Colditz - ITV
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Colditz - ITV
I watched Colditz last night and could recognise many on the POW threads and it was interesting to see how MI 9 was drawn in to story line. One thing however jarred. Shirts.
The shirts they wore all seemed wrong. I asked our resident guru and he suggested this might be a good topic.
Danny, just watching Colditz on ITV 3, can you tell me if you had collar attached shirts in WW 2 and if the shirts had two button down pockets.
I know the ones we had in 1961 were double cuffed, collar detached without pocket and bib style front.
to which Danny replied:
We (officers or airmen) never had collar-attached shirts in WWII, always collar-studs and separate collars. Van Heusen also did (officers) blue shirts with detachable collars and (button-on) cuffs, but these may have only come in post-war. The advantage here was that you could make a shirt last quite a long time by washing your collars and cuffs (or getting the batman to do them) in your room washbasin.
I do not remember any pockets on blue shirts with or without buttons.
We had 3 issued in 1960, one on, one in the laundry and one to put on. Six collars, all heavily starched and changed every 3-4 days. NAAFI did a line in plastic collars. They looked very realistic, shiny like the starched ones but wipe clean.
Danny went on:
My first blue collar-attached shirts were unofficial nylon things and I think I bought them in 1960.
This would go like wildfire on Open Post, if you put it on !
As well as the wrong RAF shirt, Army OR didn't get shirts until 1943 or 1944 and always wore blouses to the neck.
Danny also mentioned tropical dress but that is a whole different game.
The shirts they wore all seemed wrong. I asked our resident guru and he suggested this might be a good topic.
Danny, just watching Colditz on ITV 3, can you tell me if you had collar attached shirts in WW 2 and if the shirts had two button down pockets.
I know the ones we had in 1961 were double cuffed, collar detached without pocket and bib style front.
to which Danny replied:
We (officers or airmen) never had collar-attached shirts in WWII, always collar-studs and separate collars. Van Heusen also did (officers) blue shirts with detachable collars and (button-on) cuffs, but these may have only come in post-war. The advantage here was that you could make a shirt last quite a long time by washing your collars and cuffs (or getting the batman to do them) in your room washbasin.
I do not remember any pockets on blue shirts with or without buttons.
We had 3 issued in 1960, one on, one in the laundry and one to put on. Six collars, all heavily starched and changed every 3-4 days. NAAFI did a line in plastic collars. They looked very realistic, shiny like the starched ones but wipe clean.
Danny went on:
My first blue collar-attached shirts were unofficial nylon things and I think I bought them in 1960.
This would go like wildfire on Open Post, if you put it on !
As well as the wrong RAF shirt, Army OR didn't get shirts until 1943 or 1944 and always wore blouses to the neck.
Danny also mentioned tropical dress but that is a whole different game.
I didnt see this but hope to catch up with it later. I remember as a young PO in 1965 being in a group getting a pep talk on what was expected of an officer from an Air Commodore who told us we should always wear a clean collar every day. Obviously you missed that talk P-N 
I bought my first collar attached Van Heusen shirt in 1965 so I could wear it in shirt sleeve order, as the standard bib front shorts didnt have epaulettes for rank slides.
Uniform details on TV/films have got better over the years but obviously not quite right yet. Things have improved since the costume department on The Longest Day couldnt quite decide which way the diagonal stripes went on the DFC and AFC for Richard Burton's uniform, so compromised and had the DFC going one way and the AFC the other!
I bought my first collar attached Van Heusen shirt in 1965 so I could wear it in shirt sleeve order, as the standard bib front shorts didnt have epaulettes for rank slides.Uniform details on TV/films have got better over the years but obviously not quite right yet. Things have improved since the costume department on The Longest Day couldnt quite decide which way the diagonal stripes went on the DFC and AFC for Richard Burton's uniform, so compromised and had the DFC going one way and the AFC the other!
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TTN, you do me a disservice
I said we were ISSUED with 6 and only permitted to send two a week to laundry, hence the attraction of plastic. Dhobi was a non-starter as we had no laundry facilities to starch collars and indeed any such item was likely to walk. Clearly any such misappropriation of clothing was done by those cadets that failed to graduated.
Worse than collars were drawers, cellular, string, boxer like underpants with drawer cord. And better the blue and white stripped wincyette pyjamas.
I said we were ISSUED with 6 and only permitted to send two a week to laundry, hence the attraction of plastic. Dhobi was a non-starter as we had no laundry facilities to starch collars and indeed any such item was likely to walk. Clearly any such misappropriation of clothing was done by those cadets that failed to graduated.
Worse than collars were drawers, cellular, string, boxer like underpants with drawer cord. And better the blue and white stripped wincyette pyjamas.
The best pieces of service issue kit were the Egyptian cotton towels.
Most of the issue kit from my enlistment was replaced quickly, once I had moved to 'big boys' air force and I never did get to wear the white waistcoat that I was required to buy with my No: 5.
I was conned into buying some KD in UK before going to the steamy Far East. On turning up at HQFEAF with 'moonie' knees, wool long socks and 'canvas' KD, the senior officer to whom I reported, called one of his female officers into the office. "Ah Monica" he says "could you take Pilot Officer Old Duffer down to Changi village and sort him out with some wearable uniform". Thereafter until the day I left regular service, I bought all my kit 'made to measure' from tailors in Singapore or Hong Kong. Unfortunately, when as a reservist and needing new kit, the Far East option was no longer available and the current uniform is pretty dire!
Old Duffer
Most of the issue kit from my enlistment was replaced quickly, once I had moved to 'big boys' air force and I never did get to wear the white waistcoat that I was required to buy with my No: 5.
I was conned into buying some KD in UK before going to the steamy Far East. On turning up at HQFEAF with 'moonie' knees, wool long socks and 'canvas' KD, the senior officer to whom I reported, called one of his female officers into the office. "Ah Monica" he says "could you take Pilot Officer Old Duffer down to Changi village and sort him out with some wearable uniform". Thereafter until the day I left regular service, I bought all my kit 'made to measure' from tailors in Singapore or Hong Kong. Unfortunately, when as a reservist and needing new kit, the Far East option was no longer available and the current uniform is pretty dire!
Old Duffer
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OD, I wrote to Au Wai Lam and my KD was posted to AS I.
PS, like OD, I was conned into buying one set of "KD" in Sleaford. The shirt was sort of green and the below the knee shorts in a brown with cross over belt and two buckles.
Fortunately we had a week stop over in Aden so got properly kitted there. When we arrived at Butterworth we found the base commander had decreed our shade of KD for RAAF and RAF to wear a paler version. He was given a stiff ignoring.
When we went Stone the mess at Akrotiri did a bulk buy of material and the station tailor did a roaring trade.
PS, like OD, I was conned into buying one set of "KD" in Sleaford. The shirt was sort of green and the below the knee shorts in a brown with cross over belt and two buckles.
Fortunately we had a week stop over in Aden so got properly kitted there. When we arrived at Butterworth we found the base commander had decreed our shade of KD for RAAF and RAF to wear a paler version. He was given a stiff ignoring.
When we went Stone the mess at Akrotiri did a bulk buy of material and the station tailor did a roaring trade.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 29th Nov 2015 at 11:09.
Not only the shirts that shouted "wrong"; saluting a superior officer while capless, mysteriously later acquiring said caps, overcoats, and indeed complete new uniforms.
I think that the Wehrmacht should at least have been credited with maintaining a fully stocked uniform store at Colditz, not only for all three British Services, but those of other Allied nations as well!
The demolition jobs on various parts of the castle's fabric, both above and below ground level, never seemed to require making good against even casual observation, let alone German ferrets.
USA style railway carriages entering a London terminus.
So par for the course I guess, and I will no doubt learn to enjoy future episodes...
I think that the Wehrmacht should at least have been credited with maintaining a fully stocked uniform store at Colditz, not only for all three British Services, but those of other Allied nations as well!
The demolition jobs on various parts of the castle's fabric, both above and below ground level, never seemed to require making good against even casual observation, let alone German ferrets.
USA style railway carriages entering a London terminus.
So par for the course I guess, and I will no doubt learn to enjoy future episodes...
Last edited by Chugalug2; 29th Nov 2015 at 11:05.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
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Chug, I believe a lot of uniform came from stores captured at Dunkirk. However before the evacuation lots uniforms had had acid poured over them.
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I'm not sure whether I'm now going OT or not, as I was never in Colditz [] and haven't seen the recent re-broadcast.
However, KD ... Singapore, 1967 ... and on arrival one was given a week off to acclimatise and purchase uniform, so to the best of my recollection the FEAF Joining Instructions made it clear we didn't need to bring stuff from UK. Accordingly, to Tengah Village where the necessary was ordered, made and delivered within the space of a couple of days. Curiously [or not] there seemed to be different shades of material depending on where you sourced your kit ... and that included the Station Tailor and Supply Sqn! Matters were further complicated by those who had kitted in Borneo, Hong Kong or elsewhere in FEAF ... and they all faded differently! I can still recall one mate in ATC who's HK-sourced KD faded to almost white, whilst others wore kit that was almost brown.
I don't recall any attempt at enforcing standardisation.
] and haven't seen the recent re-broadcast.However, KD ... Singapore, 1967 ... and on arrival one was given a week off to acclimatise and purchase uniform, so to the best of my recollection the FEAF Joining Instructions made it clear we didn't need to bring stuff from UK. Accordingly, to Tengah Village where the necessary was ordered, made and delivered within the space of a couple of days. Curiously [or not] there seemed to be different shades of material depending on where you sourced your kit ... and that included the Station Tailor and Supply Sqn! Matters were further complicated by those who had kitted in Borneo, Hong Kong or elsewhere in FEAF ... and they all faded differently! I can still recall one mate in ATC who's HK-sourced KD faded to almost white, whilst others wore kit that was almost brown.
I don't recall any attempt at enforcing standardisation.
MPN11
Meanwhile on the other side of the island, on 48 we had a skipper, the great Shaun Fielding ( sadly recently RIP ) who was on his 3rd Changi tour and his KD had become gleaming white. I guess senior Flt Lts never got 'Jo-ed' for parades so were able to avoid close inspection!
PN, thanks for that interesting input. At least some of the equipment abandoned by the BEF served useful to other than the Wehrmacht. So they did have some form of uniform stores at Colditz? I thought I was being clever, too clever by far it seems!
B48N, I too managed to avoid Station Parades at RAF Changi, though quite how, being a mere F/O, I'm not sure. Those who did testified to the colour range on parade, from brown through khaki to off-white. Shorts length varied from "Empire Builders" to scarcely decent.
As others have said, Changi Village was a first point of call, with more elaborate additions available later in Hong Kong (Samtanis, Nathan Rd, Kowloon, in my case). I had already been kitted out though with the Empire Building Kit for the 242OCU Night Flying Detachment to Idris. Got shot of it ASAP, the FE tailors outperforming all UK competition, state or private enterprise!
B48N, I too managed to avoid Station Parades at RAF Changi, though quite how, being a mere F/O, I'm not sure. Those who did testified to the colour range on parade, from brown through khaki to off-white. Shorts length varied from "Empire Builders" to scarcely decent.
As others have said, Changi Village was a first point of call, with more elaborate additions available later in Hong Kong (Samtanis, Nathan Rd, Kowloon, in my case). I had already been kitted out though with the Empire Building Kit for the 242OCU Night Flying Detachment to Idris. Got shot of it ASAP, the FE tailors outperforming all UK competition, state or private enterprise!
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I also suspected that uniforms were sent to Germany, interesting as they might have been used by the Germans as in Battle of the Bulge, however see Wiki and MI 9, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MI9
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collar stud compass
Even better as it is apposite to the thread (for a change) but this link shows a button stud compass. With attached collars a chance would have been lost:
A Husband's Most Secret War in MI9 IS9 - Home
A Husband's Most Secret War in MI9 IS9 - Home
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It seems to be the universal experience that the KD issued in UK was rubbish. Mine (in WWII) was poorly cut, the drill had no guts, the shorts hung baggily below the knee and the khaki faded after two or three dhobis into a pale sickly yellow. The first thing people did after landing in Bombay was to chuck this stuff out, after getting kit made to measure for a couple of rupees (24 hr service) by a dherzi in the nearest bazaar.
I'm surprised that this Thread has run so far without mention of the Gabardine Swine. As the story reached us, Staff Officers in Cairo took to having tunics and slacks made up in thin dark khaki gabardine in place of the official KD. This hung far better, was more elegant and more pleasing to the ladies.
Desert Rats coming into town hot, grubby and thirsty from chasing Rommel round the Western Desert, beheld these apparitions and promptly christened them in this way. I have never been able to get chapter and verse to back this up until now:
I'm surprised that this Thread has run so far without mention of the Gabardine Swine. As the story reached us, Staff Officers in Cairo took to having tunics and slacks made up in thin dark khaki gabardine in place of the official KD. This hung far better, was more elegant and more pleasing to the ladies.
Desert Rats coming into town hot, grubby and thirsty from chasing Rommel round the Western Desert, beheld these apparitions and promptly christened them in this way. I have never been able to get chapter and verse to back this up until now:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...TfefNxXwyxzNzT
P.18
The men facing death at the front referred to the pen pushers at Grey Pillars by such scornful appellations as the Gabardine Swine, or Groppi's Light Horse, or the Short Range Shepheard's Group, a contribution by Michael Crichton, whom we will meet later, (for before becoming a Gabardine Swine himself he had been involved with the legendary force Long Range Desert Group).
P.18
The men facing death at the front referred to the pen pushers at Grey Pillars by such scornful appellations as the Gabardine Swine, or Groppi's Light Horse, or the Short Range Shepheard's Group, a contribution by Michael Crichton, whom we will meet later, (for before becoming a Gabardine Swine himself he had been involved with the legendary force Long Range Desert Group).
Much, much more recently I obtaied KD ( or stone grey as it is called now) amd was issued it through Supply at Northolt. The Serbice,Dress is of such lightweight fabric that it has as much form as a chrisp packet. I've ended up splashing out not an inconsiderable sum with the terzi and,had one made of a decent fabric. Similarly, both White Mess Jacket and No 6A have been locally source because the contractor- provided are so poorly made. My job is. Or at least has been representational so looking art is a key element.
But the best thung was getting my great coat refurnished, compleye with a red silk lining - allfor about £20! But,it,looks like i might,not,be,needing it for,much longer, depending on a Medical Board outcome
But the best thung was getting my great coat refurnished, compleye with a red silk lining - allfor about £20! But,it,looks like i might,not,be,needing it for,much longer, depending on a Medical Board outcome
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Back to the issue kit in 1960, we were issued two sets of socks. One thick and indestructible for wearing with boots. One lightweight for wearing with shoes. I put them on the first time, pulled them tight and the ribbed top came off. The socks had all been made in 1951.
I bought a new set of nylon ones, can't remember where, and one pair was still going strong after 50 years.
I bought a new set of nylon ones, can't remember where, and one pair was still going strong after 50 years.
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On my way to FI in 1983, I was kitted out at Innsworth with KD at HM expense [on loan]. This vital addition to my travelling wardrobe of ever-increasing weight was to enable me to be properly dressed during my transit through ASI.
Having been disgorged from the VC-10 [wearing DPM/green kit, IIRC], I actually spent about 30 minutes at ASI before being led onto an RN helicopter and air-delivered to the SS Uganda [anchored off-shore]. There I spent 2-3 days bobbing around 'on the hook' whilst loading of personnel and stores was completed, immaculate-ish in my KD. When we eventually sailed, it was straight into DPM/green once more, and the KD was never seen again until returned to Stores some months later.
I always thought the RAF might just have gone a wee bit OTT on this one.
Having been disgorged from the VC-10 [wearing DPM/green kit, IIRC], I actually spent about 30 minutes at ASI before being led onto an RN helicopter and air-delivered to the SS Uganda [anchored off-shore]. There I spent 2-3 days bobbing around 'on the hook' whilst loading of personnel and stores was completed, immaculate-ish in my KD. When we eventually sailed, it was straight into DPM/green once more, and the KD was never seen again until returned to Stores some months later.
I always thought the RAF might just have gone a wee bit OTT on this one.
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MPN, in contrast, the following year we had to fly in civvies for the flag stop at Dakar and while allowed to disembark during refueling we were required to hang around on the edge of the apron near the rotten fish along the shore.
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Yes, we we did the f[l]ag stop there too 
... ISTR our hanging around in uniform triggered a policy change. I'm sure I travelled in DPM (pissibly).
... ISTR our hanging around in uniform triggered a policy change. I'm sure I travelled in DPM (pissibly).
As a baby MetMan arriving at RAF Nicosia on April 1st 1961 I was ordered downtown by S Met O to the tailor of choice.
KD: 4 shirts, military style, three shorts, three longs. We were permitted socks of choice, to distinguish us from serving RAF, but my long red climbing socks were banned rather early in the tour. I was the first arrival NOT to be issued with a handgun, as EOKA had more or less been sorted.
They subsequently made the Guide Captain uniforms for my child bride, excellent material and fit [Girls in uniforms .............. !!]
My KD was absolutely superb, and it lasted and lasted and lasted. The final shirt bit the dust in RAF Guetersloh c. 1971.
KD: 4 shirts, military style, three shorts, three longs. We were permitted socks of choice, to distinguish us from serving RAF, but my long red climbing socks were banned rather early in the tour. I was the first arrival NOT to be issued with a handgun, as EOKA had more or less been sorted.
They subsequently made the Guide Captain uniforms for my child bride, excellent material and fit [Girls in uniforms .............. !!]
My KD was absolutely superb, and it lasted and lasted and lasted. The final shirt bit the dust in RAF Guetersloh c. 1971.