Was he Correct in Speaking Out.
Some history we might think about...
Marine Lt. Col. Stuart Scheller was fired from his job as commander of a training battalion a day after he posteda short video to Facebook where he demanded accountability from senior military leaders on the botched Afghanistan withdrawal. A few years ago Army Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman was protected and celebrated for doing the a similar thing.
Vindman compromised classified information in his scheme that pandered to the worst natures of partisan politicians that ultimately resulted in a failed Impeachment of a sitting President.
Vindman was fired from his position at the White House National Security Staff and was promoted to Colonel...which he declined and instead retired as a LtCol.
Assessing the damage caused by Scheller's conduct as compared to Vindman's in order to determine a path forward would be a daunting task if all of the collateral damage was included.
Scheller begins to look like a Choir Boy in Robes compared to Vindman misconduct.
Marine Lt. Col. Stuart Scheller was fired from his job as commander of a training battalion a day after he posteda short video to Facebook where he demanded accountability from senior military leaders on the botched Afghanistan withdrawal. A few years ago Army Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman was protected and celebrated for doing the a similar thing.
Vindman compromised classified information in his scheme that pandered to the worst natures of partisan politicians that ultimately resulted in a failed Impeachment of a sitting President.
Vindman was fired from his position at the White House National Security Staff and was promoted to Colonel...which he declined and instead retired as a LtCol.
Assessing the damage caused by Scheller's conduct as compared to Vindman's in order to determine a path forward would be a daunting task if all of the collateral damage was included.
Scheller begins to look like a Choir Boy in Robes compared to Vindman misconduct.
So where is your moral compass, the phrase “I was only following orders” springs to mind , I’m sure I’d have got further in military service if I hadn’t stood up to questionable decisions made by senior officers in my command chain. Don’t be a drone and learn some humanity.
At any cost?
You sure got that one right....and the Tab grows daily!
You sure got that one right....and the Tab grows daily!
It seems he hasn't resigned (presumably he could only do that if so invited). Stars & Stripes story 29/08/2021 :-
The 'legal requirements' cover a multitude of sins of course, leading if so ordered to the convening of a Court Martial, subject of course to the Exigencies of the Service.
Scape Goat, Martyr? You pays your money and makes your choice.
The video does not appear to be a resignation in a formal sense, though he says he plans to follow whatever the service’s legal requirements are.
Scape Goat, Martyr? You pays your money and makes your choice.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 30th Aug 2021 at 11:01.
How do you pronounce the fi bit?
fee, or fie, or what?
Only ever heard the full Latin version, although I do know about the Marines' connection.
For if Men are to be precluded from offering their sentiments on a matter , which may involve the most serious and alarming consequences that can invite the consideration of mankind . Reason is of no use to us . The freedom of speech may be taken away , and , dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep , to the slaughter .
George Washington speech to the Army 1783
George Washington speech to the Army 1783
Last edited by fitliker; 30th Aug 2021 at 19:08.
XX.....did you serve in he Military....ever?
From post 22 we find this:
Which I think makes XXmet of about your vintage in 'Nam, roughly.
Comment on the LTC in question. (I am retired O-5, Navy not Marine).
He was commissioned in 2004, at which time we'd been at war just about three years in Afghanistan and 1 in Iraq. My guess is he's deployed once to each. Maybe more than once. The number of cluster humps that crop up now and again in each theater are things within his experience.
Note: we have been doing war, and war-like stuff, in Afghanistan for longer then he's been serving. The current serving members who came in as I was doing my last tour and then leaving, and those who came in after that, have had the "opportunity" to go to at least two garden spots: Iraq and Afghanistan, and many of them have gone multiple times.
My read on his complaints vis a vis senior leadership: he's been around long enough, and got command. That means to me that he went to the months long Command and Staff school, either with the Marines or at Navy, Army, or Air Force Command and Staff .. With that in mind he'd be very familiar with the failures in leadership on high (in Viet Nam) that McMaster wrote about in Dereliction of Duty. And with some of the high level bad choices made in Iraq. Those are not being hidden, they are common currency.
I think he's aiming his public critique at those with stars, and above, and their staffs, and the State Department.
The entire planning process (strategic and theater level both) left the military operators in Afghanistan at the field level with a heck of a turd to try and polish, with the usual consequences: dead Marines because the higher ups dropped the ball on (in this case) how to do a phased withdrawal.
(Easy Street's hypothetical conversations ring a bell)
Should he have done this while he was the CO?
That's a hard call.
Every so often, as a commissioned officer, you run into a situation where you have a judgment call to make - do I bet my stripes on this? Do I stand up to the chain of command and call BS? I did it a few times but I didn't to it in the press: I went up the chain of command with my "why this is wrong" stuff. Didn't always go well. Once or twice it was appreciated, in the longer term.
He felt he was in such a situation - and I think those feelings were grounded in his loyalty to The Marines, writ large.
(IIRC, his current command position is a training unit; this critique might have a whole different tone if he was currently the CO of a rifle battalion).
For XXmet: I think I parse your position as "if you have issues with orders and command, run them up the chain of command via the correct procedures; you are an officer, you are supposed to know how to do that."
That's a valid take.
A couple of years ago a Navy Carrier CO got a lot of press when he went off script about how COVID was impacting the readiness of his ship. A different case of "Is this the bet your stripes moment?"
But I think it's in the same general family of "I see something wrong, what do I do about it?"
If this guy is willing to resign his commission over principle, or something along those lines, I hope he got his wife's support before he did this. She's got a stake in their future (IIRC, he has family).
FWIW: my dad was Signal Corps, Army, in the 1940's.
I don't know what the young Marines in his command think of this, but I am sure about one thing: they are watching and they are paying attention to what happens next. What are the consequences of him doing this? They'll pay attention to that as well.
Well, thank you for your kind words. I am new here, as the display says. I mean no harm.
For the cabal, I am a former Marine. Not a combat “peripheral” support troop pouge, MOS 2531. Radio Mule with a rifle. Not a wing wiper aviation guarantee pee-pee, but Infantry Line Company under a mustang'r E-8 come O-3 wild-ass mean SOB lunatic Co. Commander of India 3/1, 1968, who would just as soon knock you on your butt as look at you, and regularly did just that to elaborate on who's nuts were bigger. You didn't move fast enough when I spoke so your lip is now fat. Little talk, all walk. Probably retarded. I have mixed feelings to this day, but I breath....so...
For the cabal, I am a former Marine. Not a combat “peripheral” support troop pouge, MOS 2531. Radio Mule with a rifle. Not a wing wiper aviation guarantee pee-pee, but Infantry Line Company under a mustang'r E-8 come O-3 wild-ass mean SOB lunatic Co. Commander of India 3/1, 1968, who would just as soon knock you on your butt as look at you, and regularly did just that to elaborate on who's nuts were bigger. You didn't move fast enough when I spoke so your lip is now fat. Little talk, all walk. Probably retarded. I have mixed feelings to this day, but I breath....so...
Comment on the LTC in question. (I am retired O-5, Navy not Marine).
He was commissioned in 2004, at which time we'd been at war just about three years in Afghanistan and 1 in Iraq. My guess is he's deployed once to each. Maybe more than once. The number of cluster humps that crop up now and again in each theater are things within his experience.
Note: we have been doing war, and war-like stuff, in Afghanistan for longer then he's been serving. The current serving members who came in as I was doing my last tour and then leaving, and those who came in after that, have had the "opportunity" to go to at least two garden spots: Iraq and Afghanistan, and many of them have gone multiple times.
My read on his complaints vis a vis senior leadership: he's been around long enough, and got command. That means to me that he went to the months long Command and Staff school, either with the Marines or at Navy, Army, or Air Force Command and Staff .. With that in mind he'd be very familiar with the failures in leadership on high (in Viet Nam) that McMaster wrote about in Dereliction of Duty. And with some of the high level bad choices made in Iraq. Those are not being hidden, they are common currency.
I think he's aiming his public critique at those with stars, and above, and their staffs, and the State Department.
The entire planning process (strategic and theater level both) left the military operators in Afghanistan at the field level with a heck of a turd to try and polish, with the usual consequences: dead Marines because the higher ups dropped the ball on (in this case) how to do a phased withdrawal.
(Easy Street's hypothetical conversations ring a bell)
Should he have done this while he was the CO?
That's a hard call.
Every so often, as a commissioned officer, you run into a situation where you have a judgment call to make - do I bet my stripes on this? Do I stand up to the chain of command and call BS? I did it a few times but I didn't to it in the press: I went up the chain of command with my "why this is wrong" stuff. Didn't always go well. Once or twice it was appreciated, in the longer term.
He felt he was in such a situation - and I think those feelings were grounded in his loyalty to The Marines, writ large.
(IIRC, his current command position is a training unit; this critique might have a whole different tone if he was currently the CO of a rifle battalion).
For XXmet: I think I parse your position as "if you have issues with orders and command, run them up the chain of command via the correct procedures; you are an officer, you are supposed to know how to do that."
That's a valid take.
A couple of years ago a Navy Carrier CO got a lot of press when he went off script about how COVID was impacting the readiness of his ship. A different case of "Is this the bet your stripes moment?"
But I think it's in the same general family of "I see something wrong, what do I do about it?"
If this guy is willing to resign his commission over principle, or something along those lines, I hope he got his wife's support before he did this. She's got a stake in their future (IIRC, he has family).
FWIW: my dad was Signal Corps, Army, in the 1940's.
I don't know what the young Marines in his command think of this, but I am sure about one thing: they are watching and they are paying attention to what happens next. What are the consequences of him doing this? They'll pay attention to that as well.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 30th Aug 2021 at 20:59.
Lone,
It would also be in the same general area that I started my first tour in....we had adjacent AO's....and on occasions we worked out of An Hoa and flew some support missions for the Marines or do Medevac's for them when needed
A quick search came up a Battalion history for 1965-1969.
.
It would also be in the same general area that I started my first tour in....we had adjacent AO's....and on occasions we worked out of An Hoa and flew some support missions for the Marines or do Medevac's for them when needed
A quick search came up a Battalion history for 1965-1969.
.
As an aside, SAS, glad to see you back participating with us.
Missed you while you were gone.
Missed you while you were gone.
I'm of two minds on this. I believe he's acted with honest intentions. He believes he saw serious wrongs; presumably, he'd tried unsuccessfully to take them up the chain of command and believed he had no option. On the other hand, he could, presumably, have retired and then gone public. My gut feeling is that he should have done that. It's not for members of the military to push a barrow, no matter how justified, in the public press. Having said that, I can think of several recent exceptions here.
Since we're talking of Vietnam in passing. A mate of mine (National Serviceman) was kept there long after his tour because he'd been a witness to a fragging and was required for investigations which could have just as easily been carried out in Australia. Eventually, his wife wrote to the press; for him to do so would have been illegal. He was carpeted and asked "If you didn't like the way your company treated you in civilian life, would you write to the papers?" to which he replied "No, I'd tell them to shove their job up their arse."
Maybe that's what the LtCol should have done.
Since we're talking of Vietnam in passing. A mate of mine (National Serviceman) was kept there long after his tour because he'd been a witness to a fragging and was required for investigations which could have just as easily been carried out in Australia. Eventually, his wife wrote to the press; for him to do so would have been illegal. He was carpeted and asked "If you didn't like the way your company treated you in civilian life, would you write to the papers?" to which he replied "No, I'd tell them to shove their job up their arse."
Maybe that's what the LtCol should have done.
Interesting reading the messages above. The vast majority are obviously in agreement that the withdrawal was handled badly. How was the withdrawal poorly handled and what would you have done differently? I am aware of only one withdrawal that was accomplished with only one casualty and that was over a century ago.
However, I tend to agree with Prof Patrick Porter that much criticism of the withdrawal is a fig leaf for those who disagreed with it on principle or want to deflect from earlier failures:
Rough statecraft
The incompetence of departure deserves inquest. But it should not serve to deflect from the need to withdraw, nor obfuscate the true choice. The plausible alternative to leaving was not a stable exit followed by “muddling through” cheaply until somehow things got better. It was a futile war that would likely have intensified. This point escapes “Stayers”, outspoken former officials, security elites, commentators and allies who oppose withdrawal, who historically misjudged Afghanistan and support protracted interventions in the Middle East. Their narrow fixation on withdrawal and its execution, as though it were the primary error, deflects from their own complicity in profound failure, in Afghanistan and beyond
Last edited by Easy Street; 31st Aug 2021 at 08:24.
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The need to withdraw had been agreed some time before and so appropriate plans should have been made seems they were not
The method appears to have been effective within the limits posed by the situation
The ability to deal with missile attack so late in the process is to be admired but I suppose that was the expectation
Looking at what we leave behind seems to indicate we failed to induce the Taliban to become a government rather than a rebel force
As usual revolution impels splits amongst the various rebel groups
The method appears to have been effective within the limits posed by the situation
The ability to deal with missile attack so late in the process is to be admired but I suppose that was the expectation
Looking at what we leave behind seems to indicate we failed to induce the Taliban to become a government rather than a rebel force
As usual revolution impels splits amongst the various rebel groups
American military officers are to be pubilically non-political. They may vote and write letters to their congressman as a private citizen, if they like, just don’t bring their military position into it.
This major did no real service to any cause by asking for accountability of senior leaders. I don’t necessarily disagree with his points, but they are not for public expression by an American military officer. He got something off his chest, that’s all and if he is dismissed from service or resigns, it’s an appropriate outcome.
If he wants to be the next Ollie North, as a civilian, fine. One is too many, though, in my opinion.
This major did no real service to any cause by asking for accountability of senior leaders. I don’t necessarily disagree with his points, but they are not for public expression by an American military officer. He got something off his chest, that’s all and if he is dismissed from service or resigns, it’s an appropriate outcome.
If he wants to be the next Ollie North, as a civilian, fine. One is too many, though, in my opinion.
XXmet
In general I agree with the principal of your post. But there are many holes of how you have presented it. We are far beyond the Pappy" Boyington” style of leadership where you brawled with any man that did not jump to your orders.
“Military get the enemy” if only it was that simple. As you well know with Vietnam who, what, where, was your enemy and like Afghanistan the added “win the hearts and minds” just further muddied exactly who the enemy was.
To imply that “am telling you is that doing this weakens our combat soldiers. Maybe that's one reason they are blowing their friggen brains out in record numbers when they come home.” Military personnel are committing suicide because of an officer that is not loyal is rubbish and sullies the memory of these people and what has driven them to do this. It also disparages those men and women of the police, firefighters, ambo’s that have been unable to handle the traumatic events they have been in and succumbed to the pressure.
The world has moved on to what society was in WW1, WW11, Korea, Vietnam, and does not endorse leadership style of unquestioning loyalty. Just as you see Lt. Col. Stuart Scheller as a poor working cog in the machine the machine, if it still works as it did 50 years ago, is dated.
In general I agree with the principal of your post. But there are many holes of how you have presented it. We are far beyond the Pappy" Boyington” style of leadership where you brawled with any man that did not jump to your orders.
“Military get the enemy” if only it was that simple. As you well know with Vietnam who, what, where, was your enemy and like Afghanistan the added “win the hearts and minds” just further muddied exactly who the enemy was.
To imply that “am telling you is that doing this weakens our combat soldiers. Maybe that's one reason they are blowing their friggen brains out in record numbers when they come home.” Military personnel are committing suicide because of an officer that is not loyal is rubbish and sullies the memory of these people and what has driven them to do this. It also disparages those men and women of the police, firefighters, ambo’s that have been unable to handle the traumatic events they have been in and succumbed to the pressure.
The world has moved on to what society was in WW1, WW11, Korea, Vietnam, and does not endorse leadership style of unquestioning loyalty. Just as you see Lt. Col. Stuart Scheller as a poor working cog in the machine the machine, if it still works as it did 50 years ago, is dated.