PPRuNe Forums

Go Back   PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions
Forgotten your Username/Password?

The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 30th Oct 2008, 02:07   #1 (permalink)
PlankBlender
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Is it legal to carry extra Avgas in a jerry can?

Just wondering if a couple of jerry cans (of course properly secured and ventilated to avoid pressure build-up) in the baggage compartment for that long outback sector where there's no fuel at any of the en route strips, would be considered legal in this country?
  Reply
Old 30th Oct 2008, 02:36   #2 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Posts: 2,788
Not such a silly question.

If it's PVT ops, no problem.

edit: hmmm, sarcastic reply prior to mine has been deleted!
compressor stall is offline   Reply
Old 30th Oct 2008, 02:42   #3 (permalink)
PlankBlender
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Peter Fanelli wrote:
Quote:
you have to ask that?
I do, mate, because I couldn't find a thread here or a reference in the CAO/CAR's.

Maybe you can help with a reference to the regulations?!
  Reply
Old 30th Oct 2008, 02:47   #4 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Posts: 2,788
CASR 92.175 Goods carried by private operators
Subparts 92.B and 92.C do not apply to the carriage of dangerous
goods by an aircraft operated by an operator engaged in private (noncommercial)
operations if:
(a) the aircraft is operating in Australian territory and:
(i) is unpressurised; and
(ii) has an approved passenger seat configuration of less than
10 seats; and
(b) the goods:
(i) are in a proper condition for carriage by air; and
(ii) are identified by class in accordance with the Technical
Instructions; and
(iii) are permitted by the Technical Instructions to be carried on
a passenger or cargo aircraft; and
(iv) are stowed and secured on the aircraft to prevent
movement and damage, and segregated in accordance with
the requirements of the Technical Instructions if they are
likely to react dangerously with one another; and
(c) the pilot-in-command of the aircraft ensures that every person on
board the aircraft knows, before boarding the aircraft, that the
dangerous goods are on board.

Sorry about the formatting. Full regs here

And for those trying to suggest that an empty leg out to pick up pax is technically a PVT operation, remember that the now empty Jerry Can is a DG that you will need approval to carry and need to manifest on the way home with pax.....
compressor stall is offline   Reply
Old 30th Oct 2008, 03:01   #5 (permalink)
PlankBlender
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Thanks for that, compressor stall!

The regulator sure makes it easy now all that remains is to get hold of a copy of the IATA Dangerous Goods Regulations or the ICAO Technical Instructions for the Safe Transport of Dangerous Goods by Air (neither of which seem to be a simple download, would one believe it..), and I can be sure I'm in the green for taking some sort of jerry can on a trip. Ridiculous
  Reply
Old 30th Oct 2008, 03:14   #6 (permalink)
Silly Old Git
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: saiba spes
Posts: 3,752
They frown at you tipping them in the tank while airborne though
tinpis is offline   Reply
Old 30th Oct 2008, 03:46   #7 (permalink)
PlankBlender
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
They frown at you tipping them in the tank while airborne though
Yup, I'll have to make sure the autopilot is engaged for that one, and that I trim the aeroplane before I get out to sustain my weight and drag on the wing

In earnest, though, the only practical way for some of the LSA on a recent tour around the country to make the longer legs across the top end, was to have extra fuel on board for a quick stop at one of the many en route strips that had no facilities..
  Reply
Old 30th Oct 2008, 04:46   #8 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Godzone Land
Age: 45
Posts: 6,155
The answer is to fit bigger tanks! 6 hours worth is a good number.

Stallie, I assume if you dont bring the can back its not a problem!

J
Jabawocky is offline   Reply
Old 30th Oct 2008, 05:18   #9 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sydney
Age: 55
Posts: 586
Just curious, what type of aircraft are you using for your trip?
sms777 is offline   Reply
Old 30th Oct 2008, 06:30   #10 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: australia
Posts: 161
Having perhaps once met someone in the distant past who may have used jerry cans to tanker fuel I can mention a couple of minor points. Jerry cans are prone to rusting inside and need to be carefully checked at the bottom and corners before use. After engaging the locking lug shake and turn upside down to ensure the rubber seal is working OK, the smell and leakage of petrol in flight, apart from making you feel sick, can constitute a health hazard. To get any decent extra range you need about five of them, 100 litres and it is hard in most light aircraft to find somewhere to fasten them down securely, even lined up side by side. And last, no matter how carefully you handle them they are awkward to handle and tend to damage the paint and put dings in your luggage space. Not trying to put you off or anything.
flywatcher is offline   Reply
Old 30th Oct 2008, 06:40   #11 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Perth
Posts: 432
Very good points Flywatcher.

The sad thing is that it's getting more and more difficult to source fuel in Australia (probably elsewhere too).

Once, most townships had Aeroclubs who supplied fuel and a cup of coffee plus a chat.
With those going broke and fuel facilities being pulled out, it's hard enough to get fuel during the week in business hours.
On a weekend or out of hours which with daylight saving still constitutes 30% of the daylight hours, the humble jerrycan is becoming necessary again despite the caveats you've raised.
ZEEBEE is offline   Reply
Old 30th Oct 2008, 06:40   #12 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Qld troppo
Posts: 3,262
I have no idea whether or not its legal - but carrying a large quantity of petrol in the cabin just doesn't seem like a particularly good idea to me!

I often carry a small petrol powered generator in the Bo but always empty its fuel tank first and bum some mogas for it at my destination.

Dr
ForkTailedDrKiller is offline   Reply
Old 30th Oct 2008, 06:43   #13 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: the back of my falcoon
Age: 31
Posts: 111
Quote:
And for those trying to suggest that an empty leg out to pick up pax is technically a PVT operation, remember that the now empty Jerry Can is a DG that you will need approval to carry and need to manifest on the way home with pax.....
to send dg on a commercial flight you need to have completed an approved DG course.... 3 days of excitment!

From memory you can have upto 5L of avgas/petrol (don't quote me on the 5L... but was something like that, which would cover your 'empty' jerry cans) on a commercial passenger carrying flight as long as you have the appropriate paper work completed by a approved person & the PIC has handling instructions / precautions (MSDS)
DanArcher is offline   Reply
Old 30th Oct 2008, 06:45   #14 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: nz/oz
Posts: 148
not to mention that it would be a bad idea to light your smoke....
gadude is offline   Reply
Old 30th Oct 2008, 07:13   #15 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Back at Skypark Hokkaido Japan, towing upJapanese Glider Pilots and when not flying, eating great Japanese food and yes, still looking for a bad bottle of red
Age: 59
Posts: 1,720
The regs quoted in the post by compressor stall appear to be relatively straight forward. But how would this scenario apply?

Suppose a Glider Tug pilot employed by a full-time commercial operation has to aero tow retrieve a number of Gliders flown by overseas visitors, who have outlanded about 60nm from the base of ops.

The tuggie is using a Pa25-235 with wing tanks of 12US gal/side and the hopper part of the airframe is now a storage compartment. Given that there are about four, possibly five gliders to retrieve, he loads three 20lit Jerrycans into the compartment and secures them, planning to refuel out at one of the outlanding sites.

The idea is to fly to the furthest outlander, launch him to an altitude where the glider releases which is sufficient to return to the base in a straight glide.
The Tuggie then proceeds to the next outlander and launches him. By the time he lands at the third outlanding site he would be well and truly into reserves if he returned to base after launching this glider.

Comments?
Pinky the pilot is offline   Reply
Old 30th Oct 2008, 07:29   #16 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Posts: 2,788
Just talk to the CASA person who is responsible for DGs and get an exemption / clarification and have the process in the ops manual.

There many operators who are able to carry DGs with pax so what you set out above should be pretty straight forward.
compressor stall is offline   Reply
Old 30th Oct 2008, 07:40   #17 (permalink)
PlankBlender
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I wasn't thinking of metal containers, rather plastic due weight and corrosion. Is that a bad idea for some reason?

Two cans with 20 litres each will give me 70 minutes of additional endurance. With my Archer, I could then do two 2.5 hour legs with a refueling/nature stop in the middle, and I would still have the fixed reserve and holding fuel.
  Reply
Old 30th Oct 2008, 07:53   #18 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: dubai
Posts: 950
Never use plastic containers as you cannot earth out the static electricity. When pouring fuel into the tanks, you could loose the aircraft through static build up.

Do not vent the jerry cans, as it is not necessary. If fumes were to find there way into the cockpit you would be a flying bomb. Just check they don't leak before securing them into the aircraft.

If you have to carry extra fuel as suggested, good quality jerry cans, secured upright are your "safest" option.
doubleu-anker is offline   Reply
Old 30th Oct 2008, 11:39   #19 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Sydney
Posts: 863
my opinion....?
DEADSET ILLEGAL under the IATA dangerous goods regulations. regardless of how they are secured, or even what type of container they are carried in.
Without a proper Dnagerous goods manifest and checklist with accompanying NOTOC and DG carrying approval, you are asking to be ramp checked.

A quick check of CASA CAR's/CAO's will refer you to the IATA dgr's and basically state that you MUST comply with the IATA DGR's to comply with the CASA CAR's/CAO's.

FTDK.... even that mogas driven gennie is illegal, IMHO.
apache is offline   Reply
Old 30th Oct 2008, 12:24   #20 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: In da Big Smoke
Posts: 1,712
From memory to carry it as a DG it would have to be in the original 200L drum, all sealed up and consigned as DGs on a freight only flight.

However if its a private flight then you can do as you please, however I wouldn't have thought it would have been a smart idea to carry fuel in jerry cans though. Mind you, I knew a guy who used to carrying plane loads of explosives on private flights! Obviously tired of living
neville_nobody is offline   Reply
Reply
 
 
 


Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 17:00.


vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network