Blues about the Blues
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Blues about the Blues
Salute!
Just read some stuff about the fatal crash in early June.
Very down news. Last Blue fatality was a dude at Beaufurt that tried to pull too hard and apparently had GLOC. Was a turn too hard.
The Mt Home 'bird crash way back was a very clear of starting a maneuver a few hundred feet below the planned parameter due to field alt versus a base altitude.. The dude even called that he did not think he would make the maneuver when he was about the 270 deg part of the reverse Cuban Eight.
The USN is making lot of excuses on this crash. My students that went on to fly the Viper demo routines talked about the "go-no-go" criteria for some maneuvers. The Viper had an AoA limiter controlled by a switch. So the demo pilot would pull full back for the initial part of the "reverse Cuban eight" that was the demo when the jet first lifted off and headed up at a 30 deg or so angle. If he saw 18 deg AoA , then he was in the Cat III flight control limit and not the full Cat I mode.
I fully appreciate the efforts by the pilots to make a great performance. But sometimes ya gotta take some flak in the debrief and not have your wife attend the memorial service. The 'bird guy at Mt Home did the right thing and barely made it. I do not laud his failure to add field elevation and such to the maneuver, but he realized he was gonna prolly die and pulled the handle.
Gums sends...
Just read some stuff about the fatal crash in early June.
Very down news. Last Blue fatality was a dude at Beaufurt that tried to pull too hard and apparently had GLOC. Was a turn too hard.
The Mt Home 'bird crash way back was a very clear of starting a maneuver a few hundred feet below the planned parameter due to field alt versus a base altitude.. The dude even called that he did not think he would make the maneuver when he was about the 270 deg part of the reverse Cuban Eight.
The USN is making lot of excuses on this crash. My students that went on to fly the Viper demo routines talked about the "go-no-go" criteria for some maneuvers. The Viper had an AoA limiter controlled by a switch. So the demo pilot would pull full back for the initial part of the "reverse Cuban eight" that was the demo when the jet first lifted off and headed up at a 30 deg or so angle. If he saw 18 deg AoA , then he was in the Cat III flight control limit and not the full Cat I mode.
I fully appreciate the efforts by the pilots to make a great performance. But sometimes ya gotta take some flak in the debrief and not have your wife attend the memorial service. The 'bird guy at Mt Home did the right thing and barely made it. I do not laud his failure to add field elevation and such to the maneuver, but he realized he was gonna prolly die and pulled the handle.
Gums sends...
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Blue Angels and Fatigue
The mistakes that led to a deadly Blue Angels crash — and how the Navy wants to prevent them
By: Meghann Myers, September 15, 2016 (Photo Credit: U.S. Navy)
By: Meghann Myers, September 15, 2016 (Photo Credit: U.S. Navy)
Something was not right with the Marine flier at the stick of Blue Angels jet No. 6 on June 2, the day he split off for a routine maneuver and crashed into a field during an air show practice.
Shortly after takeoff Capt. Jeff Kuss, the opposing solo pilot, initiated a Split-S maneuver. But he was flying too fast and too low, according to a new Navy report. He called in over the radio that he'd turned off his afterburners, but he hadn't.
Shortly after takeoff Capt. Jeff Kuss, the opposing solo pilot, initiated a Split-S maneuver. But he was flying too fast and too low, according to a new Navy report. He called in over the radio that he'd turned off his afterburners, but he hadn't.
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Here is a report dated 15 Sep 2016 - I'll look for more....
46 page PDF of crash report: http://lmgcorporate.com/wsmv/documen...ngelsCrash.pdf (0.4Mb)
Navy: Pilot error primary cause of fatal Blue Angels crash WKRN web staff
Navy: Pilot error primary cause of fatal Blue Angels crash | WKRN News 2
_________________________________
Navy: Pilot error primary cause of fatal Blue Angels crash 15 Sep 2016 DAVID SHARP
http://www.stripes.com/news/us/navy-...crash-1.429316
46 page PDF of crash report: http://lmgcorporate.com/wsmv/documen...ngelsCrash.pdf (0.4Mb)
Navy: Pilot error primary cause of fatal Blue Angels crash WKRN web staff
""NASHVILLE, Tenn. (WKRN) – Pilot error is the primary cause of the Blue Angels jet crash that happened in Smyrna earlier this year, the U.S. Navy reports....
...According to the Navy report, Kuss started a maneuver known as the “Split S” at the wrong altitude. He was travelling too low and too fast and did not have enough time to correct himself.
“Capt. Kuss did not attempt any type of dive recovery procedure and he unsuccessfully ejected from the aircraft too late,” reads the report.
It went on to say that the crash had nothing to do with material failure of the jet, and the primary cause of the mishap was pilot error with weather and fatigue as contributing factors.
Kuss reportedly showed signs of fatigue earlier that day...."
...According to the Navy report, Kuss started a maneuver known as the “Split S” at the wrong altitude. He was travelling too low and too fast and did not have enough time to correct himself.
“Capt. Kuss did not attempt any type of dive recovery procedure and he unsuccessfully ejected from the aircraft too late,” reads the report.
It went on to say that the crash had nothing to do with material failure of the jet, and the primary cause of the mishap was pilot error with weather and fatigue as contributing factors.
Kuss reportedly showed signs of fatigue earlier that day...."
_________________________________
Navy: Pilot error primary cause of fatal Blue Angels crash 15 Sep 2016 DAVID SHARP
"...The report, released to The Associated Press under the Freedom of Information Act, indicates Kuss failed to disengage afterburners, contributing to the excessive speed, and failed to climb to the appropriate altitude, possibly because of cloud cover, giving him too little space to recover.
According to the report, the maneuver required a minimum altitude of 3,500 feet (1,067 meters) before the plane goes inverted at the top of the climb, and Kuss began the maneuver at 3,196 feet (974 meters). His maximum airspeed was 184 knots, above the recommended range between 125 and 135 knots.
"Airspeed higher than normal for the maneuver and the lower starting altitude limited decision-making opportunities and removed margins of error for corrections to the flight trajectory," Shoemaker wrote.
Kuss was recognized by teammates as among the most meticulous and professional pilots but that day missed some routine procedures, like logging his flight before takeoff, indicating he may have been fatigued, Shoemaker said. He had no previous military mishaps or flight violations.
Recommendations by the report to improve safety, such as eliminating the Split-S maneuver from the Blue Angels' show, have been implemented. Shoemaker also recommended the team's pilots, who put themselves under tremendous pressure to perform, take more breaks and speak up if they need rest...."
According to the report, the maneuver required a minimum altitude of 3,500 feet (1,067 meters) before the plane goes inverted at the top of the climb, and Kuss began the maneuver at 3,196 feet (974 meters). His maximum airspeed was 184 knots, above the recommended range between 125 and 135 knots.
"Airspeed higher than normal for the maneuver and the lower starting altitude limited decision-making opportunities and removed margins of error for corrections to the flight trajectory," Shoemaker wrote.
Kuss was recognized by teammates as among the most meticulous and professional pilots but that day missed some routine procedures, like logging his flight before takeoff, indicating he may have been fatigued, Shoemaker said. He had no previous military mishaps or flight violations.
Recommendations by the report to improve safety, such as eliminating the Split-S maneuver from the Blue Angels' show, have been implemented. Shoemaker also recommended the team's pilots, who put themselves under tremendous pressure to perform, take more breaks and speak up if they need rest...."
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 16th Sep 2016 at 09:55. Reason: add text + PDF URL
Poor fella.
Not that I've done display flying in aircraft with power to spare so I'm certainly not criticising, just observing that it appears there's an extra degree of difficulty in situations where you can accelerate significantly inverted prior to a pulldown - I'm sure I've read other accident reports where a similar thing occurred - right height or close to it but excessive speed leading to a greater looping radius on the way down.
Not that I've done display flying in aircraft with power to spare so I'm certainly not criticising, just observing that it appears there's an extra degree of difficulty in situations where you can accelerate significantly inverted prior to a pulldown - I'm sure I've read other accident reports where a similar thing occurred - right height or close to it but excessive speed leading to a greater looping radius on the way down.
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3.7Mb Four page PDF for Blue Angels at USNInews:
https://news.usni.org/wp-content/upl...t_Redacted.pdf
____________________
https://news.usni.org/2016/09/16/nav...ed-pilot-error
https://news.usni.org/wp-content/upl...t_Redacted.pdf
____________________
https://news.usni.org/2016/09/16/nav...ed-pilot-error
RP, it`s an argueable discussion,given that `fatigue` features in the cause,especially long-term fatigue,even short-term fatigue.I back that up with GW 1 experience,albeit not in a F-J.
Another point would be that the `Blues` don`t wear oxygen masks either,except on transits I assume.100% o2 can give one a nice lift when under stress/tired.
Another point is that,not reaching a gate-height/speed limit,and then performing a max-pull from a reverse- Cuban is really silly,as the `punters` have no idea of the `g` vs speed,or the problem as you approach the vertical, and if you are on the limit,it`s time you left,a la T`Bird.
I agree that the s-j`s may not have helped in this case,and I do respect the Blues` for their `close formations`,in various configurations,but it should be seen as a `show`,and not flown to ultimate limits`.It`s for the Grannies and kids,5 rows back from the mass of photographic anoracs in the front,with yard long-lenses....
Another point would be that the `Blues` don`t wear oxygen masks either,except on transits I assume.100% o2 can give one a nice lift when under stress/tired.
Another point is that,not reaching a gate-height/speed limit,and then performing a max-pull from a reverse- Cuban is really silly,as the `punters` have no idea of the `g` vs speed,or the problem as you approach the vertical, and if you are on the limit,it`s time you left,a la T`Bird.
I agree that the s-j`s may not have helped in this case,and I do respect the Blues` for their `close formations`,in various configurations,but it should be seen as a `show`,and not flown to ultimate limits`.It`s for the Grannies and kids,5 rows back from the mass of photographic anoracs in the front,with yard long-lenses....
Thread Starter
Salute!
I agree that the gee suit would be a non-player on this crash. Ditto for the GLOC Blue crash a few years back. The onset is more important than the constant gee.
The T-bird crash at Hill way back in 80's prolly involved a stess factor for the "high speed-low speed" pass by the solo dudes. This was only a few months before the infamous four-ship crash.
The Mountain Home solo bailout involved the manuever that always looked like the second leaf of a cloverleaf, or maybe a split-S. That was part of the Viper demo since day one. First time I saw it in 1979 I bet that the jet would not make it. An amazing jet, folks. The biggie was to be at the right speed to exploit the turn radius the FLCS would give you at 25 deg AoA. The Bug has no limits on AoA, best I know. But at a high AoA and wrong speed you will "mush". I have a hard time with being too fast other than having to pull real hard and then mushing.
Sad day for the Blues.
Gums sends...
I agree that the gee suit would be a non-player on this crash. Ditto for the GLOC Blue crash a few years back. The onset is more important than the constant gee.
The T-bird crash at Hill way back in 80's prolly involved a stess factor for the "high speed-low speed" pass by the solo dudes. This was only a few months before the infamous four-ship crash.
The Mountain Home solo bailout involved the manuever that always looked like the second leaf of a cloverleaf, or maybe a split-S. That was part of the Viper demo since day one. First time I saw it in 1979 I bet that the jet would not make it. An amazing jet, folks. The biggie was to be at the right speed to exploit the turn radius the FLCS would give you at 25 deg AoA. The Bug has no limits on AoA, best I know. But at a high AoA and wrong speed you will "mush". I have a hard time with being too fast other than having to pull real hard and then mushing.
Sad day for the Blues.
Gums sends...
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Can't keep the BLUES down for long.
Watch: Awesome Slow Motion Blue Angels Low Transition VIDEO
Blue Angels Manuever Manual: https://www.faa.gov/about/initiative...ers_Manual.pdf (8.3Mb)
PHOTO: https://i2.wp.com/fightersweep.com/w...craft-1-12.jpg
Watch: Awesome Slow Motion Blue Angels Low Transition VIDEO
"“Not a bad start to the day !” That’s what Blue Angels Lead Solo Ryan Chamberlain posted on his Instragram account along with an awesome video of this low transition.
This video give us an awesome perspective of what a Blue Angel #6 low transition looks like, particularly from the end of the runway. The video is taken from the end of Runway 6 at Miramar Marine Corps Air Station. At just the right moment, the video goes into slow motion so you can see just how close the jet is to the ground before pulling 70 degrees nose up into the vertical.
Yeah we kind of agree–never a bad way to start a day!"
https://fightersweep.com/6292/watch-...ow-transition/
This video give us an awesome perspective of what a Blue Angel #6 low transition looks like, particularly from the end of the runway. The video is taken from the end of Runway 6 at Miramar Marine Corps Air Station. At just the right moment, the video goes into slow motion so you can see just how close the jet is to the ground before pulling 70 degrees nose up into the vertical.
Yeah we kind of agree–never a bad way to start a day!"
https://fightersweep.com/6292/watch-...ow-transition/
PHOTO: https://i2.wp.com/fightersweep.com/w...craft-1-12.jpg
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 6th Oct 2016 at 18:06. Reason: photo & format
Okay - that is pretty damn - close (even accepting the distortion effect of the lens etc).
Made me very nervous to watch!
How close do they actually get?
Some of that looked like about 2 feet away...?
Made me very nervous to watch!
How close do they actually get?
Some of that looked like about 2 feet away...?
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Believe it or not....
How close together do the Blue Angels really fly? About the distance of your favorite sub sandwich! Corwin Haeck
How close together do the Blue Angels really fly? About the distance of your favorite sub sandwich! | KOMO
How close together do the Blue Angels really fly? About the distance of your favorite sub sandwich! Corwin Haeck
"Publicity materials for the Blue Angels say the precision Navy pilots fly their F/A-18 Hornets as close as 18 inches apart. Now a member of the elite team says that's nonsense. The margin is actually much smaller.
"We advertise 18 inches, but I've seen how close they get," says U.S. Marine Major Dusty Cook. Cook flies "Fat Albert," the C-130 cargo plane that supports the Hornets.
But he's ridden shotgun in the F/A 18s many times.
"Sometimes it's about six inches apart," he says. "And they're pretty good, they're pretty stable."..."
"We advertise 18 inches, but I've seen how close they get," says U.S. Marine Major Dusty Cook. Cook flies "Fat Albert," the C-130 cargo plane that supports the Hornets.
But he's ridden shotgun in the F/A 18s many times.
"Sometimes it's about six inches apart," he says. "And they're pretty good, they're pretty stable."..."
Mother of God.
Yes that looks like it'd be right; in that left hand turn when No.4 is under No.3's port wing, it looks like there's only about six inches between his canopy and No.3's aileron.
Do they only fly on days when it is very still?
I would have thought the slightest amount of turbs could result in a touch?
Yes that looks like it'd be right; in that left hand turn when No.4 is under No.3's port wing, it looks like there's only about six inches between his canopy and No.3's aileron.
Do they only fly on days when it is very still?
I would have thought the slightest amount of turbs could result in a touch?
