USN T-45 Grounded After Pilots Strike
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Looks as though at least one cause for the T-45C oxy problems has been found.
Navy T-45 Trainers Will Return To Flight In July With Air Supply Fix 30 Jun 2017 Sydney J. Freedberg Jr.
Navy T-45 Trainers Will Return To Flight In July With Air Supply Fix 30 Jun 2017 Sydney J. Freedberg Jr.
"...One mystery was that the T-45 used the exact same OBOGS, built by Cobham, as other aircraft that were having no problems. Now, Navy investigators believe they have traced at least part of the problem: While the oxygen generator itself seems okay, the T-45s didn’t have anything installed to scrub excess moisture from the air going into the OBOGS...." List of fixes follows: Navy T-45 Trainers Will Return To Flight In July With Air Supply Fix « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary
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This is a never-ending story with puzzlements aplenty & it will keep Lara going nevertheless.
Toxic Air From T-45 Engine May Be Poisoning U.S. Navy Pilots | Defense content from Aviation Week
Toxic Air From T-45 Engine May Be Poisoning U.S. Navy Pilots | Defense content from Aviation Week
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Callsign of Capt. Sara Joyner was 'BATTLE AXE' when at top of the CAW - you go girl! 
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...3468025&rank=1
UPDATED: Navy Seeing Success Collecting Data on Physiological Episodes; Taps Former Air Wing Commander to Lead Effort 09 Aug 2017 Megan Eckstein
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...3468025&rank=1UPDATED: Navy Seeing Success Collecting Data on Physiological Episodes; Taps Former Air Wing Commander to Lead Effort 09 Aug 2017 Megan Eckstein
"...oxygen pressure monitors were put on several dozen T-45 trainers, and students and instructors have been flying with them all summer. “We’re getting those warnings that we never had before, so indications of low oxygen pressure in certain flight regimes,” he said. “What we’ve got to get away from is reliance on [individual perceptions and self-reporting], and more from data. So putting sensors on these airplanes so we can collect data and get a richer understanding of what’s going on.”
With the additional sensors on the planes, “we’re able to collect the kind of data that may – and I say may – give us some insight into what would be causing lack of oxygen to the pilot, which causes hypoxic events. So I think that’s all good. And there are other monitors that we’ve put in place in the T-45s. A whole host of what we would call refresh rates on the F-18s that we hope to bring back some youth in the Environmental Control System on the F-18, see if that helps reduce the number of PE events, pressurization events especially. So all of that data is being collected while we continue to fly, and we’re keeping a very close look on PE events and what happens,” Moran said. “We have response teams that go out now; if a pilot experiences an event, we know what protocols to provide to both take care of the aircrew but also to measure what happened to try to make some determination about root cause. Root-cause analysis continues, and it’s mining down into many different branches of evidence to find out what we can to try to determine what is the true cause. And we may find out that there are multiple causes here and we’ll have to address all of them.”
[Capt. Sara] Joyner comes to this new job from serving as the Navy Senate Liaison in the Office of Legislative Affairs, but her background is as an F/A-18 pilot who commanded Carrier Air Wing (CVW) 3 and Strike Fighter Squadron (VFA) 105. The 1989 U.S. Naval Academy graduate and Maryland native began her career flying the A-4E Skyhawk before moving to the Hornet. She has also worked in the air warfare directorate as the Joint Strike Fighter requirements officer – working directly for Moran, who was the air warfare director at the time – and she was named a senior fellow in the CNO Strategic Studies Group.
“She’s got all the right things. If I had to go pluck somebody out by their resume, I’d go, well that’s a pretty good pick right there,” Moran said. “I know her personally and have a lot of confidence in her. I know she’ll do a great job.” https://news.usni.org/2017/08/09/nav...vention-effort
With the additional sensors on the planes, “we’re able to collect the kind of data that may – and I say may – give us some insight into what would be causing lack of oxygen to the pilot, which causes hypoxic events. So I think that’s all good. And there are other monitors that we’ve put in place in the T-45s. A whole host of what we would call refresh rates on the F-18s that we hope to bring back some youth in the Environmental Control System on the F-18, see if that helps reduce the number of PE events, pressurization events especially. So all of that data is being collected while we continue to fly, and we’re keeping a very close look on PE events and what happens,” Moran said. “We have response teams that go out now; if a pilot experiences an event, we know what protocols to provide to both take care of the aircrew but also to measure what happened to try to make some determination about root cause. Root-cause analysis continues, and it’s mining down into many different branches of evidence to find out what we can to try to determine what is the true cause. And we may find out that there are multiple causes here and we’ll have to address all of them.”
[Capt. Sara] Joyner comes to this new job from serving as the Navy Senate Liaison in the Office of Legislative Affairs, but her background is as an F/A-18 pilot who commanded Carrier Air Wing (CVW) 3 and Strike Fighter Squadron (VFA) 105. The 1989 U.S. Naval Academy graduate and Maryland native began her career flying the A-4E Skyhawk before moving to the Hornet. She has also worked in the air warfare directorate as the Joint Strike Fighter requirements officer – working directly for Moran, who was the air warfare director at the time – and she was named a senior fellow in the CNO Strategic Studies Group.
“She’s got all the right things. If I had to go pluck somebody out by their resume, I’d go, well that’s a pretty good pick right there,” Moran said. “I know her personally and have a lot of confidence in her. I know she’ll do a great job.” https://news.usni.org/2017/08/09/nav...vention-effort
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 9th Aug 2017 at 22:16. Reason: URL
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Another SAFETY video from HOOK17 will have OBOGalogs innit with the new OXYchief speakin'.
Safety Centre Briefing
https://livestream.com/wab/tailhook2...deos/162480333
'2nd half' (starts 9min 30sec) of video will have 'CLUTCH' Joyner speaking about PEs along with another chap + questions.
Relevant questions about PEs stop at minute 36.
GRAPHICs: PE Investigation & Adjudication Process & F-18 + T-45C potential solutions
Safety Centre Briefing
https://livestream.com/wab/tailhook2...deos/162480333
'2nd half' (starts 9min 30sec) of video will have 'CLUTCH' Joyner speaking about PEs along with another chap + questions.
Relevant questions about PEs stop at minute 36.
GRAPHICs: PE Investigation & Adjudication Process & F-18 + T-45C potential solutions
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 12th Sep 2017 at 04:43. Reason: add graphic
Another SAFETY video from HOOK17 will have OBOGalogs innit with the new OXYchief speakin'.
Thank you...
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NavSpeak CAPT Sara Joyner excerpt from aforementioned HOOK '17 Video above excerpt. [did not realise this video not seen in IE 11]
CAPT Joyner USN Safety Centre Probe PE F-18/T-45C HOOK '17
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkpkIC7fPYI
CAPT Joyner USN Safety Centre Probe PE F-18/T-45C HOOK '17
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkpkIC7fPYI
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 4th Oct 2017 at 03:23. Reason: URL for video
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Studs are back sucking O2 like champs with extra supervision....
Navy trainers resume flying with oxygen monitoring upgrades 30 Sep 2017 Leigh Giangreco
Navy trainers resume flying with oxygen monitoring upgrades 30 Sep 2017 Leigh Giangreco
"The US Navy has cleared the Boeing T-45 Goshawk fleet to resume regular flights after a five-month grounding caused by contamination concerns over the system that generates and supplies oxygen to the training jet's pilots.
Student pilots can now resume training, but only on aircraft outfitted with a digital upgrade to the CRU-99 oxygen monitor, called the solid-state oxygen monitor (CRU-123), which provides information on temperature and oxygen pressure.
All T-45 aircraft will have the CRU-123 installed by the end of the second quarter of 2018, a navy spokesman tells FlightGlobal. As of 15 September, the Navy modified 111 of 170 active aircraft with CRU-123s.
After a June review revealed the T-45’s OBOGS does not have a water separator mechanism, which helps prevent contaminants releasing into the aircrew breathing air, the navy also decided to install the separators on the trainer aircraft. Out of the 197 T-45s in the Navy’s fleet, the service has installed a water separator on 146. None of the trainers are able to fly without the CRU-123 or water separator modifications, Joyner says...." https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...ring-u-441678/
Student pilots can now resume training, but only on aircraft outfitted with a digital upgrade to the CRU-99 oxygen monitor, called the solid-state oxygen monitor (CRU-123), which provides information on temperature and oxygen pressure.
All T-45 aircraft will have the CRU-123 installed by the end of the second quarter of 2018, a navy spokesman tells FlightGlobal. As of 15 September, the Navy modified 111 of 170 active aircraft with CRU-123s.
After a June review revealed the T-45’s OBOGS does not have a water separator mechanism, which helps prevent contaminants releasing into the aircrew breathing air, the navy also decided to install the separators on the trainer aircraft. Out of the 197 T-45s in the Navy’s fleet, the service has installed a water separator on 146. None of the trainers are able to fly without the CRU-123 or water separator modifications, Joyner says...." https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...ring-u-441678/
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Oxy - the gift that keeps on giving - at least for the T-45C. Yep and we do not fly with a cold nor when feeling unwell? (hangovers excepted? LOX the cure)
Cockpit Episodes Continue After Navy T-45s Resume Training Flights 29 Sep 2017 Hope Hodge Seck
LOX the cure)Cockpit Episodes Continue After Navy T-45s Resume Training Flights 29 Sep 2017 Hope Hodge Seck
"After a series of mitigating measures implemented in August, Navy T-45 Goshawks are back on duty as fighter trainers officials said Friday. But a handful of physiological episodes in the cockpit since then — the very problem that forced the Navy to place stringent limits on T-45s in April — have leaders taking a closer look at the role subjective human factors play in the in-flight incidents....
...New episodes
Since those measures were implemented in August, however, about four additional cockpit episodes have been documented. These episodes, Joyner said, share a telling commonality: in the two-seater aircraft, one of the aircrew experienced problems, and the other did not. In addition, she said, measurement devices reported that oxygen and air pressure remained at normal levels.
“When we went through, we were able to really review and find human factors and also physiological responses when people are under stress and how they breathe. And we’re working right now to make sure we’re incorporating that training as well for the aviators,” Joyner said. “So I would say more of what we’ve seen to date has been physiologically based response, but the aircraft overall has seemed to be well supporting the human in the loop.”
In addition, she said, new measurement devices have yet to find any evidence of cockpit air contaminants that would present a concern for aircrew. With recent incidents, Joyner said, evidence points to the human rather than the machine as the source of the issue....
...‘No Fixing the Human’
For those on the Navy’s team to diagnose and fix physiological episodes, the determination that human factors are sometimes the source presents its own levels of complexity....
...Efforts continue to pinpoint the cause of the surge in cockpit episodes affecting the T-45, as well as causes of hypoxia-like episodes in the F/A-18 Hornet. But as officials probe both human and mechanical factors contributing to problems in the air, it appears one outcome of the Navy’s assessment may be a more cautious approach to entering the cockpit in the first place.
“Maybe there are times when they shouldn’t go in a jet and they can self-recognize before they take off the ground that this is not the day for them to go airborne,” Joyner said. “It’s sort of a dual approach.”
https://www.defensetech.org/2017/09/...ining-flights/
...New episodes
Since those measures were implemented in August, however, about four additional cockpit episodes have been documented. These episodes, Joyner said, share a telling commonality: in the two-seater aircraft, one of the aircrew experienced problems, and the other did not. In addition, she said, measurement devices reported that oxygen and air pressure remained at normal levels.
“When we went through, we were able to really review and find human factors and also physiological responses when people are under stress and how they breathe. And we’re working right now to make sure we’re incorporating that training as well for the aviators,” Joyner said. “So I would say more of what we’ve seen to date has been physiologically based response, but the aircraft overall has seemed to be well supporting the human in the loop.”
In addition, she said, new measurement devices have yet to find any evidence of cockpit air contaminants that would present a concern for aircrew. With recent incidents, Joyner said, evidence points to the human rather than the machine as the source of the issue....
...‘No Fixing the Human’
For those on the Navy’s team to diagnose and fix physiological episodes, the determination that human factors are sometimes the source presents its own levels of complexity....
...Efforts continue to pinpoint the cause of the surge in cockpit episodes affecting the T-45, as well as causes of hypoxia-like episodes in the F/A-18 Hornet. But as officials probe both human and mechanical factors contributing to problems in the air, it appears one outcome of the Navy’s assessment may be a more cautious approach to entering the cockpit in the first place.
“Maybe there are times when they shouldn’t go in a jet and they can self-recognize before they take off the ground that this is not the day for them to go airborne,” Joyner said. “It’s sort of a dual approach.”
https://www.defensetech.org/2017/09/...ining-flights/
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Just saw this in the news
RIP to can only hope not related to above story's.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/local/2017/10/01/monroe-sheriff-plane-crash-reported-tellico-plains/721602001/
RIP to can only hope not related to above story's.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/local/2017/10/01/monroe-sheriff-plane-crash-reported-tellico-plains/721602001/
Thread Starter
Did you read the whole story, fallmonk? I did, and while this is very new as an event goes, the eyewitness statement leads me in a different direction. I will hold my peace and give it a few days to see what else arises.
Always a sad day when a "routine training flight" ends in us losing fellow pilots.
RIP.
Always a sad day when a "routine training flight" ends in us losing fellow pilots.
RIP.
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Info about pilots killed in T-45C crash whilst Oxy/Cabin Pressure not likely cause:
https://news.usni.org/2017/10/03/nav...-wallace-burch
https://news.usni.org/2017/10/03/nav...-wallace-burch
Salute!
TNX for "knowledgeable" posts, Wolf and Spaz.
The "eye witness" sighting indicates a low level nav mission. And one report from a local news outfit or sheriff stated wreckage was along a half mile of a road. So CFIT is not outta the question.
I wouldn't rule out the oxygen problem, as down real low and fast only one second of a problem can be fatal, as we know from our own personal experiences. Although there won't be much to analyze, toxicology is very advanced these days, and even back in the 80's we could tell lots about our departed buddies' physical state upon impact.
RIP
Gums sends...
TNX for "knowledgeable" posts, Wolf and Spaz.
The "eye witness" sighting indicates a low level nav mission. And one report from a local news outfit or sheriff stated wreckage was along a half mile of a road. So CFIT is not outta the question.
I wouldn't rule out the oxygen problem, as down real low and fast only one second of a problem can be fatal, as we know from our own personal experiences. Although there won't be much to analyze, toxicology is very advanced these days, and even back in the 80's we could tell lots about our departed buddies' physical state upon impact.
RIP
Gums sends...
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Interesting detail in the ongoing 'pressurization issues' for the Hornet family.
"The Navy has identified a valve that may be causing problematic pressure changes in F/A-18E and F Super Hornets and E/A-18G Growlers during flight, said a Navy officer who is spearheading the service’s efforts to stop the glaring trend of failures in critical aircraft systems.
“We’re not declaring victory, but we are declaring that we found something to fix and we’re fixing it,” said Capt. Sara Joyner, who has been selected for advancement to rear admiral.
Meanwhile, the Navy has determined that problems that led to the grounding of T-45 training jets earlier this year stem from the aircraft’s small engine not producing enough oxygen flow for the pilots, said Joyner...." https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-...nets-growlers/
“We’re not declaring victory, but we are declaring that we found something to fix and we’re fixing it,” said Capt. Sara Joyner, who has been selected for advancement to rear admiral.
Meanwhile, the Navy has determined that problems that led to the grounding of T-45 training jets earlier this year stem from the aircraft’s small engine not producing enough oxygen flow for the pilots, said Joyner...." https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-...nets-growlers/
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Detailed Report about USN PEs in Hornets & Goshawks: [fly a Hornet - get a FREE? Fenix Watch]
U.S. Military Tackles Vexing Issue of Physiological Episodes 27 Oct 2017
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...gical-episodes
https://www.ainonline.com/sites/defa..._hr_5959.4.jpg
U.S. Military Tackles Vexing Issue of Physiological Episodes 27 Oct 2017
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...gical-episodes
https://www.ainonline.com/sites/defa..._hr_5959.4.jpg
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 1st Nov 2017 at 07:18. Reason: watch
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Long detailed article about the PEs in Hornet family and Goshawk with mention of the Luke AFB F-35A issues and infographics:
Fear Of Losing Oxygen Puts U.S. Fighter Pilots On Edge | Defense content from Aviation Week
Fear Of Losing Oxygen Puts U.S. Fighter Pilots On Edge | Defense content from Aviation Week
