More RAAF intransigence YBWW/YBOK
rutan around
Maybe the answer is to send our fast jet blokes overseas for their training so they can learn to operate in tight spaces. It's win win really. They'd end up better pilots and the rest of us wouldn't be stuffed around with endless restricted areas.
Maybe the answer is to send our fast jet blokes overseas for their training so they can learn to operate in tight spaces. It's win win really. They'd end up better pilots and the rest of us wouldn't be stuffed around with endless restricted areas.
I'm amazed at how self absorbed some people here actually are! Who's out of touch with reality now?!?!?
You get better pilots from training in airspace where they can realistically simulate operational realities.
Genuine question, I don't know. If we are, then maybe it's a worthwhile inconvenience to have.
What I think you air force blokes don't understand is in the commercial world we are about trade offs. Things cost money, whether we like it or not (because this is dirty, dirty management speak), we do a cost/benefit analysis before we scratch our ass. If the benefits outweigh the costs, TO ALL, go for your life. If it doesn't things should be reconsidered.
I don't think anyone isn't appreciating your service, or not smugly proud the ADF/RAAF punches above it's weight. What we are saying is, can you still do these things while having less of a commercial impact on our operations?
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Can of worms time
Honestly, are we that much more effective than the UK, US, Germany, Singapore etc. etc.?
IMHO (based on my experience as part of an army training team in Iraq in 2006/2007) is that when compared to professional armed forces like the British and the Americans, the ADF are like school children playing at grown-ups.
DIVOSH!
P.S. This is in no way meant to be a criticism of the front line soldier (and I include combat pilots in this) but is a criticism of our middle and higher level defence leadership.
Classic stuff Lead
You have a major dummy spit...and then tell everyone to stop fighting.
I did need a laugh today.
You have a major dummy spit...and then tell everyone to stop fighting.
I did need a laugh today.
Your "major dummy spit" is my statement of fact, based on too many years of experience.
Tootle pip!!
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This was lifted from another thread currently running.
This statement is probably quite correct. However if airing problems and offering solutions fixes even one of the myriad problems in Aust aviation it's better than nothing.
User,
If only it was that simple. Obviously you have never flown VFR or if you have you've never flown out of sight of your departure point. Otherwise you'd understand the problem better.
When weather is less than brilliant for a run from YBAF to YSBK it is often safer to track coastal out of the clouds and out of the mountains. All is good until Williamstown. I've spent so much time circling Broughton Island waiting for a clearance that I've had to change orbiting direction to prevent dizziness.
I don't mind reducing altitude to 500 ft if necessary so long as I can keep going. Why can't the restricted area follow the beach which at it's closest is over 3 nm from the airfield? I don't believe any aircraft using YWLM would not be able to achieve 1,000 ft or better in 3 nm. Beaches provide very certain navigation for VFR pilots. Stay over water and yer right. Drift over land and yer not.
Operation Pitch Black is another fairly regular disruption to NT flying. I wonder how many other countries allow their military to tie up a similiar area as we do in Australia for a couple of weeks for each exercise. At more than half a million square km the area is bigger than a lot of countries.
Before some of you get your knickers in a knot I'm not saying we shouldn't have Pitch Black. I'm just saying that more effort should be made to accommodate non-military aviation traffic. If air traffic controllers can safely handle GA and airline traffic into busy places like Sydney, surely the military controllers can keep Wild Wallaby and Bad Bandicoot away from the rest of us
PPRuNe posters postulate proposals periodically, promptly pointless pirouetting proceeds.
Send a squadron 1000s of miles overseas to train so that you don't have to put on a few more track miles on you way between Dubbo and Sydney?
If only it was that simple. Obviously you have never flown VFR or if you have you've never flown out of sight of your departure point. Otherwise you'd understand the problem better.
When weather is less than brilliant for a run from YBAF to YSBK it is often safer to track coastal out of the clouds and out of the mountains. All is good until Williamstown. I've spent so much time circling Broughton Island waiting for a clearance that I've had to change orbiting direction to prevent dizziness.
I don't mind reducing altitude to 500 ft if necessary so long as I can keep going. Why can't the restricted area follow the beach which at it's closest is over 3 nm from the airfield? I don't believe any aircraft using YWLM would not be able to achieve 1,000 ft or better in 3 nm. Beaches provide very certain navigation for VFR pilots. Stay over water and yer right. Drift over land and yer not.
Operation Pitch Black is another fairly regular disruption to NT flying. I wonder how many other countries allow their military to tie up a similiar area as we do in Australia for a couple of weeks for each exercise. At more than half a million square km the area is bigger than a lot of countries.
Before some of you get your knickers in a knot I'm not saying we shouldn't have Pitch Black. I'm just saying that more effort should be made to accommodate non-military aviation traffic. If air traffic controllers can safely handle GA and airline traffic into busy places like Sydney, surely the military controllers can keep Wild Wallaby and Bad Bandicoot away from the rest of us
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whingers
I have had my fair share of mixing with very fast single pilot jets, including a few moments of risky behaviour by said pilots. Sometimes airspace is not suitable for all types and wide separation is warranted. Some of VFSPJs are being operated by folks with less than 300 hours grand total and soon they may be putting their lives on the line in Iraq or elsewhere.
Time to let them get on with their training without whinging.
Time to let them get on with their training without whinging.
Some good news
For every negative report, their is usually at least one good one.
Some years ago, I was flying into Darwin from Melbourne via Katherine in my trusty VFR single Comanche.
Never been there before, so I that morning rang the RAAf ATC guys and asked for some advice so as not to cause to much panic.
Spoke to a young lady who asked for my call sign and approximate arrival time.
She said she would be on duty at that time, and just to call up in the Estern VFR lane reporting point.
When I got close to darwin, the smoke haze was horrendous, it was rough as buggery and my kids were throwing up.
Was having trouble identifying things at 1000 ft AGL in completely unfamiliar territory. The RAAF ATC lady recognised my call sign , said hi, and made sure I headed to the west of track to avoid some of the worst smoke. Told me to keep looking for C150 doing circuits. Eventually spotted him ahead, so she said just follow him in and all will be well.
In the meantime there was an increasingly frustrated Neptune driver wanting to expedite into a straight in approach. As I had the wheels out , all flaps and half the door open trying to slow the Comanche down so as not to run up the clacker of the C150, our Neptune almost demanded he get priority.Tthe lovely lady in ATC reminded him that these GA pilots were paying for their own fuel as well as his, and he would just have to wait. There was a shocked silence from all, though I must admit I was laughing out load.
I got off that runway in about three seconds from touchdown, which at least allowed the guy to get his heavy down without a go round.
Mick
Some years ago, I was flying into Darwin from Melbourne via Katherine in my trusty VFR single Comanche.
Never been there before, so I that morning rang the RAAf ATC guys and asked for some advice so as not to cause to much panic.
Spoke to a young lady who asked for my call sign and approximate arrival time.
She said she would be on duty at that time, and just to call up in the Estern VFR lane reporting point.
When I got close to darwin, the smoke haze was horrendous, it was rough as buggery and my kids were throwing up.
Was having trouble identifying things at 1000 ft AGL in completely unfamiliar territory. The RAAF ATC lady recognised my call sign , said hi, and made sure I headed to the west of track to avoid some of the worst smoke. Told me to keep looking for C150 doing circuits. Eventually spotted him ahead, so she said just follow him in and all will be well.
In the meantime there was an increasingly frustrated Neptune driver wanting to expedite into a straight in approach. As I had the wheels out , all flaps and half the door open trying to slow the Comanche down so as not to run up the clacker of the C150, our Neptune almost demanded he get priority.Tthe lovely lady in ATC reminded him that these GA pilots were paying for their own fuel as well as his, and he would just have to wait. There was a shocked silence from all, though I must admit I was laughing out load.
I got off that runway in about three seconds from touchdown, which at least allowed the guy to get his heavy down without a go round.
Mick
Time to let them get on with their training without whinging
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Oh dear, we are descending into another willy waving episode.
East coast OZ alone blocks off more airspace for our military brethren than the entire USA. We have vast areas available where traffic is non existent, why do our skygods have to wave their willies in our most congested civilian airspace?
East coast OZ alone blocks off more airspace for our military brethren than the entire USA. We have vast areas available where traffic is non existent, why do our skygods have to wave their willies in our most congested civilian airspace?
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Maybe it isn't the standard of the knucks, but the standard of the guy they have to avoid?
What happens when a ridgy didge enemy comes along with evil intent? Do they take a sickie that day?
Here's a tip cbradio:- Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
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A dogs breakfast.
I have a particular liking of the canine species, those with ethics, morals and dedication to what they perceive as 'their duty'. If you're lucky, you can watch a team of top flight dogs go to work; happy as Claggy in dust, rain, sleet and snow. They are a pack animal and allowing for the natural order of nature, cooperate to get a job done. Until one of them slips into his mates kennel, to 'borrow' a bone or a snooze of a favourite rug – then, there's a dust up. The normally benign 'mate-ship' literally goes to the dogs – for in matters territorial, even Mama's pet Pekinese will turn into a rabid, fighting dervish.
If we could only get them to see that sharing is simply an extension of the cooperation they utilise during working hours, the back yard would be a much more peaceful sort of place.
History demarks many serious 'dust-ups' of the human kind, directly attributable to territorial issues and access. How many court cases a year are heard because a fence has strayed 100 mm over a property line, or a tree extends over a garden – it's a big number. The problem is that once one side decides they have 'ownership' of a place, they will, like the honest dog, protect it; often to the death, particularly when 'both' parties feel righteously aggrieved.
This here, is not a use of airspace debate; it's become a matter of ownership and territorial rights. The military believe they own the airspace, the civvies also believe that commercial advantages, ultimately for the betterment of the country could be gained by unfettered access to that airspace.
Lets call the Willy sizing competition a bloodless draw and see if the military can allow a little more access and if the civvies can do with a little less than unrestricted. Shirley, men of good will and reason can see a way clear to avoiding unnecessary restriction of matters both of a military and commercial interest.
But then again, here's that bloody mongrel from next door, pissing on 'my' lawn; this time I'm going to thump him, good and proper. Watch this.
Toot toot...
If we could only get them to see that sharing is simply an extension of the cooperation they utilise during working hours, the back yard would be a much more peaceful sort of place.
History demarks many serious 'dust-ups' of the human kind, directly attributable to territorial issues and access. How many court cases a year are heard because a fence has strayed 100 mm over a property line, or a tree extends over a garden – it's a big number. The problem is that once one side decides they have 'ownership' of a place, they will, like the honest dog, protect it; often to the death, particularly when 'both' parties feel righteously aggrieved.
This here, is not a use of airspace debate; it's become a matter of ownership and territorial rights. The military believe they own the airspace, the civvies also believe that commercial advantages, ultimately for the betterment of the country could be gained by unfettered access to that airspace.
Lets call the Willy sizing competition a bloodless draw and see if the military can allow a little more access and if the civvies can do with a little less than unrestricted. Shirley, men of good will and reason can see a way clear to avoiding unnecessary restriction of matters both of a military and commercial interest.
But then again, here's that bloody mongrel from next door, pissing on 'my' lawn; this time I'm going to thump him, good and proper. Watch this.
Toot toot...
The not the simplest explanation that The RAAF, like CASA, hate aviation conducted by private non RAAF folk and are bent on destroying it any way they can?
What an absurd proposition. There are so many members of the RAAF with an invested interest in GA (not just pilots) and they have developed strong relationships in the GA community - certainly there's no one "bent on destroying it..." They don't influence GA significantly and probably don't give a hoot about us flying our bug smashers - but far from wanting to "destroy" us.
So much inflammatory crap on here - I try to resist responding but it gets on my nerves.
Sunfish, I invariably enjoy reading your commentary however following this statement
I call BS!
Did you mean "literary"?
The not the simplest explanation that The RAAF, like CASA, hate aviation conducted by private non RAAF folk and are bent on destroying it any way they can?
Kharon, your oratory skills are in fine form, as usual
Oh how I loved sending a QF B747 up the light aircraft lane at Williamtown one busy day.."report at Nobby's 500ft, traffic is two southbound Cessnas just passing Port Steven's light!"
What a sight to see the "whale" slide up the beach and call abeam Willi...
We were flexible...
What a sight to see the "whale" slide up the beach and call abeam Willi...
We were flexible...
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Oh how I loved sending a QF B747 up the light aircraft lane
The not the simplest explanation that The RAAF, like CASA, hate aviation conducted by private non RAAF folk and are bent on destroying it any way they can?