the owner / operator, and yet not recoverable....
It also has to be said, for a larger company with managers or an employed Chief Pilot, if the company goes bust, staff walk away and find another job. The owner usually isn't so lucky....
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The Award does not protect an employee from the legal consequences arising as a result of of reckless, unlawful/illegal, wilful bad behaviour causing loss and damage to the employer.
There seems to be a prevailing notion that pilot employees are immune from all action to recover for loss and damage no matter what the behaviour of a pilot. This is definitely not the case.
There seems to be a prevailing notion that pilot employees are immune from all action to recover for loss and damage no matter what the behaviour of a pilot. This is definitely not the case.
