Cameron attacks race bias
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Cameron attacks race bias
Right - no stupid comments please!
I see in the BBC News Cameron attacks race bias in courts and universities - BBC News that DC has 'warned the police, the courts and the armed forces they also had to act' on the issue, noting that 'there are no black generals in the UK armed forces'.
Personally, I always thought that people were promoted in the UK Armed Forces purely on merit.....
I see in the BBC News Cameron attacks race bias in courts and universities - BBC News that DC has 'warned the police, the courts and the armed forces they also had to act' on the issue, noting that 'there are no black generals in the UK armed forces'.
Personally, I always thought that people were promoted in the UK Armed Forces purely on merit.....
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This strikes me as a bit like blaming universities for taking too many pupils from independent schools. It's not the fault of the universities, or the armed forces, that not enough highly educated and aspirational black young people either exist, or apply to them. It goes much further back, into the education system.
Of course, if there were concrete evidence that black personnel were discriminated against for promotion that would be another thing. But I very much doubt it, not in the last 20 years at least. Before that, perhaps.
Of course, if there were concrete evidence that black personnel were discriminated against for promotion that would be another thing. But I very much doubt it, not in the last 20 years at least. Before that, perhaps.
Never mind, in a few years time the whinge will be regarding the scarcity of "Generals, racial minority, female, lesbian, handicapped". All at the same time, of course.
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Does your comment really stand up, Beagle? I'm no longer serving (you too?) but I ask because I never met a single black officer in all the time I was, overseas Officer Cadets excepted. Not one. Likewise there was not a single female pilot/nav/rockape/aircrew of any kind except stewardess or nurse. So while I'm neutral on the rights of what Mr Cameron said, I'm prepared to believe there's a case to answer.
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Surely the solution then is conscription for black & minority males & females (50% of each) with a moratorium on Caucasians until the ratio exactly matches that of the national ethnic makeup.......?
It's not possible to make people join otherwise. The armed forces today bend over backwards to make themselves inclusive - ethnicity, sexual orientation, TG, it's open to all, we're even on Stonewall's list of gay friendly employers, but there's only so much we can do without resorting to compulsion (BTW I was only jesting in the first para......)
ShotOne: T**v Ed***ds was flying Jags from around 1990 - in his case he'd joined he Regt but not finished the JROC due to losing most of his toes as the instructors had made him stand in a flooded trench for so long to try & break him rather than have 'a n****r in the RAF Regt'. He couldn't continue in his chosen branch & the RAF offered him his choice to make up for the brutal fashion in which he'd been treated - he chose pilot, & a nicer chap you couldn't hope to meet. Hard to believe thant kind of stuff went on but I guess its legacy is one of the reasons why the numbers are so low.
There was H***y J***son on C130s too, so a few about although not many.
It's not possible to make people join otherwise. The armed forces today bend over backwards to make themselves inclusive - ethnicity, sexual orientation, TG, it's open to all, we're even on Stonewall's list of gay friendly employers, but there's only so much we can do without resorting to compulsion (BTW I was only jesting in the first para......)
ShotOne: T**v Ed***ds was flying Jags from around 1990 - in his case he'd joined he Regt but not finished the JROC due to losing most of his toes as the instructors had made him stand in a flooded trench for so long to try & break him rather than have 'a n****r in the RAF Regt'. He couldn't continue in his chosen branch & the RAF offered him his choice to make up for the brutal fashion in which he'd been treated - he chose pilot, & a nicer chap you couldn't hope to meet. Hard to believe thant kind of stuff went on but I guess its legacy is one of the reasons why the numbers are so low.
There was H***y J***son on C130s too, so a few about although not many.
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Shot one, first, it is also black, Asian, minority and ethnic I think.
Knew a black helicopter pilot at Tengah over 40 years ago. An Asian or Spanish (Lopez) engineering officer, same time. Indians too.
A BEagle said, in most cases it depends on quality and merit.
I know they quotes percentages with RN and. RAF around 2-3%, but what is the percentage in UK? More relevant what is the percentage from traditional recruiting areas?
If the percentage of suitable app!licants presentinbv at the AFCO is loiw then In-service figures will be low.
In our village we have some Indian s and Chinese in the restaurant trade, we have no 'free' BAMEs that would wish to be recruited. The whole ethnic population is an insignificant percentage.
The BBC is very much metro centric and only on TV do we see these ethnic minorities that IMHO are over represented. At least we have a female MP.
Knew a black helicopter pilot at Tengah over 40 years ago. An Asian or Spanish (Lopez) engineering officer, same time. Indians too.
A BEagle said, in most cases it depends on quality and merit.
I know they quotes percentages with RN and. RAF around 2-3%, but what is the percentage in UK? More relevant what is the percentage from traditional recruiting areas?
If the percentage of suitable app!licants presentinbv at the AFCO is loiw then In-service figures will be low.
In our village we have some Indian s and Chinese in the restaurant trade, we have no 'free' BAMEs that would wish to be recruited. The whole ethnic population is an insignificant percentage.
The BBC is very much metro centric and only on TV do we see these ethnic minorities that IMHO are over represented. At least we have a female MP.
Thread Starter
ShotOne, yours must have been rather a different world to mine as I knew several other-than-white aircrew officers in my time, although they were rather in the minority in terms of number.
One chap (of Jamaican background) was struggling a bit when learning to fly formation in the Gnat at Valley (didn't we all?), but went on a trip with the squadron boss (of Asian descent). We had weird formation call-signs back then, such as 'Milvus', 'Outward'...and 'Sambar' - so the two of them set off giggling like schoolgirls at ATC's reaction to their chosen call-sign.... It seems that the boss had decided on 'Sambo'
rather than 'Sambar', which broke the ice; the previously struggling student relaxed and subsequently flew an excellent trip!
I was lucky enough to go through Brawdy with him and his sense of humour; he later went on to have a very good FJ career.
One chap (of Jamaican background) was struggling a bit when learning to fly formation in the Gnat at Valley (didn't we all?), but went on a trip with the squadron boss (of Asian descent). We had weird formation call-signs back then, such as 'Milvus', 'Outward'...and 'Sambar' - so the two of them set off giggling like schoolgirls at ATC's reaction to their chosen call-sign.... It seems that the boss had decided on 'Sambo'
rather than 'Sambar', which broke the ice; the previously struggling student relaxed and subsequently flew an excellent trip! I was lucky enough to go through Brawdy with him and his sense of humour; he later went on to have a very good FJ career.
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Served with a guy in Germany who was subjected to some of the most outrageously overt racism I'd ever encountered, literally bullied out of the Air Corps. I begged him to report it, but he just RTU'd and that was that. Bloody shame. It happens, be in no doubt.
Harry Whittle on 33 springs to mind. I know of a single RSM- don't recall the regiment.
CG
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Last edited by charliegolf; 31st Jan 2016 at 16:35. Reason: Checking my facts
BEagle wrote:
Doesn't this gentleman count?
Rear-Admiral Amjad_Hussain CB RN
.......DC has 'warned the police, the courts and the armed forces they also had to act' on the issue, noting that 'there are no black generals in the UK armed forces'.
Rear-Admiral Amjad_Hussain CB RN
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I also feel that the OH is an issue too. Ethnic wives in a white club, or lack of ethnic females (males) in the base area.
My English successor at a Jock station tried to get out of the job, his third at that station, as his chances of meeting an English girl were vanishingly small. He made WG CDR, don't know if he got the biurd though.
My English successor at a Jock station tried to get out of the job, his third at that station, as his chances of meeting an English girl were vanishingly small. He made WG CDR, don't know if he got the biurd though.
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Oh Stacker, don't spoil a good thread with facts. Anyway he is not a general.
Anyway, too succeed in the Army I thought you needed the right name too.
Anyway, too succeed in the Army I thought you needed the right name too.
Shot One
When did you leave? The first operational RAF female pilot was in 1990....
The RAF Regt remains, as far as I know, the only regular outfit to be 'male only' (not sure about the Reserve / Aux units) - listened to a wonderful presentation from a Rock Officer on why that should remain so. The look on the (female) course directors face during some of the more detailed explanation was a joy to behold!
When did you leave? The first operational RAF female pilot was in 1990....
The RAF Regt remains, as far as I know, the only regular outfit to be 'male only' (not sure about the Reserve / Aux units) - listened to a wonderful presentation from a Rock Officer on why that should remain so. The look on the (female) course directors face during some of the more detailed explanation was a joy to behold!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Wrath, my daughter was in 2503 about 15 years ago. There wasvcan issue on weapons but she still qualified on GPMG, mortar and grenades. On an exercise in USA she was a section commander of a joint section. For tuppence she would have shot a couple of spams (different story).
A RAFC Cranwell IOT Engineer officer contemporary of mine (1976) - at the time of his promotion to air commodore in 2000 at age 47 - became the highest ranking black officer ever to serve in the UK Armed Forces.
You couldn't meet a nicer, more polite, modest, talented officer who was awarded the Sword of Honour for the year - most of us saw him as the frontrunner for the award early on. It is worth remembering that there were 3 x 16-week entries each with up to 120 cadets a year in those days.
His appointments included Phantom SEngO, Phantom OC Eng & Supply Wg, Head of The RAF Presentation Team and Director of Specialist Ground Training at RAFC Cranwell.
His bio appears in 100 Great Black Britons which has the following entry:
Asked about the issue of being black in the UK Armed Forces, his response was: "I certainly encountered no barriers to joining. And I have reflected back over the period I have been in the Service on whether I have encountered discrimination and can honestly say I cannot identify any occasion when I thought this might have been a case in point. I try to educate people by simply being who I am".
Says it all really - opportunities on merit have been there for at least 40 years for those that deserve it.
You couldn't meet a nicer, more polite, modest, talented officer who was awarded the Sword of Honour for the year - most of us saw him as the frontrunner for the award early on. It is worth remembering that there were 3 x 16-week entries each with up to 120 cadets a year in those days.
His appointments included Phantom SEngO, Phantom OC Eng & Supply Wg, Head of The RAF Presentation Team and Director of Specialist Ground Training at RAFC Cranwell.
His bio appears in 100 Great Black Britons which has the following entry:
Asked about the issue of being black in the UK Armed Forces, his response was: "I certainly encountered no barriers to joining. And I have reflected back over the period I have been in the Service on whether I have encountered discrimination and can honestly say I cannot identify any occasion when I thought this might have been a case in point. I try to educate people by simply being who I am".
Says it all really - opportunities on merit have been there for at least 40 years for those that deserve it.
I'm reminded of General Colin Powell who was once being interviewed by a British journalist. The former four star general is the son of an immigrant who came to the USA from Jamaica. He was asked what he thought he might have been had his parents moved to the UK, instead of the US. "Probably a warrant officer in the British Army" came the reply.
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Interesting to note that of the (very few) examples put forward to contradict my post, several have suffered extreme and shocking discrimination, in one case to the point of actual bodily harm. Beagle: call sign "Sambo"?? I rest my case.
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Why do I think DC actually is alluding to no senior Muslim officers . . .
I hope the comment stays, but suspect it won't.
It seems we must be seen to bend over backwards to accommodate them everywhere. Why should the Armed Forces be any different?
I hope the comment stays, but suspect it won't.
It seems we must be seen to bend over backwards to accommodate them everywhere. Why should the Armed Forces be any different?
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R****t P***t flew F4s.
Dez D*****e ended up as Staish at Wittering retiring as an Air Commodore in 2010 (and a nicer man and better instructor you'd likely never meet).
Dez would turn finls in the JP with a stude and call: "Finals, 3 Greens, 1 Black, 1 White."
Dez D*****e ended up as Staish at Wittering retiring as an Air Commodore in 2010 (and a nicer man and better instructor you'd likely never meet).
Dez would turn finls in the JP with a stude and call: "Finals, 3 Greens, 1 Black, 1 White."
Last edited by ExAscoteer; 31st Jan 2016 at 18:44.
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ShatOne, can you actually read? If so, try reading my post more carefully, even if that does require you to move your lips at the same time...
It was the fact that they were both 'other than white' and were giggling at the response they were receiving from ATC with their distinctly non-PC choice of call-sign which broke the ice....
It was the fact that they were both 'other than white' and were giggling at the response they were receiving from ATC with their distinctly non-PC choice of call-sign which broke the ice....