Typhoon?
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Typhoon?
I am largely unsighted and out of touch with the rationale (standby for banter), but why, when we have a multi-role, multi million pound aircraft are they not deployed on Op Shader when they did deploy for a limited period to Ellamy. It's rather unpalatable to justify their lack of involvement if we don't have enough/serviceability to cover QRA and an Op Deployment. This isn't trolling this is a genuine question. If it's just that it's the sensible abrogation of resources then I understand but if it's not what message does that send when SDSR is just round the corne? Any thoughts?
The air-to-ground capability which Typhoon used on ELLAMY, and which still exists today, is basic: Paveway II and Enhanced PW2 only. These have 1000lb warheads and the fuses are not programmable (for airburst, variable delay, etc) from the cockpit, which reduces flexibility especially when targeting in built-up areas. By contrast the PW4 has a smaller warhead and cockpit-programmable features.
As downsizer says, advanced weapons like PW4, Brimstone and Storm Shadow are not fully operational on Typhoon yet. To answer the obvious follow-up question, they will be, in time for Tornado's planned retirement. PW4 has been trialled and Storm Shadow has recently had its first flight. Only Tranche 2 and later aircraft will be able to carry any of those weapons, and those aircraft are still in delivery. Even if enough PW4-capable aircraft could be mustered today, there's no prospect of Brimstone capability until much nearer Tornado's retirement date - and given how critical that weapon is, it will determine Typhoon's deployability on SHADER.
Why is it taking so long to get the weapons integrated? Answer: the other partner nations do not have the same degree of interest in adding air-to-ground capability to Typhoon. Some of them bought it purely as an air-to-air platform. Getting UK-specific weapons into the multinational programme of works requires give-and-take with other nations' priorities. The only way to do it quicker would be to go UDI with the desired configurations, but the aircraft would then be outside the master programme and (presumably) much more expensive to administer. With a cynical hat on, I could observe that the status quo protects Tornado quite nicely in SDSR. Deletion would be on the cards if Typhoon was already capable of augmenting it!
Also, Typhoon does more than just QRA - don't forget the Falklands and a recurring NATO commitment in the Baltics. They probably do have the capacity for more, but until they have the capability, there is not much point.
As downsizer says, advanced weapons like PW4, Brimstone and Storm Shadow are not fully operational on Typhoon yet. To answer the obvious follow-up question, they will be, in time for Tornado's planned retirement. PW4 has been trialled and Storm Shadow has recently had its first flight. Only Tranche 2 and later aircraft will be able to carry any of those weapons, and those aircraft are still in delivery. Even if enough PW4-capable aircraft could be mustered today, there's no prospect of Brimstone capability until much nearer Tornado's retirement date - and given how critical that weapon is, it will determine Typhoon's deployability on SHADER.
Why is it taking so long to get the weapons integrated? Answer: the other partner nations do not have the same degree of interest in adding air-to-ground capability to Typhoon. Some of them bought it purely as an air-to-air platform. Getting UK-specific weapons into the multinational programme of works requires give-and-take with other nations' priorities. The only way to do it quicker would be to go UDI with the desired configurations, but the aircraft would then be outside the master programme and (presumably) much more expensive to administer. With a cynical hat on, I could observe that the status quo protects Tornado quite nicely in SDSR. Deletion would be on the cards if Typhoon was already capable of augmenting it!
Also, Typhoon does more than just QRA - don't forget the Falklands and a recurring NATO commitment in the Baltics. They probably do have the capacity for more, but until they have the capability, there is not much point.
Last edited by Easy Street; 17th Nov 2015 at 17:33.
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Avtur,
No information here that ISIS can use for anything other then knowing for a fact, that the stuff that just hit them was not dropped by a Typhoon.....
No information here that ISIS can use for anything other then knowing for a fact, that the stuff that just hit them was not dropped by a Typhoon.....
If it had slipped ISIL's attention that there are no Typhoons in Akrotiri, and they had missed all the news coverage of the repeated extensions of the third Tornado squadron (why bother if Typhoon was ready?), then I'm sure they will have missed the NAO's Major Projects Report, which lays out in excruciating detail the cost and timeline of the aforementioned upgrades (pssst... including something to do with a radar... but that must actually be sensitive because it's redacted).
See page 162 onwards
Blanket stonewalling on security grounds has long since been consigned to history. Any infinitesimal value that the enemy may gain from aggregation of unclassified information must be weighed against the cost to our own side of ill-informed internal debate resulting from an information vacuum. It is important to keep our own people on-message!
See page 162 onwards
Blanket stonewalling on security grounds has long since been consigned to history. Any infinitesimal value that the enemy may gain from aggregation of unclassified information must be weighed against the cost to our own side of ill-informed internal debate resulting from an information vacuum. It is important to keep our own people on-message!
Last edited by Easy Street; 17th Nov 2015 at 22:13.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Any infinitesimal value that the enemy may gain from aggregation of unclassified information must be weighed against the cost to our own side of ill-informed internal debate resulting from an information vacuum.
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Thank you, so in effect our operational effectiveness is being hamstrung by our partners and there is a risk that we could not have a truly multi-role, multi-weapon system in time to retire Tornado. This aircraft is hardly new to the inventory and I fear this is a costly white elephant that is less capable and more needy than the aircraft it was brought in to rreplace. Thank you for the clear explanation E.S.
This aircraft is hardly new to the inventory and I fear this is a costly white elephant that is less capable and more needy than the aircraft it was brought in to rreplace. Thank you for the clear explanation E.S.
Last edited by t43562; 18th Nov 2015 at 07:52. Reason: clarify
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
There is obviously a queue for updates and while Typhoon might be nice to have now it is clearly not necessary as it would bring nothing new to the party. As said, it is employed elsewhere where the Tornado has no capability.
We could always go to the bone yard and ask the cousins for a few Harriers...
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
I fear this is a costly white elephant that is less capable and more needy than the aircraft it was brought in to replace.
And the ISIS Int O thanks you too.