Question. BBC Rogue SAS Heroes series
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Southern UK
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Along with many others here, I suspect, I clearly remember being dragged over the grass, wearing a parachute harness to practice flipping over on to my back to be able hit the QRB. It doesn't take many goes at being dragged along to learn that there is a certain imperative to get this right, and do it quickly, not least because I remember my mates laughing and taking scores for time and style as to how long each of us took to release the harness. Same goes for water landing training, doesn't take long to learn that being dragged through the sea by a simulated parachute is an unpleasant experience that is best avoided. IIRC, all that training dates back to well before WWII.
When you were doing para training though - there would presumably been a limit on windspeed ?
I suspect on the first SAS Op that the windspeed was way outside training limits.
I suspect on the first SAS Op that the windspeed was way outside training limits.
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Southern UK
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No wind speed limit, as it was part of safety training in the event of having to eject. The training rig was a horizontal bar, attached by ropes to the Landrover towing eye, with parachute risers and harness hooked on to that, to simulate being dragged along by the parachute after landing. This was preceded by being dropped from a hangar roof on a sort of brake thing, that simulated hitting the ground at normal parachute landing speeds. The water training was at Mountbatten, with a similar rig to the Landrover one, but attached to a Pinnace.
I remember seeing a programme about the training for all those parachuted in during the D Day invasion, and they seemed to have a similar type of training. I volunteered for a low level water descent from a Herc, many years ago, as there were spare places on a course at Lyneham and someone suggested a couple of us do it to raise money for charity. Very similar training, being dropped from a rig to practice the landing and being dragged to learn how to flip over and hit the QRB. The actual descent into the sea in Falmouth Bay was too short for me to remember. One moment I was being shoved out the door, the next I was ten feet down in the oggin waiting forever for my lifejacket to inflate. 400ft doesn't really give much time in the air . . .
As far as I can tell - the problem on Op 'Squatter' was a combination of the ground conditions and high windspeed - below is a short paragraph describing the landing conditions,presumably in the dark with a fairly violent storm going on.
Stirling had been advised by a senior RAF officer that the wind speeds at the target area were going to be too high.
Stirling had been advised by a senior RAF officer that the wind speeds at the target area were going to be too high.
The SAS men jumped into the teeth of a storm, described by locals as one of the fiercest to hit the region in years. In his operational report ‘Paddy’ Mayne called the landing “unpleasant”, an understatement if ever there was one. The ground wasn’t only rock hard, it was studded with stones and thorny bushes. Jeff Du Vivier told his diary how the wind dragged him for 150 yards across the desert. “When I finally freed myself, I was bruised and bleeding and there was a sharp pain in my right leg,” he wrote. “When I saw the rocky ground I’d travelled over, I thanked my lucky stars that I was alive.”
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Southern UK
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My guess is that would definitely have been the case. I can't remember what the limit was for the water descent into Falmouth Bay, probably fairly low as the safety boat was a Fleet Tender, and that probably set the safe sea state, and hence wind speed, we could jump at, as it had to get us out of the water. I've never done any other parachute jump, so can't say what that limit might be.
I remember my grandfather (an RFC pilot from 1916 to 1918) was disparaging about parachutes, saying that he strongly objected to them, even though he was badly burned when he crash landed in late 1917, from the post crash fire (a consequence of having an overhead fuel tank, I think). Not sure when we adopted parachutes as standard kit, probably not that long after WWI, so there must have been a fair bit of knowledge of safe limits by 1941.
From Dropzone:
Less than a third of the men reached the agreed rendezvous point, with some of them literally scraped to death along the desert floor because they couldn't unclip their parachutes.
I should have done some research before I posted my comment about releasing their harnesses.
Less than a third of the men reached the agreed rendezvous point, with some of them literally scraped to death along the desert floor because they couldn't unclip their parachutes.
I should have done some research before I posted my comment about releasing their harnesses.
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Southern UK
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From Dropzone:
Less than a third of the men reached the agreed rendezvous point, with some of them literally scraped to death along the desert floor because they couldn't unclip their parachutes.
I should have done some research before I posted my comment about releasing their harnesses.
Less than a third of the men reached the agreed rendezvous point, with some of them literally scraped to death along the desert floor because they couldn't unclip their parachutes.
I should have done some research before I posted my comment about releasing their harnesses.
I found a Youtube clip which does show parachutists using a QRB in 1941 but perhaps the fledgling SAS troops used another type. Go to 6:41. It appears that the leg loops don't disengage easily though.
Last edited by stevef; 20th Nov 2022 at 15:50.
Nutloose,
JW411 is the man to answer your wings and army question. In his book 'United in effort', the story of 53 Sqn there are a lot of references to Dick Maydwell, a Somerset Light Infantry officer who flew with 53 early in WW2 before transferring to the RAF. There is also a photo that shows an army officer, Major Hannay, and he has RAF wings on his army uniform.
JW411 is the man to answer your wings and army question. In his book 'United in effort', the story of 53 Sqn there are a lot of references to Dick Maydwell, a Somerset Light Infantry officer who flew with 53 early in WW2 before transferring to the RAF. There is also a photo that shows an army officer, Major Hannay, and he has RAF wings on his army uniform.
Back in the 60s I was introduced by my then Father in Law to a neighbour, Bob Seekings. A nicer guy you could not meet. Only later did I learn of his service with SAS
On the AMTC course at RAF North Luffenham before the Bucc OCU, we had the joy of being dragged at relatively low speed across the aerodrome grass. You were required to roll onto your back, find the Koch fastener restraint pins, pull them out and then flip the Koch fasteners to release the harness connection. No real drama, but the wretched Kochs always seemed to nip your fingers!
Down at SCSR RAF Mountbatten we add even more fun doing the same thing behind a launch.
Down at SCSR RAF Mountbatten we add even more fun doing the same thing behind a launch.
The following users liked this post:
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Southern UK
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the AMTC course at RAF North Luffenham before the Bucc OCU, we had the joy of being dragged at relatively low speed across the aerodrome grass. You were required to roll onto your back, find the Koch fastener restraint pins, pull them out and then flip the Koch fasteners to release the harness connection. No real drama, but the wretched Kochs always seemed to nip your fingers!
Down at SCSR RAF Mountbatten we add even more fun doing the same thing behind a launch.
Down at SCSR RAF Mountbatten we add even more fun doing the same thing behind a launch.
Sounds very similar to the training I did in the 1970's at what was then the Aeromedical and Safety Training School at BDN. The grass towing bit was on what seemed to be the wettest and boggiest bit of the airfield. Also did the water towing thing at Mountbatten, along with sea dinghy drills, as A&STS only had a small pool into which we were dropped from a sort of crane arrangement..
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
It is not just is live operations that pressonitis overrides commonsense.
We had a major exercise over France. It was probably the first where we made low-level attacks. The V Force, as a deterrent, was supposed to be all weather capable.
The exercise was in April and there was late season snow which blanketed the airfield and aircraft taxied with thick snow on the wings. There had been no vital need to have pressed on except for international prestige, competition between station cdrs etc.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 24th Nov 2022 at 16:59.
Surely the big difference here was that unlike all the above properly para trained people Stirling's bunch of hoodlums simply weren't trained at at all for that drop,not in the least. They were simply infanterymen given parachutes who under the influence of a charismatic shaman simply chucked themselved out of an aeroplane in a gale and hoped for the best.
The result would hardly be a surprise. Well, to most people, just maybe not Stirling.
Still, overall it worked - and how? - so ultimately thank God for Stirling, Mayne and the SAS.
The result would hardly be a surprise. Well, to most people, just maybe not Stirling.
Still, overall it worked - and how? - so ultimately thank God for Stirling, Mayne and the SAS.
Thread drift I know, as opposed to the "parachute drift" in that first exercise currently under discussion, but I am delighted to see that Pontius Navigator is back after what seems like a long break, posting with his usual high standard of knowledge on several threads, both on Military Aviation and Aviation History and Nostalgia.
Jack
Jack
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Southern UK
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thread drift I know, as opposed to the "parachute drift" in that first exercise currently under discussion, but I am delighted to see that Pontius Navigator is back after what seems like a long break, posting with his usual high standard of knowledge on several threads, both on Military Aviation and Aviation History and Nostalgia.
Jack
Jack
Me too. I was here for many years with a different username, but something screwed up a year or so ago, and despite the best efforts of the mods here and myself I can't access my old account, so I started a new one. In the meantime I'd started using "the other place", and was delighted to see that PN was over there. That other place has adopted a subscription only model, and the new administrator there refused to accept my subscription (he refunded it, no reason given). I'd certainly never posted anything contentious there, I think the new admin just wants it to be a "mates only" club, and felt my face didn't fit.
When I posted PN's username in a thread here yesterday, Senior Pilot was kind enough to edit my post to link PNs username properly. Perhaps that provided a notification, but whatever I am very pleased that PN is posting here again.
In the meantime I'd started using "the other place"
I’m relatively new here , sorry but where is this other place?
If it’s aviation related , I’d like to look please.
Sorry for the drift.
I’m relatively new here , sorry but where is this other place?
If it’s aviation related , I’d like to look please.
Sorry for the drift.