Cameron attacks race bias
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Stacker your Admiral retired in 2012, there are no current black VSOs as far as I'm aware? The point the PM is making is not that we shouldn't promote on merit it's rather that ethnic minorities are deterred from joining because we are institutionally racist. I'm not convinced that as individuals there are many serving racists but as an organisation?
I would also add that the timing of this smacks of distraction politics. Make some controversial statement targeting some high profile British instutions just as he's in difficult negotiations with the EU! Got to love politicians!
I would also add that the timing of this smacks of distraction politics. Make some controversial statement targeting some high profile British instutions just as he's in difficult negotiations with the EU! Got to love politicians!
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I suspect DC is wanting to see a more 'inclusive/representative' Mil Service Population (to mirror our wider society) which is probably driven by the following headline stats published by the MOD ...
More detailed MOD stats ...
See Page 6.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...r15_update.pdf
See Pages 6 & 7
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ctober15-a.pdf
At a simple level ... Joining the UK Armed Services still doesn't seem to be an attractive proposition (for whatever reason) for a majority of BAME UK citizens ...
It's not surprising therefore that BAME VSO's are a rarity.
PS. I suspect the above overall 7% (2.3% for Officers) is higher than it was say 20 years ago ?
Originally Posted by MOD
Black, Asian Minority and Ethnic (BAME) personnel comprised 7.0 per cent of the UK Regular Forces on 1 April 2015, decreasing slightly compared to 7.1 per cent at 1 April 2014 and 1 April 2013. This representation differs for officers (2.3 per cent) and other ranks (8.0 per cent).
At 1 April 2015 the proportion of BAME personnel in the RN/RM was 3.5 per cent, the Army was 10.2 per cent and the RAF was 2.1 per cent. Between 1 April 2013 and 1 April 2015, the proportion of BAME personnel in each of the three Services has remained broadly stable.
At 1 April 2015 the proportion of BAME personnel in the RN/RM was 3.5 per cent, the Army was 10.2 per cent and the RAF was 2.1 per cent. Between 1 April 2013 and 1 April 2015, the proportion of BAME personnel in each of the three Services has remained broadly stable.
See Page 6.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...r15_update.pdf
See Pages 6 & 7
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ctober15-a.pdf
At a simple level ... Joining the UK Armed Services still doesn't seem to be an attractive proposition (for whatever reason) for a majority of BAME UK citizens ...
It's not surprising therefore that BAME VSO's are a rarity.
PS. I suspect the above overall 7% (2.3% for Officers) is higher than it was say 20 years ago ?
Last edited by CoffmanStarter; 1st Feb 2016 at 15:42.
I wonder if it is a coincidence that this has sprung up very recently after the race row surrounding the Academy Awards?
Being male, Caucasian and of average appearance and build I find it hard to see the argument through the eyes of others. My suspicion is that, if I were from a minority group, I would be extremely angry about the fact that if I should achieve something noteworthy I would be viewed by many as just fulfilling a quota.
Positive discrimination, if that is what the PM is encouraging, can be just as damaging as the other kind.
I am a staunch believer in the policy of 'best person for the job'. I do not believe the RAF is in any way racist/sexist/(insert other)ist and that people are and should be selected on merit.
Maybe I'm an idealist or maybe it's because I have never experienced racism but I just wish we could recruit the best and reward the best accordingly.
BV
Being male, Caucasian and of average appearance and build I find it hard to see the argument through the eyes of others. My suspicion is that, if I were from a minority group, I would be extremely angry about the fact that if I should achieve something noteworthy I would be viewed by many as just fulfilling a quota.
Positive discrimination, if that is what the PM is encouraging, can be just as damaging as the other kind.
I am a staunch believer in the policy of 'best person for the job'. I do not believe the RAF is in any way racist/sexist/(insert other)ist and that people are and should be selected on merit.
Maybe I'm an idealist or maybe it's because I have never experienced racism but I just wish we could recruit the best and reward the best accordingly.
BV
I really don't think that we should get too worked up about what the PM has said about this subject, or indeed about any other. He is a verbal conjurer and is professional enough to know that if you want to distract people away from subject A, then you say something provocative about subject B.
We would do better to concern ourselves with subject A, just as he should concern himself with the bunch of politically motivated men and women who are waiting and watching for the opportunity to take his crown.
BTW, don't mention bunch, I just did but I think I've got away with it...
We would do better to concern ourselves with subject A, just as he should concern himself with the bunch of politically motivated men and women who are waiting and watching for the opportunity to take his crown.
BTW, don't mention bunch, I just did but I think I've got away with it...
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Are you really the same person, Beagle, who delivered me a pious lecture on "netiquette" some time back?? What a pointlessly rude post. if you really believe the use of the term "sambo" is evidence of lack of discrimination, frankly it's a waste of key-strokes discussing the issue with you.
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Don't look inward guys!
Pass the question back to Camoron.. How many black Prime Ministers have we had?
Hmmm, Oh dear! None so far!
Pass the question back to Camoron.. How many black Prime Ministers have we had?
Hmmm, Oh dear! None so far!
Beagle I fear you are wasting your breath, but "shat" has a certain charm.
DC must have forgotten about the black Stn Cdr he met last autumn then. A very bright, charming and thoroughly capable chap I first met years ago as a holding officer. Didn't need political quotas to get his station.
And then there was the Asian, I believe Gp Capt, now left for academia/think tanks, but he made a name for himself as a real thinker on COIN issues. Don't think he needed quotas either.
Then again, I don't suppose the politicians, that bastion of ethic diversity, will be happy until Dianne Abbot is CDS; even then they'd probably find fault with the appointment.
And then there was the Asian, I believe Gp Capt, now left for academia/think tanks, but he made a name for himself as a real thinker on COIN issues. Don't think he needed quotas either.
Then again, I don't suppose the politicians, that bastion of ethic diversity, will be happy until Dianne Abbot is CDS; even then they'd probably find fault with the appointment.
ethic diversity is right, even if Freudian or spoolchicker.
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I always look on the likes of this as people are promoted on merit, not on colour, and to do so simply degrades the system.
Served with quite a few people who were none Caucasian and they were all great, Sengo and Jengo in Germany were both Indian, I felt for the Jengo though as his religion prevented him from eating pork, which wasn't fun for him on exercise as the Hotlocks were invariable compo sausages etc, so he went without, which on a cold morning during a long exercise you needed something warm and tasty inside you.
Served with quite a few people who were none Caucasian and they were all great, Sengo and Jengo in Germany were both Indian, I felt for the Jengo though as his religion prevented him from eating pork, which wasn't fun for him on exercise as the Hotlocks were invariable compo sausages etc, so he went without, which on a cold morning during a long exercise you needed something warm and tasty inside you.
One point perhaps to consider is that almost any VSO's now would have joined 25 years plus ago when the "ethnic minorities" were much smaller, so one wouldn't expect them now to match the current wider population percentages. Furthermore, there were then also third generation issues regarding obtaining some higher level clearances.
It is also ridiculous within the camaraderie of the military, where Scots, Welsh,Irish and others of recognisable ancestry are all fair game for stereotypical leg pulling, not to have that privilege extended across to others,who in turn can bounce back counter irreverent epithets. That is common in any close community and should not be (often deliberately) confused with racism.
I think Colin Powell's "What if " response could also perhaps be taken as a back -handed complement as to the quality of British Army Warrant Officers.
It is also ridiculous within the camaraderie of the military, where Scots, Welsh,Irish and others of recognisable ancestry are all fair game for stereotypical leg pulling, not to have that privilege extended across to others,who in turn can bounce back counter irreverent epithets. That is common in any close community and should not be (often deliberately) confused with racism.
I think Colin Powell's "What if " response could also perhaps be taken as a back -handed complement as to the quality of British Army Warrant Officers.
ShotOne, looks like you have... shot yourself in the foot. If you read carefully you will note that Beagle has stated that the callsign 'Sambo' was decided by two non-white pilots; racial discrimination? I think not.
In my 39 years in the RAF, I have known many black or female pilots. All of a very high caliber. Moreover, I had a very good relationship with my Asian navigator who called me 'white trash'. I'll not tell you what I called him. However, like those two pilots with the callsign 'Sambo' we too giggled. It was all great fun and was very anti political correctness.
So ShotOne, open your eyes. Pilots are picked on merit and not prejudice.
In my 39 years in the RAF, I have known many black or female pilots. All of a very high caliber. Moreover, I had a very good relationship with my Asian navigator who called me 'white trash'. I'll not tell you what I called him. However, like those two pilots with the callsign 'Sambo' we too giggled. It was all great fun and was very anti political correctness.
So ShotOne, open your eyes. Pilots are picked on merit and not prejudice.
Front cover of Accountancy Age a few years back, Asian gp capt, most senior qualified accountant in the RAF. First met him when he was OC Accts at Valley in the 80s-great guy
I'm thinking more along the lines of what chugalug said, this is more a political exercise, perhaps not to distract anyone, but certainly an attempt to burnish his 'everyman' image. Being a tory will unfortunately risk an accusation of being a typical tory toff, will always suggest being happy to discriminate against all minority groups. So this'll be an attempt to prove otherwise before anyone even says anything more direct and specific. Not that anyone will necessarily. but it won't do any harm to publicly demonstrate his credentials like this.
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Ken Scott
Utter bolleaux. I was on the J-Course with T.E. We were all made to stand in freezing water filled trenches on a week long defence exercise, we all suffered 'trench foot' like symtoms to one degree or another. T.E had poor circulation that made him particularly vulnerable. I'm not defending the actions of the Regt and Medical staff during that exercise, they were appalling and had there not been Crown Immunity at that time they would have had their asses sued. BUT, this was NOTHING to do with racism. As others have said, T.E. was a top bloke and I'm very glad he had sucess after the severe problems the J-Course caused him.
T**v Ed***ds was flying Jags from around 1990 - in his case he'd joined he Regt but not finished the JROC due to losing most of his toes as the instructors had made him stand in a flooded trench for so long to try & break him rather than have 'a n****r in the RAF Regt'.
Re callsigns - we had a West Indian captain when I was on tankers. On one exercise he was highly amused that the codename he had been allocated (entirely at random from 1 Group) was "Spade".
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To have promote minority groups to SO level they have to be officers - and that's the real problem - there are a significant number of non-white OR's but how many join the Officer Corps in any UK Service?
Not many is my guess - and it's probably because if you are from a minority and have a good education there are a lot more doors open to you in Civvy Street.
If the Services and the Govt are serious they need to get more minorities in to start with - then we will have some people who are good enough to rise to the very top
Interestingly for a lot of Black Americans the US services were perceived through the 50's onwards as much more of an Equal Opportunity Employer than Big Business so many more decently educated people joined up = more minority SO's by the 80's
Not many is my guess - and it's probably because if you are from a minority and have a good education there are a lot more doors open to you in Civvy Street.
If the Services and the Govt are serious they need to get more minorities in to start with - then we will have some people who are good enough to rise to the very top
Interestingly for a lot of Black Americans the US services were perceived through the 50's onwards as much more of an Equal Opportunity Employer than Big Business so many more decently educated people joined up = more minority SO's by the 80's