Germany to choose between CH-53K and CH-47F
Thread Starter
From Jane's back in December, sets out some of the issues in greater detail....
EUROPE, Germany
Date Posted: 02-Dec-2015
Jane's Defence Weekly
Germany seeks CH-53 replacement, as
retirement brought forward
Gareth Jennings
Donauworth
The German Air Force (GAF) has begun the process of selecting a new medium/heavy-lift helicopter as it looks to phase its ageing VFW-Sikorsky CH-53G/GS/GA Stallions out of service earlier than originally planned.
Speaking at the site of Airbus Helicopters' Donauworth facility on 30 November, Wolfgang Schoder, CEO of Airbus Helicopters Germany and Head of Light and Governmental Programs,said that the German military is in the very early stages of a replacement process for the 1970s legacy CH-53, but that he expects the Ministry of Defence (MoD) to issue a solicitation next year for a new platform to enter service in the early 2020s.
"We see no investment in further upgrades [to the CH-53]. It is [Airbus Helicopters'] responsibility
to keep it flying through to about 2020, but we are close to the customer and we hear about specifications for a replacement," Schoder said, adding, "We are in constructive discussions with the German MoD [Ministry of Defence] as to our role in such a [replacement] programme."
Airbus Helicopters is currently in the process of putting the last four of 40 CH-53G/GS platforms through the CH-53GA modernisation effort (the remaining 26 CH-53G/GS helicopters in the GAF fleet will remain at that standard for a total fleet of 66 CH-53G/GS/GS platforms).
The CH-53GA is an enhanced variant of the CH-53G/GS, with improvements made primarily to the avionics, communications, and electronic warfare systems, and the integration of a forward looking infrared (FLIR) sensor turret. An internal fuel tank has also been fitted, extending the helicopter's range to 1,200 km, and the airframe has been refurbished.
With the upgrade, it was expected that the CH-53GA-variant would remain operational with the GAF through to at least 2030 and possibly beyond. However, with the upgrade programme set to conclude in 2016 the GAF has now decided to replace the fleet with a new type entirely from 2020 to 2025.
According to Schoder, the German MoD is looking at two helicopter types only, with either the Sikorsky CH-53K King Stallion or Boeing CH-47F Chinook to be selected. "There are only two platforms that can fulfil the requirements," he said. "While the German MoD is now in the very early stages [of a replacement programme] what we can say is that this will not be a new development project. Germany wants a fast, low-risk procurement, which really means 'off-the-shelf'".
In terms of the role of Airbus Helicopters in any future acquisition programme, Schoder said that it is too early to talk about possible license production in Germany, and that this might not be the best solution for the GAF.
"I am not sure that this [license production] model would make sense - what's the value in it for the German customer? The value that [Airbus Helicopters] can bring can be in certifying and qualifying [the platform] to German standards. Also, including German suppliers in the programme would addvalue in that it would provide [the GAF] with an independent supply chain," he added.
While Airbus Helicopters' role in any future procurement programme would be defined by the German MoD, Schoder noted that the company "is in permanent discussions" with both Sikorsky and Boeing, saying, "Both are aware that Airbus Helicopters will be interested to support the German customer for such a procurement. I don't know of many military programmes where there is no national customisation."
The CH-53K is currently being developed for the US Marine Corps (USMC), and Sikorsky is targeting Germany and Israel as current operators of the legacy CH-53 as its best near-term options for potential future sales. With the USMC set to acquire about 200 such helicopters, Germany would benefit from economies of scale in terms of procurement, sustainment, and support should it opt for this platform.
Having made its debut flight on 27 October, the CH-53K will be able to carry three times as much
weight as the legacy Sikorsky CH-53E, and has been designed to perform better in 'hot and high' conditions. It is set to enter service with the USMC in 2019 which would suit Germany's proposed timelines (assuming that slots could be found in the production line), but this is dependent on a near-flawless flight test campaign between now and then.
Already in service or on order with operators around the world, the latest-variant CH-47F Chinook is a proven platform with recent combat use in Afghanistan and beyond. With the US Army alone set to acquire about 200 new-build and remanufactured helicopters, and with an upgrade path in place through to a projected US out-of-service date of 2060, the CH-47F would also offer the GAF impressive economies of scale and support solutions.
For both the CH-53K and CH-47F, the GAF should be able to tap into the Pentagon's multi-year procurement process for a reduced acquisition cost, though the precise extent of any such savings would not be known until the conclusion of negotiations, which would follow a platform announcement.
ANALYSIS
The GAF currently operates all of Germany's CH-53 helicopters, with the type having transferred over from the army to pave the way for the NHIndustries NH90 Tactical Transport Helicopter. In recent years, Germany's CH-53 fleet has seen deployments to Afghanistan, Bosnia Hercegovina, the Congo, Kosovo, and Pakistan.
The latest plan to bring forward the CH-53 retirement date from 2030 to about 2020 is not the first time in recent years that Germany has looked at fielding a new helicopter type to satisfy its medium/heavy-lift requirements.
As recently as 2010 Boeing revealed a proposal derived from its CH-47 Chinook design that was dubbed the European Future Transport Helicopter or Transport Helicopter Concept. This new helicopter would represent a scaled-up version of the current CH-47 design, taking the maximum gross weight from around 24,000 kg to around 36,000 kg. It also featured a fuselage that was stretched by 5 m, and four-bladed tandem rotors.
While the project never progressed to the stage where industrial collaboration agreements were settled, Eurocopter touted the same design which it billed as the Heavy Transport Helicopter. An initial operating capability was planned for 2018, with a stated requirement for up to 120 helicopters.
It appears that financial restraints killed-off that particular effort and while the tight timelines this time around all but preclude a clean-sheet developmental design, the German MoD appears intent this on seeing the requirement through to the fielding of a new operational helicopter type.
EUROPE, Germany
Date Posted: 02-Dec-2015
Jane's Defence Weekly
Germany seeks CH-53 replacement, as
retirement brought forward
Gareth Jennings
Donauworth
The German Air Force (GAF) has begun the process of selecting a new medium/heavy-lift helicopter as it looks to phase its ageing VFW-Sikorsky CH-53G/GS/GA Stallions out of service earlier than originally planned.
Speaking at the site of Airbus Helicopters' Donauworth facility on 30 November, Wolfgang Schoder, CEO of Airbus Helicopters Germany and Head of Light and Governmental Programs,said that the German military is in the very early stages of a replacement process for the 1970s legacy CH-53, but that he expects the Ministry of Defence (MoD) to issue a solicitation next year for a new platform to enter service in the early 2020s.
"We see no investment in further upgrades [to the CH-53]. It is [Airbus Helicopters'] responsibility
to keep it flying through to about 2020, but we are close to the customer and we hear about specifications for a replacement," Schoder said, adding, "We are in constructive discussions with the German MoD [Ministry of Defence] as to our role in such a [replacement] programme."
Airbus Helicopters is currently in the process of putting the last four of 40 CH-53G/GS platforms through the CH-53GA modernisation effort (the remaining 26 CH-53G/GS helicopters in the GAF fleet will remain at that standard for a total fleet of 66 CH-53G/GS/GS platforms).
The CH-53GA is an enhanced variant of the CH-53G/GS, with improvements made primarily to the avionics, communications, and electronic warfare systems, and the integration of a forward looking infrared (FLIR) sensor turret. An internal fuel tank has also been fitted, extending the helicopter's range to 1,200 km, and the airframe has been refurbished.
With the upgrade, it was expected that the CH-53GA-variant would remain operational with the GAF through to at least 2030 and possibly beyond. However, with the upgrade programme set to conclude in 2016 the GAF has now decided to replace the fleet with a new type entirely from 2020 to 2025.
According to Schoder, the German MoD is looking at two helicopter types only, with either the Sikorsky CH-53K King Stallion or Boeing CH-47F Chinook to be selected. "There are only two platforms that can fulfil the requirements," he said. "While the German MoD is now in the very early stages [of a replacement programme] what we can say is that this will not be a new development project. Germany wants a fast, low-risk procurement, which really means 'off-the-shelf'".
In terms of the role of Airbus Helicopters in any future acquisition programme, Schoder said that it is too early to talk about possible license production in Germany, and that this might not be the best solution for the GAF.
"I am not sure that this [license production] model would make sense - what's the value in it for the German customer? The value that [Airbus Helicopters] can bring can be in certifying and qualifying [the platform] to German standards. Also, including German suppliers in the programme would addvalue in that it would provide [the GAF] with an independent supply chain," he added.
While Airbus Helicopters' role in any future procurement programme would be defined by the German MoD, Schoder noted that the company "is in permanent discussions" with both Sikorsky and Boeing, saying, "Both are aware that Airbus Helicopters will be interested to support the German customer for such a procurement. I don't know of many military programmes where there is no national customisation."
The CH-53K is currently being developed for the US Marine Corps (USMC), and Sikorsky is targeting Germany and Israel as current operators of the legacy CH-53 as its best near-term options for potential future sales. With the USMC set to acquire about 200 such helicopters, Germany would benefit from economies of scale in terms of procurement, sustainment, and support should it opt for this platform.
Having made its debut flight on 27 October, the CH-53K will be able to carry three times as much
weight as the legacy Sikorsky CH-53E, and has been designed to perform better in 'hot and high' conditions. It is set to enter service with the USMC in 2019 which would suit Germany's proposed timelines (assuming that slots could be found in the production line), but this is dependent on a near-flawless flight test campaign between now and then.
Already in service or on order with operators around the world, the latest-variant CH-47F Chinook is a proven platform with recent combat use in Afghanistan and beyond. With the US Army alone set to acquire about 200 new-build and remanufactured helicopters, and with an upgrade path in place through to a projected US out-of-service date of 2060, the CH-47F would also offer the GAF impressive economies of scale and support solutions.
For both the CH-53K and CH-47F, the GAF should be able to tap into the Pentagon's multi-year procurement process for a reduced acquisition cost, though the precise extent of any such savings would not be known until the conclusion of negotiations, which would follow a platform announcement.
ANALYSIS
The GAF currently operates all of Germany's CH-53 helicopters, with the type having transferred over from the army to pave the way for the NHIndustries NH90 Tactical Transport Helicopter. In recent years, Germany's CH-53 fleet has seen deployments to Afghanistan, Bosnia Hercegovina, the Congo, Kosovo, and Pakistan.
The latest plan to bring forward the CH-53 retirement date from 2030 to about 2020 is not the first time in recent years that Germany has looked at fielding a new helicopter type to satisfy its medium/heavy-lift requirements.
As recently as 2010 Boeing revealed a proposal derived from its CH-47 Chinook design that was dubbed the European Future Transport Helicopter or Transport Helicopter Concept. This new helicopter would represent a scaled-up version of the current CH-47 design, taking the maximum gross weight from around 24,000 kg to around 36,000 kg. It also featured a fuselage that was stretched by 5 m, and four-bladed tandem rotors.
While the project never progressed to the stage where industrial collaboration agreements were settled, Eurocopter touted the same design which it billed as the Heavy Transport Helicopter. An initial operating capability was planned for 2018, with a stated requirement for up to 120 helicopters.
It appears that financial restraints killed-off that particular effort and while the tight timelines this time around all but preclude a clean-sheet developmental design, the German MoD appears intent this on seeing the requirement through to the fielding of a new operational helicopter type.
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You would have thought a Stallion replacement for the current Stallion fleet with the supporting infrastructure more or less already in place, and bearing in mind their experience with the type would be the way to go.
Nut loose,
I'd be very, very dubious that much, if any, legacy CH-53 kit/experience will be compatible with -53K. The KS was optimised by the USMC, who's remaining -53s are quite different from the GAF cabs. Yes, it folds into the same space but pretty much everything else is different.
From a Project point of view the CH-47F is a far safer option. The UK, Dutch, Italians & Spanish all fly it, as does the US Army in Germany. There are opportunities for huge Through Life Cost savings by sharing facilities (e.g., the Dutch have used the RAF sims at Benson for years), building the airframes in Europe (through the Finmeccanica licence) and benefiting from joint efforts on TTP development and future upgrades. By comparison, the -53K is high risk, likely to be more expensive and there are no European partners.
The three key factors will likely be the requirements (which seems to confirm that both are suitable), the cost model and which way the French go.
I'd be very, very dubious that much, if any, legacy CH-53 kit/experience will be compatible with -53K. The KS was optimised by the USMC, who's remaining -53s are quite different from the GAF cabs. Yes, it folds into the same space but pretty much everything else is different.
From a Project point of view the CH-47F is a far safer option. The UK, Dutch, Italians & Spanish all fly it, as does the US Army in Germany. There are opportunities for huge Through Life Cost savings by sharing facilities (e.g., the Dutch have used the RAF sims at Benson for years), building the airframes in Europe (through the Finmeccanica licence) and benefiting from joint efforts on TTP development and future upgrades. By comparison, the -53K is high risk, likely to be more expensive and there are no European partners.
The three key factors will likely be the requirements (which seems to confirm that both are suitable), the cost model and which way the French go.
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Sunk costs will be a consideration, but so too will the fact that the Kilo's average procurement unit cost is over 4X that of the F-model Hook ($117M projected vs. $27M as of December 2013, per the latest available Selected Acquisition Reports).
The existing CH-53G infrastructure may be of limited relevance to the Kilo, given that it's a completely new aircraft under the skin (which, being composite rather than aluminum, is also new...).
The existing CH-53G infrastructure may be of limited relevance to the Kilo, given that it's a completely new aircraft under the skin (which, being composite rather than aluminum, is also new...).
Thread Starter
Arrived in Germany
It has arrived today, in Germany ahead of next month's ILA,
cheers
cheers
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
In the meantime, it would seem Israel is opting for the CH-47.
IDF to recommend Boeing helicopter over Sikorsky - Israel News - Jerusalem Post
IDF to recommend Boeing helicopter over Sikorsky - Israel News - Jerusalem Post
Given the Dutch, Italians, Greeks, Spanish and UK all operate the CH47, and no other European nation operates the CH53 you'd have thought it was an easy decision.
However, given the unit price of the 53K, it solves Germany's defence spend shortfall overnight and may even get them to the magic 2%......
However, given the unit price of the 53K, it solves Germany's defence spend shortfall overnight and may even get them to the magic 2%......
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From all the numbers it seems that the only advantage of the 53K is sheer payload and the ability to fold itself into a pretzel on demand. Everything else favors the 47.
Indeed, and that's underslung payload only. The internal payloads of both platforms are both pretty much the same, so unless you have a dedicated point-to-point outsized heavy-lift mission (such as the USMC does), it is hard to see the point of the CH-53K.
Thread Starter
Please forgive me but that is a silly question. Anyhow you might as well ask why do we operate the Chinook ? Because we like they needed a heavy lift capability
Anyhow The Bundeswehr - Heeresflieger at the time had a heavy lift requirment and can carry a fair amount of troops across the battlefield in the 60s. Bearing in mind the height of the cold war / NATO commitment etc. Plus their legacy workhorse(s) from 50s (when allowed to arm up) consisted of SIkorsky CH-34G and Piasecki H-21 Shawnee a.k.a Flying Banana.
They evaluated the following
Aerospatiale Super Frelon,
Boeing CH-47A and even the Vertol 107
Sikorsky CH-54A Skycrane (there was one in country)
They sent team over to Stratford to evaluate the CH-53A
all according to my book
P.S Austrian air force bought 2 CH-53A used briefly in the 70s then they ended up in Israel as I believe they were too expensive and large to operate.
cheers
Anyhow The Bundeswehr - Heeresflieger at the time had a heavy lift requirment and can carry a fair amount of troops across the battlefield in the 60s. Bearing in mind the height of the cold war / NATO commitment etc. Plus their legacy workhorse(s) from 50s (when allowed to arm up) consisted of SIkorsky CH-34G and Piasecki H-21 Shawnee a.k.a Flying Banana.
They evaluated the following
Aerospatiale Super Frelon,
Boeing CH-47A and even the Vertol 107
Sikorsky CH-54A Skycrane (there was one in country)
They sent team over to Stratford to evaluate the CH-53A
all according to my book
P.S Austrian air force bought 2 CH-53A used briefly in the 70s then they ended up in Israel as I believe they were too expensive and large to operate.
cheers
Last edited by chopper2004; 3rd Apr 2018 at 21:46.
Thread Starter
IDF/AF renews interest in hybrid a/c
In the meantime, it would seem Israel is opting for the CH-47.
IDF to recommend Boeing helicopter over Sikorsky - Israel News - Jerusalem Post
IDF to recommend Boeing helicopter over Sikorsky - Israel News - Jerusalem Post
After show of force, Israel renews interest in advanced hybrid aircraft - Israel News - Jerusalem Post
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Thanks Chopper - it wasn't a "silly question" -I couldn't remember ever hearing or reading anything about how they came to that choice. As the Chinook became a more common choice for airforces I presumed there was some special reason (especially as the costs appear so different)
But well done for getting in a plug in for your book!
I shall keep an eye out for it at the h second hand book fairs
But well done for getting in a plug in for your book!
I shall keep an eye out for it at the h second hand book fairs
Or if you want to operate from ship....that is a also a key difference. The 47 is unwieldy for normal shipboard operations. Agree for most land based forces the 47 is well suited and cheaper.
Thread Starter
CH-53K makes historic flight in Germany
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While the CH-53 can fold itself to fit into a ship's hangar while a CH-47 cannot, the level of disassembly required for air transport (in either C-17 or C-5) is roughly the same for both the -53 and -47, but slightly favoring the -47. So if shipboard use is not a factor, that self-fold feature is also not a factor. And incidentally, that self fold feature comes at a cost (in terms of dollars, weight, complexity, maintainability, etc) and is not free. So if the feature is not needed, why pay its cost?
Ken V,
Indeed - The gearbox/head of the -53K weighs the same as a UH60. That's what power folding complexity costs you. The K is designed to float about in a maritime environment. The RAF has successfully operated the -47 off carriers for years. Yes there is a maintenance penalty - but it's a small price to pay. The Chinook is only "unwieldy" in terms of storage. The power and tandem rotor layout make ship ops very straightforward (I've landed one downwind with the boat doing 25+kts with no issue whatsoever - aside from landing in my own spray...) and in spread deck space terms, the -53K is actually bigger than a Chinook! The -47 has a 60ft disk, the -53 79ft (!), whereas, give an inch or two, their both the small over-all length (about 100ft). Germany says that both aircraft meet the Threshold Spec, indicating that a massive outsize single point load is not a key discriminator, nor is prolonged maritime operations. In which case, why on earth would they pick the high risk option (-53K) which, at best guess, will be 2.5 times the unit cost of a -47F and substantially more expensive to run? Will have to be a hell of a discount/offset.....
Indeed - The gearbox/head of the -53K weighs the same as a UH60. That's what power folding complexity costs you. The K is designed to float about in a maritime environment. The RAF has successfully operated the -47 off carriers for years. Yes there is a maintenance penalty - but it's a small price to pay. The Chinook is only "unwieldy" in terms of storage. The power and tandem rotor layout make ship ops very straightforward (I've landed one downwind with the boat doing 25+kts with no issue whatsoever - aside from landing in my own spray...) and in spread deck space terms, the -53K is actually bigger than a Chinook! The -47 has a 60ft disk, the -53 79ft (!), whereas, give an inch or two, their both the small over-all length (about 100ft). Germany says that both aircraft meet the Threshold Spec, indicating that a massive outsize single point load is not a key discriminator, nor is prolonged maritime operations. In which case, why on earth would they pick the high risk option (-53K) which, at best guess, will be 2.5 times the unit cost of a -47F and substantially more expensive to run? Will have to be a hell of a discount/offset.....